For Those Who Fear They've Committed The Unpardonable Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

I think from this comment, I have figured out the reason for our disagreement, and if so, hopefully I can clear things up now? I am speaking of "professing Christians," not true born again believers. The problem is that there are people who believe they are saved, but are not. I am also coming from the standpoint of ability to do something because we have a mouth and voicebox, not ability in that we would actually be willing to do it. Of course I would never speak blasphemous words against the Holy Spirit, but I am still physically able to do so. I just wouldn't. I wouldn't have done that as a sinner, because even then, I had no hatred for God.

No, that doesn’t clear things up. It’s just a case of back-peddling on your part. You originally said that ANYONE can commit this sin. In the face of no biblical support as pointed out by not just me, but two other posters you are faced with having to modify your original position. I think you know that since you didn’t originally add this new qualifying feature to your position that we were talking about anyone including genuine Christians. I think that would have been how any other reader would have taken it. Why can’t you just admit that your original comment was wrong instead of trying pretend you meant something other than what you said?

But I will say, your modified position lends support to my point that a person who commits this sin hates God so much that they would not seek to repent, but revel in their open defiance of God. This is supported by your example below of the woman who is now a witch. She has a such a determined and purposed hated and defiance of God, she cannot be forgiven because she will not seek forgiveness. She doesn't want God's forgiveness. So nothing she is doing can or will be forgiven. You didn't agree with that, but your story below demonstrates that my point is, in fact true.

The issue is not whether or not a genuine believer as the ability, bu whether or not they havse the will to the blaspheme the Holy Spirit. My point is that there would be nothing in the heart of a genuine believer to prompt such a thing. No scriptural case can be made to say that a authenttic follower of Jesus having the spiritual capacity or will to commit this sin.

There was a woman I heard on "Coast To Coast AM" one night. She said she was once a Christian, but had turned her back on God, and now she hates him. She is openly serving the devil, and openly a witch. She said she longs for the day when she is told to depart from God and thrown into hell. Was she ever really a Christian? She did the things one does to get saved. She said a sinner's prayer. She went to church, and lived as a Christian for a time, but was she really a born again believer? I don't see how God could have cast her into hell had she died while living right, but he knew from the start she wouldn't endure, so she wasn't really one of his sheep. The same thing applies here. A professing Christian could blaspheme the Holy Spirit, but they weren't really one of Jesus' sheep in the first place. They only believed they were.

That’s interesting to see you actually admit such a thing, because when peoplpe like me who believe in Eternal Security make such an argument, people like you reject it out of hand. This lends support to the position that people who claim to be Christians, but commit egregious sins might not be believers to begin with, but only mentally assented to the Christian faith. The fact that they could forsake the Lord demonstrates that they were not saved to start with.

[Guest Butero]

. A Christian can commit the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and be lost forever.

Really? You think that a person, who had been regenerated, and now understands sin, is indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and has the mind of Christ, can in this condition, now blaspheme that same Holy Spirit?

Is it really possible, that when God gives the gift of salvation, that He doesn't really mean it, and it is only a conditional loan?

Do you really believe, that what we cannot possible earn, with a lifetime of good works, we can lose in an instance of weakness?

What are the conditions of salvation? Are those conditions non-existant if we commit a sin? Are we really chosen in eternity, only to make God a liar when He changes is mind?

More importantly, do you have a bible verse that says that Christians can commit the unpardonable sin, or is this just scripturally unfounded speculation?

Just curious, and I do not expect you to change you mind due to this post, but I wrote it hoping to undo any damage you might do to the shakey confidence that some believers might have.

On the other hand, I do not wish those who have fooled themselves into believing they are saved, to be over confident, God is faithful and no one can take a believer from His hands. No one, means no one, not people, not demons, not the devil, and not you, no one. But, if you do not act like a believer if you do not desire the things of God, if you are not seeing growth in your life, you might want to be concerned, maybe you are not wheat (the genuine article) but a tare (a self deceived counterfeit).

First of all, I am glad you realize you can't change my mind with this post. The unpardonable sin is to blaspheme or speak a word against the Holy Spirit. Anyone could theoretically open their mouth and speak a word against the Holy Spirit. That is just common sense. I believe that God knows who are his chosen before they are born, and of course they will continue, but we don't know who they are? What that means in a practical sense is we must make our calling and election sure by continuing to live for Christ, and shunning evil. What I said, if you go back and read it carefully, is that I don't believe that just because you made a confession of faith, you are no longer able to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. This is where it gets tricky. We are taught that salvation comes about because of an act we did in going to the alter and praying a sinner's prayer, but God's Word says we are saved if we are among the chosen, who were predestined to be saved. If we go to that alter, and pray that prayer, and continue, we were among the chosen, but if we fall away, we were never really one of Jesus' sheep to begin with. We only thought we were. God is not a liar, and we haven't earned our salvation. Our salvation is 100 percent in God's hands. When I said a "Christian" can blaspheme the Holy Ghost, I meant a professing Christian, just to make things clear. I don't mean the genuine sheep the Father gave to his son Jesus.

Shiloh, I didn't backpeddle on anything. This post was from early on in the thread, and it makes it clear what I meant all along. Read the next to last sentence. It states, "I meant a professing Christian, just to make things clear." I also explain my position concerning predestination and election. I don't believe in eternal security in the way you do. I believe some are chosen saved before they were created in the womb, and some were created to be lost. The real sheep will endure, and the wolves in sheep's clothing will not. That is why the woman on Coast To Coast didn't endure. She was created a servant of Satan, so she couldn't continue. I also said that while she was still living for Jesus, I believe she would have gone to heaven if she had died, but God knew she wouldn't die in that state. He allowed her to live long enough to turn her back on him. I haven't backtracked at all, and this post makes that clear.

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I didn't backpeddle on anything. This post was from early on in the thread, and it makes it clear what I meant all along.

No, it means you back peddled twice. Your original position was that anyone, including Christians, could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and you only modified your position when it was shown to be untenable. Only when confronted with the infeasibility of that position did you modify it.

Read the next to last sentence. It states, "I meant a professing Christian, just to make things clear." I also explain my position concerning predestination and election. I don't believe in eternal security in the way you do. I believe some are chosen saved before they were created in the womb, and some were created to be lost.

Neither of which the Bible teaches. When the Bible uses the word predestination it is always used in terms of what God predestines for Christians. It never uses predestination in connection with who will or will not be saved. Predestination in Romans 9 is used in terms of service, not salvation. It is talking about God choosing to use people for whatever purpose He chooses in the same way that a potter chooses the purpose a lump of clay will serve. God allowed Pharoah's heart to be hardened and he allowed Pharoah to be raised up in power so that He could demonstrate His power against Pharoah. The Pharoah who was viewed as a god of infinite power was used by God to show His truly infinte power. God did not create Pharoah just to destroy Him. That goes agaisnt everything the Bible says about God's character.

The real sheep will endure, and the wolves in sheep's clothing will not. That is why the woman on Coast To Coast didn't endure. She was created a servant of Satan, so she couldn't continue.

That is nonsense. No one is created by God to serve the devil. The Bible doesn't say any such thing and defy you to prove it does. Human beings are not actually directly "created" by God per se, any longer. The only humans directly created by God were Adam and Eve. Human beings are now pro-creations between a man and a woman. God doesn't create babies to be born of rape or incest. God guides and sustains the development of babies in the womb, but a baby comes into existence due to the consentual or non-consentual union of a man and woman. I addition, your assertion that God creates people just to send them to hell is a egregious false teaching and the product of very bad theology. You need to read your Bible better.

I also said that while she was still living for Jesus, I believe she would have gone to heaven if she had died, but God knew she wouldn't die in that state. He allowed her to live long enough to turn her back on him. I haven't backtracked at all, and this post makes that clear.

Again, none of that is borne out of any sensible or thoughtful study of the Scriptures. Do you just make this stuff up yourself?? Because the stuff you are spewing is an absolute theological trainwreck.

[Guest Butero]

Shiloh, I didn't backpeddle on anything. This post was from early on in the thread, and it makes it clear what I meant all along.

No, it means you back peddled twice. Your original position was that anyone, including Christians, could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and you only modified your position when it was shown to be untenable. Only when confronted with the infeasibility of that position did you modify it.

No I didn't. There is a big difference in modifying a position, and being unclear. I cleared up what I meant very early in this thread, and I assumed everyone had seen what I wrote? When I realized you didn't understand what I meant, I cleared it up. You can keep making this charge all you want, but it is false. It is irrevant anyway, because you know where I stand at this moment. You are not scoring any brownie points with a false accusation that I backpeddled, at least not with me.

Read the next to last sentence. It states, "I meant a professing Christian, just to make things clear." I also explain my position concerning predestination and election. I don't believe in eternal security in the way you do. I believe some are chosen saved before they were created in the womb, and some were created to be lost.

Neither of which the Bible teaches. When the Bible uses the word predestination it is always used in terms of what God predestines for Christians. It never uses predestination in connection with who will or will not be saved. Predestination in Romans 9 is used in terms of service, not salvation. It is talking about God choosing to use people for whatever purpose He chooses in the same way that a potter chooses the purpose a lump of clay will serve. God allowed Pharoah's heart to be hardened and he allowed Pharoah to be raised up in power so that He could demonstrate His power against Pharoah. The Pharoah who was viewed as a god of infinite power was used by God to show His truly infinte power. God did not create Pharoah just to destroy Him. That goes agaisnt everything the Bible says about God's character.

God himself says he raised up Pharoah to show his power. He did create Pharoah to be destroyed. Another example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the start, because that was why he was here on earth. Jesus told him he would betray him, and even how he would die. There was nothing Judas could do about it, because he was going to fulfil his destiny.

The real sheep will endure, and the wolves in sheep's clothing will not. That is why the woman on Coast To Coast didn't endure. She was created a servant of Satan, so she couldn't continue.

That is nonsense. No one is created by God to serve the devil. The Bible doesn't say any such thing and defy you to prove it does. Human beings are not actually directly "created" by God per se, any longer. The only humans directly created by God were Adam and Eve. Human beings are now pro-creations between a man and a woman. God doesn't create babies to be born of rape or incest. God guides and sustains the development of babies in the womb, but a baby comes into existence due to the consentual or non-consentual union of a man and woman. I addition, your assertion that God creates people just to send them to hell is a egregious false teaching and the product of very bad theology. You need to read your Bible better.

Judas Iscarriot was created to betray Jesus. All human beings are created by God. There are no accidents, including in the case of rape or incest. You need to read your Bible better. It says in Jeremiah 1:5, concerning the Prophet Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." It sounds like God is still doing creating there?

I also said that while she was still living for Jesus, I believe she would have gone to heaven if she had died, but God knew she wouldn't die in that state. He allowed her to live long enough to turn her back on him. I haven't backtracked at all, and this post makes that clear.

Again, none of that is borne out of any sensible or thoughtful study of the Scriptures. Do you just make this stuff up yourself?? Because the stuff you are spewing is an absolute theological trainwreck.

Not one thing in that statement was worth the time it took you to type it.

[Tinky]

Butero, please don't take this the wrong way, because I say it in the most loving spirit I can - it must be exhausting for you to work so hard to keep your salvation.

Reading you posts, (and not just on this particular thread), I get the impression that you believe no one's salvation is assured. That something as trivial as a Christian woman wearing a pair of pants puts her immortal soul in danger. That one must work, strive, slave, day in and day out, to hope to have at best, a fingertip hold on what the Lord calls a "free gift."

The fear you must feel, wracking your brain trying to recall every moment of your day - searching for that one "offense" that might put you back on the road to hell.

You must fall into your bed at night, emotionally drained, knowing the whole process will begin anew the next day.

I pray you will one day accept the rest that God offers. That you will finally come to the knowledge that salvation is all about/of Christ. Embracing that fact that He not only saved you, but He is the one who keeps you saved. That it is He who declares you already a citizen of heaven. That it is truly finished. So that then, you can really experience the joy of the Lord. Obeying Him, not because of a threat of losing your salvation, but serving Him out of a grateful heart for all that He has done.

Praying for you, my dear brother.

[Guest Butero]

Butero, please don't take this the wrong way, because I say it in the most loving spirit I can - it must be exhausting for you to work so hard to keep your salvation.

Reading you posts, (and not just on this particular thread), I get the impression that you believe no one's salvation is assured. That something as trivial as a Christian woman wearing a pair of pants puts her immortal soul in danger. That one must work, strive, slave, day in and day out, to hope to have at best, a fingertip hold on what the Lord calls a "free gift."

The fear you must feel, wracking your brain trying to recall every moment of your day - searching for that one "offense" that might put you back on the road to hell.

You must fall into your bed at night, emotionally drained, knowing the whole process will begin anew the next day.

I pray you will one day accept the rest that God offers. That you will finally come to the knowledge that salvation is all about/of Christ. Embracing that fact that He not only saved you, but He is the one who keeps you saved. That it is He who declares you already a citizen of heaven. That it is truly finished. So that then, you can really experience the joy of the Lord. Obeying Him, not because of a threat of losing your salvation, but serving Him out of a grateful heart for all that He has done.

Praying for you, my dear brother.

Thank you sister for your concern, but you are wrong. I don't live in constant fear. I believe I am saved through faith in Christ, and so long as I don't commit wilful sins, I remain saved. If I do commit a wilful transgression, I am restored by an act of confession. It is not nearly as hard as you seem to be implying? No real believer goes around wilfully sinning against Christ while calling themselves a Christian.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:7-10

Our salvation is sure so long as we continue to follow Christ and obey him. Our salvation is sure so long as we walk in the Spirit. It is not sure if we continue in wilful sin. You mentioned what I said about a woman in pants. To apply this to me, to violate Deuteronomy 22:5 would mean for me to wear a dress. I absolutely do not believe that if I wilfully disobey God's word by wearing a dress, I would go to heaven. Not only would it be a violation of Deuteronomy 22:5, but it would also be a violation of 1 Corinthians 6:9, as I would be dressing in an effiminate way, and would know better.

For if we sin wilfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain feaful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27

I pray that one day you will realize you can't go around committing wilful sins and believe you will remain saved unless you repent, because that is what scripture teaches. As a Christian, you can't choose to commit adultery, and remain saved if you die while committing the act of adultery. You can't be robbing a store, and believe you will remain saved if you die fleeing the scene. It doesn't work that way. Once we enter into his rest, we are a new creature, and we don't continue to live in sin.

One more thing I want to point out. Shiloh said that a Christian cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, because no real Christian would do such a thing. They cannot because God's Spirit is inside of them. Why wouldn't the same thing apply to other sins, like adutlery and theft? How can a true, born again believer, commit wilful sins, when they are dead to them? If you are professing to be a Christian, and living in wilful sin, maybe you aren't really saved? Perhaps you only think you are? Remember that even Shiloh, and other Baptist believers in this thread leave the door open that some believe they are saved but aren't. Where is the assurance in that?

[Tinky]

I believe I am saved through faith in Christ, and so long as I don't commit wilful sins, I remain saved. If I do commit a wilful transgression, I am restored by an act of confession.

So, do you believe that at that moment of willful sin, your salvation is lost and you must then regain it through confession of the sin?

You quoted this verse: "For if we sin wilfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain feaful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27"

You are taking that verse out of context. If you use it in the context you posted, then there is no pardon left for those who commit even one willful sin, (that includes you). There is no sacrifice left to cover the sin. If that is the case, we are all in trouble.

Do you love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength at every moment? If not, you are willfully sinning.

I am not trying to be sarcastic by asking this, but, by your own estimation, how many times have you lost and regained your salvation in your lifetime?

Oh, and what kind of sins are not "willful?"

[Guest Butero]

I believe I am saved through faith in Christ, and so long as I don't commit wilful sins, I remain saved. If I do commit a wilful transgression, I am restored by an act of confession.

So, do you believe that at that moment of willful sin, your salvation is lost and you must then regain it through confession of the sin?

You quoted this verse: "For if we sin wilfully, after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain feaful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27"

You are taking that verse out of context. If you use it in the context you posted, then there is no pardon left for those who commit even one willful sin, (that includes you). There is no sacrifice left to cover the sin. If that is the case, we are all in trouble.

Do you love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength at every moment? If not, you are willfully sinning.

I am not trying to be sarcastic by asking this, but, by your own estimation, how many times have you lost and regained your salvation in your lifetime?

Oh, and what kind of sins are not "willful?"

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost. No, I am not taking the verse out of context. When it says there remaineth no more sacrifice, it means they are not automatically under the original blood covering. It doesn't mean you are eternally lost. The reason I know I can be restored is because of this verse in 1 John 1:9.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Of course I love God with all my heart. Why would I stop loving God at times during the day? If you have kids, do you stop loving them when you cease to think about them because you get distracted doing something else?

I don't know how many times I have been saved and lost in a lifetime? I don't keep track. My concern is where I am now.

[Tinky]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

How many times will Jesus be crucified for you? He will not go back to that cross.

What you are advocating is classic works-righteousness salvation. And again - it must be exhausting for those who believe as you do. There can be no true rest.

Butero, there are numerous passages in the Bible that declares all of our sins are forgiven at repentance. All - past, present, and future.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That verse is talking about the lost. It is speaking of the forgiveness that comes with the initial acts of repentance and faith.

Again, by your estimation, how many times do you think you've lost and regained your salvation in your lifetime? Hundreds? Thousands?

[Guest shiloh357]

No I didn't. There is a big difference in modifying a position, and being unclear. I cleared up what I meant very early in this thread, and I assumed everyone had seen what I wrote? When I realized you didn't understand what I meant, I cleared it up. You can keep making this charge all you want, but it is false. It is irrevant anyway, because you know where I stand at this moment.

Fine. I will retract my accusation of backpeddling and assume that when you said “anyone” can commit you didn’t understand the all-inclusive meaning of that word. I didn’t read everything you wrote as I don’t have time to sit and read every word of every conversation between other posters.

So you don’t believe that a genuine follower can have the will or motivation to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Is that right?

God himself says he raised up Pharoah to show his power. He did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

“Raise up” and “create” don’t mean the same thing. You are reading something into the text that is not there. It doesn’t say that Pharoah was created by God. It doesn’t say that God made Pharoah to destroy Him. It says that He raised Pharoah up, made it possible for Pharoah to ascend to the throne and knowing Pharoah’s stubborn pride, He used Pharoah to demonstrate to the Children of Israel that He was more powerful than Pharaoh and all of Egypt’s gods.

Another example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the start, because that was why he was here on earth. Jesus told him he would betray him, and even how he would die. There was nothing Judas could do about it, because he was going to fulfil his destiny.

Again, you are reading too much into it. Judas had a choice. The Bible doesn’t say anything about anyone being created to go to hell. Why would a loving and merciful and just God create a person in order to send them to Hell. Sorry, but once again, you have NO biblical basis for that teaching and it really borders on heresy. What you are saying is not Biblical and is certainly not Christian.

All human beings are created by God. There are no accidents, including in the case of rape or incest.

Sorry, once again, not biblical. We are procreations, not direct creations. God does not create by means of rape. He does use sin in that way. You might as well claim that God caused the rape or caused the incest. You are really putting out of dangerous and bizzare theology.

You need to read your Bible better. It says in Jeremiah 1:5, concerning the Prophet Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." It sounds like God is still doing creating there?

Nope. I already told you that I believe God is guides and sustains the development in the womb, which is what Jeremiah is talking about. In order for your assertion to be true, God would have to ordain every marriage, he would have to ordain every sexual encounter, every out-of-wedlock birth, every rape, every other form of fornication that can produce a child. If you are going to say that every child that comes into the world is the product of the direct and perfect will of God, then you would, in order to be internally consistent, argue that every sexual encounter that produces a child, no matter how immoral or sinful is the procuct of the direct and perfect will of God, as well. Are you prepared to accept the natural and logical conclusions your assertions lead to?

Quote

Again, none of that is borne out of any sensible or thoughtful study of the Scriptures. Do you just make this stuff up yourself?? Because the stuff you are spewing is an absolute theological trainwreck.

Not one thing in that statement was worth the time it took you to type it.

It is perfectly accurate. Your claim is that she wasn’t really one His sheep, meaning that she was not a genuine believer because she failed to endure. Yet you claim that she would have gone to heaven because she lived right. That makes no sense. How can she go to heaven merely for living right if she was not really one of His sheep as you said? Your position makes absolutely no sense.

The bottom line is that if she were a genuine believer she would never have turned away in the first place. That she rejected the Lord and now looks forward to going to hell demonsrates that she was never a true believer and would have still gone to hell even though she was professing to be a Christian.