For Those Who Fear They've Committed The Unpardonable Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

All sins are "willful." Sin is not accidental. Every sin is on purpose. It is an act of rebellion against the revealed will of God.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26) The word "willfully" in this verse is an adverb. Adverbs modify the verb in a sentence. The verb is "sin" The verse is not describing a type of sin, namely a "willful sin." If the word "sin" in this passage were a noun "willful" might serve as an adjective. But that is not the case. The verse is discussing the way a person is sinning. It is not describing a particular kind of sin. As a noun any sin is "wilful" because all sins are an act of rebellion against the Lord.

The OT there were "uninentional sins" but we would classify those as "mistakes." An example of an unintentional sin would be if you were mowing your yard and your mower spit out a rock and broke your neighbor's car window. Forgetting to turn the oven off before leaving the house or losing an item you borrowed from another person would also be examples of unintentional sins or mistakes.

[Guest Butero]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

How many times will Jesus be crucified for you? He will not go back to that cross.

What you are advocating is classic works-righteousness salvation. And again - it must be exhausting for those who believe as you do. There can be no true rest.

Butero, there are numerous passages in the Bible that declares all of our sins are forgiven at repentance. All - past, present, and future.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That verse is talking about the lost. It is speaking of the forgiveness that comes with the initial acts of repentance and faith.

Again, by your estimation, how many times do you think you've lost and regained your salvation in your lifetime? Hundreds? Thousands?

He doesn't have to be crucified over and over again. The blood he shed the first time will wash away the sins I commit when I confess them, but the key is, I don't ever have to commit wilful sins. The very word "wilful" indicates I choose to do them. Nobody ever has to commit a wilful transgression.

If there are numerous passages that show God has forgiven all our future sins automatically, even the wilful ones, please post them?

Tinky, I am not playing that game with you about how many times I have been saved and lost. I could just as easily ask you if you are really saved in the first place, given the fact you said you can't go an hour without sinning. You are preaching that we should sin that grace will abound, the very thing Paul was falsely accused of doing. You are preaching a message that most eternal security advocates reject. They claim that those who hold to eternal security live just as upright as those who don't, and if you keep on sinning, you weren't really saved.

[Guest Butero]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

All sins are "willful." Sin is not accidental. Every sin is on purpose. It is an act of rebellion against the revealed will of God.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26) The word "willfully" in this verse is an adverb. Adverbs modify the verb in a sentence. The verb is "sin" The verse is not describing a type of sin, namely a "willful sin." If the word "sin" in this passage were a noun "willful" might serve as an adjective. But that is not the case. The verse is discussing the way a person is sinning. It is not describing a particular kind of sin. As a noun any sin is "wilful" because all sins are an act of rebellion against the Lord.

The OT there were "uninentional sins" but we would classify those as "mistakes." An example of an unintentional sin would be if you were mowing your yard and your mower spit out a rock and broke your neighbor's car window. Forgetting to turn the oven off before leaving the house or losing an item you borrowed from another person would also be examples of unintentional sins or mistakes.

I am going to deal with this simple post first, and go back to the other one. There most certainly is a difference in a wilful sin and one done unintentionally. One is done with thought, and one is not. One is pre-meditated and one is not. You can actually commit a sin and not even know you did it at the time. The OT refers to intentional sins as those done presumptuously.

[Tinky]

He doesn't have to be crucified over and over again. The blood he shed the first time will wash away the sins I commit when I confess them, but the key is, I don't ever have to commit wilful sins. The very word "wilful" indicates I choose to do them. Nobody ever has to commit a wilful transgression.

Shiloh, addressed that in his post. All sin is willful, even those you "occasionally" commit.

Tinky, I am not playing that game with you about how many times I have been saved and lost.

It's not a game. I am very serious. Since you believe committing one sin damns you once again, I'm extremely interested in how many times your name has been written and then erased in the Lamb's Book Of Life.

I could just as easily ask you if you are really saved in the first place, given the fact you said you can't go an hour without sinning.

Again, we are sinning when we don't love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength - do you do that every hour of every day, Butero? And you never did answer the scripture about the apostle Paul's struggle with sin. By your reckoning, Paul was saved then lost numerous times.

You are preaching that we should sin that grace will abound

Should sin? Just where did I EVER say we should sin? You just told a lie about me, Butero. You sinned. Did you just lose your salvation again?

I say that not with sarcasm. I simply want you to see with your own eyes, in black and white, what it is that you actually believe.

Can't you see the error in what you are advocating??? Please reconsider! You are heaping glory upon yourself for you supposed sinless lifestyle, by doing the "work" yourself for your salvation. Can't you simply rest in the assurance of God's gift? A gift that can't be earned, nor kept, by your works?

Butero, Scripture condemns you when it says that if you claim you are without sin, you are deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you. (1 John 1:8)

Our sinful nature does not vanish when we become saved. We will wrestle with it, and we will, unfortunately, sin. Just like Paul, just like me - and just like you. But, praise God, it's power over our eternal destiny was crucified with Christ on the cross. It doesn't have complete control of our lives, as it did when we were lost.

Praying that you eyes will be opened, dear brother!

[Guest Butero]

So you don’t believe that a genuine follower can have the will or motivation to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Is that right?

Not the true Christians that God has created to be saved. I do believe a professing Christian could blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

God himself says he raised up Pharoah to show his power. He did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

“Raise up” and “create” don’t mean the same thing. You are reading something into the text that is not there. It doesn’t say that Pharoah was created by God. It doesn’t say that God made Pharoah to destroy Him. It says that He raised Pharoah up, made it possible for Pharoah to ascend to the throne and knowing Pharoah’s stubborn pride, He used Pharoah to demonstrate to the Children of Israel that He was more powerful than Pharaoh and all of Egypt’s gods.

God is all knowing, right? God had to know what Pharoah would become, right? God himself said he hardened Pharoah's heart, not Pharoah's heart became hard on it's own, right? There is a fine line here, but if God knew all of that, and God himself chose to harden Pharoah's heart, he did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

Another example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the start, because that was why he was here on earth. Jesus told him he would betray him, and even how he would die. There was nothing Judas could do about it, because he was going to fulfil his destiny.

Again, you are reading too much into it. Judas had a choice. The Bible doesn’t say anything about anyone being created to go to hell. Why would a loving and merciful and just God create a person in order to send them to Hell. Sorry, but once again, you have NO biblical basis for that teaching and it really borders on heresy. What you are saying is not Biblical and is certainly not Christian.

God knows everything, right? God knew Judas would betray Christ, even while creating him, right? Jesus even told Judas he would betray him, and OT scripture prophesied of the end of Judas, right? Where is the free will in that?

All human beings are created by God. There are no accidents, including in the case of rape or incest.

Sorry, once again, not biblical. We are procreations, not direct creations. God does not create by means of rape. He does use sin in that way. You might as well claim that God caused the rape or caused the incest. You are really putting out of dangerous and bizzare theology.

It is like a person who writes a novel. They create characters, both good and bad. They write a story line that has both good and evil, and the struggle between both. God created everything we see, and knew the beginning and the end when he created it. He created Lucifer, and nobody can convince me God didn't know what he would become? God knows the number of hairs on one's head. God has laid out his entire plan for man, and I am supposed to think he allows someone to accidentally come into being, and never knew what those people would do? It was all by chance? If that was the case, then we could theoretically thwart his will, and avoid the end times judgment by our actions, but that is not possible, anymore than Peter was able to avoid denying Christ after Jesus said he would do so.

You need to read your Bible better. It says in Jeremiah 1:5, concerning the Prophet Jeremiah, "Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee, and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." It sounds like God is still doing creating there?

Nope. I already told you that I believe God is guides and sustains the development in the womb, which is what Jeremiah is talking about. In order for your assertion to be true, God would have to ordain every marriage, he would have to ordain every sexual encounter, every out-of-wedlock birth, every rape, every other form of fornication that can produce a child. If you are going to say that every child that comes into the world is the product of the direct and perfect will of God, then you would, in order to be internally consistent, argue that every sexual encounter that produces a child, no matter how immoral or sinful is the procuct of the direct and perfect will of God, as well. Are you prepared to accept the natural and logical conclusions your assertions lead to?

It doesn't say he guided and sustained the development of Jeremiah. God said he knew him before he created him in the womb. You have completely altered what it says in the text. That alone gives me reason not to respond to the rest of your comments, but I will anyway. Nothing happens by accident. Everything that happens does so because God set it up to happen as it did. We don't always understand the why, but it is true. How can mankind think they can do something God doesn't want them to do? God created Adam and Eve in the garden, and placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in that garden. Did he know they would disobey him? I believe he did. To one of the churches in Revelation, God tells them they will suffer all kinds of things, including the death of many, but tells them to endure to the end. Could God have stopped that? Certainly, but he didn't. Did God know the people that would persecute the church would do so when he created them, (or in your belief system, allowed them to come into being and live long enough to persecute the church) and let it happen?

Again, none of that is borne out of any sensible or thoughtful study of the Scriptures.

Do you just make this stuff up yourself?? Because the stuff you are spewing is an absolute theological trainwreck.

Not one thing in that statement was worth the time it took you to type it.

It is perfectly accurate. Your claim is that she wasn’t really one His sheep, meaning that she was not a genuine believer because she failed to endure. Yet you claim that she would have gone to heaven because she lived right. That makes no sense. How can she go to heaven merely for living right if she was not really one of His sheep as you said? Your position makes absolutely no sense.

As I said, that statement wasn't worth the time you spent typing it. It doesn't do anything to advance your argument, and what am I supposed to do with a comment like that? Am I supposed to insult you back, like a child on the school playground?

What I said makes sense if you understand where I am coming from? You might not agree, but it makes sense. The key is will that person endure? Did God create them to endure? If you follow God's plan of salvation, God isn't going to cast you away if you live for him. In that way, had she died while she was living for Jesus, she would not have been a castaway. Problem is, God didn't create her to be saved, so he allowed her to live long enough to turn her back on him. It is not where you begin that matters, but where you end. Because God knew in his mind she would backslide and turn on him, she was never really his. This is not because she wasn't sincere for a time.

The bottom line is that if she were a genuine believer she would never have turned away in the first place. That she rejected the Lord and now looks forward to going to hell demonsrates that she was never a true believer and would have still gone to hell even though she was professing to be a Christian.

I just answered that.

[Guest Butero]

He doesn't have to be crucified over and over again. The blood he shed the first time will wash away the sins I commit when I confess them, but the key is, I don't ever have to commit wilful sins. The very word "wilful" indicates I choose to do them. Nobody ever has to commit a wilful transgression.

Shiloh, addressed that in his post. All sin is willful, even those you "occasionally" commit.

Tinky, I am not playing that game with you about how many times I have been saved and lost.

It's not a game. I am very serious. Since you believe committing one sin damns you once again, I'm extremely interested in how many times your name has been written and then erased in the Lamb's Book Of Life.

I could just as easily ask you if you are really saved in the first place, given the fact you said you can't go an hour without sinning.

Again, we are sinning when we don't love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength - do you do that every hour of every day, Butero? And you never did answer the scripture about the apostle Paul's struggle with sin. By your reckoning, Paul was saved then lost numerous times.

You are preaching that we should sin that grace will abound

Should sin? Just where did I EVER say we should sin? You just told a lie about me, Butero. You sinned. Did you just lose your salvation again?

I say that not with sarcasm. I simply want you to see with your own eyes, in black and white, what it is that you actually believe.

Can't you see the error in what you are advocating??? Please reconsider! You are heaping glory upon yourself for you supposed sinless lifestyle, by doing the "work" yourself for your salvation. Can't you simply rest in the assurance of God's gift? A gift that can't be earned, nor kept, by your works?

Butero, Scripture condemns you when it says that if you claim you are without sin, you are deceiving yourself, and the truth is not in you. (1 John 1:8)

Our sinful nature does not vanish when we become saved. We will wrestle with it, and we will, unfortunately, sin. Just like Paul, just like me - and just like you. But, praise God, it's power over our eternal destiny was crucified with Christ on the cross. It doesn't have complete control of our lives, as it did when we were lost.

Praying that you eyes will be opened, dear brother!

Tinky, you have been playing games with me from the start. You are trying to make my positions look silly so you can discredit me. I did not bear false witness against you. Your doctrine is that we are all going to sin, that grace will abound. You said we can't help it. I am saying you can help it, and that we don't sin every hour of every day, and you make out like I am the one who is confused and have a problem. I will admit that the way I worded what I said came across like I was saying you are telling us we should sin, but that was not a wilful sin on my part. I just wasn't clear about what I meant. Even if it was a sin, as you suggest, it certainly wasn't wilful, and it actually provides me with an example of a sin that was not wilful, if it was a sin at all? I read what Shiloh said about wilful sins, and he is wrong.

Come on Tinky! I don't love God with my whole heart one minute, and fail to do so the next? How many times do you do that in a given day? How many times have you done that since you were saved? You either love God or you don't?

I am not heaping any glory on myself for claiming I can live sinless. Talk about a false accusation! I even stated I had sinned in my life, and I don't claim absolute sinless perfection now. I said I haven't sinned, that I know of, at least going back to yesterday morning, which is more than a day, and I am supposed to glory in that? The Bible says that when we have done all that the Lord commands us, we are but unprofitable servants, as that is our duty. How can I glory in doing the bear minimum? How can I glory in doing something numerous Christians are doing everyday? Nobody, and I repeat nobody, has to ever commit a "wilful" sin. I don't believe that every Christian sins every hour of every day, neither do I believe their love for God comes and goes on an hourly basis, neither do I believe it is prideful to say that.

BTW, what exactly do I need my eyes opened to? That I can accept that I can't help but sin every hour of every day, and that I can't love God all the time, and that I can feel secure and good about that?

I am adding this comment. Wasn't it you that once said that we can't really know God's grace until we abuse it? If you want, I will go back and see if I can find it, but I am pretty sure that was you? If it was, my original comments were not even incorrect about sinning that grace would abound.

[Guest shiloh357]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

All sins are "willful." Sin is not accidental. Every sin is on purpose. It is an act of rebellion against the revealed will of God.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26) The word "willfully" in this verse is an adverb. Adverbs modify the verb in a sentence. The verb is "sin" The verse is not describing a type of sin, namely a "willful sin." If the word "sin" in this passage were a noun "willful" might serve as an adjective. But that is not the case. The verse is discussing the way a person is sinning. It is not describing a particular kind of sin. As a noun any sin is "wilful" because all sins are an act of rebellion against the Lord.

The OT there were "uninentional sins" but we would classify those as "mistakes." An example of an unintentional sin would be if you were mowing your yard and your mower spit out a rock and broke your neighbor's car window. Forgetting to turn the oven off before leaving the house or losing an item you borrowed from another person would also be examples of unintentional sins or mistakes.

I am going to deal with this simple post first, and go back to the other one. There most certainly is a difference in a wilful sin and one done unintentionally. One is done with thought, and one is not. One is pre-meditated and one is not. You can actually commit a sin and not even know you did it at the time. The OT refers to intentional sins as those done presumptuously.

Wrong. The Bible doesn't treat sin that way. It is also rather strange you would say that. How does a Christian murder, lie, steal, gossip, lust, cheat, commit adultery, fornicate, take the Lord's Name in vain, covet, etc. and not even know they did it at the time?

Unintentional sins are not "sins" in the primary sense. They are what we call in our modern vernacular, "mistakes." If I injure someone uninentionally through a careless or thoughtless act, it is not the same as a malicious act. I still have to make restitution according to Scripture, but it is not a "sin" in the same way murder or stealing or adultery are sins.

Again, you need to look at the grammatical structure of Heb. 10;26. It is using "sin" as a verb, meaning that "willful" is not an adjective describing a kind of sin. It is an adverb that tells us the manner of how the verb is carried out. The writer of Hebrews is talking to Jews who are facing the temptation to remain living within the framework of the OT economy. His point is that if they deliberately remain in that system, if they "wilfully" sin by knowingly rejecting the once-for-all sin offering (Heb. 10: 10-14) and the new and living way provided by Jesus' offering of Himself, (Heb. 10: 19-22), there remains nothing but the fearful expectation of judgment.

The context has nothing to do with defining or marking off a particular kind of sin. It is not a case of commiting willful sins as opposed to some other kind of sin. You need to actually read the context of the full chapter and mabye take a class on basic grammar.

[Guest shiloh357]

Not the true Christians that God has created to be saved. I do believe a professing Christian could blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

God himself says he raised up Pharoah to show his power. He did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

Ah yes, the Butero-cized hybrid version of Calvinism. Butero, even mainstream Calvinists do not claim that God creates people to be saved or destroyed. If you are going to espouse Calvinism, you need to at least study it well enough to correctly frame the doctrine. I can’t imagine any mainstream Calvinist that would not be embarrassed by your version of Calvinism.

God is all knowing, right? God had to know what Pharoah would become, right? God himself said he hardened Pharoah's heart, not Pharoah's heart became hard on it's own, right? There is a fine line here, but if God knew all of that, and God himself chose to harden Pharoah's heart, he did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

Another example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the start, because that was why he was here on earth. Jesus told him he would betray him, and even how he would die. There was nothing Judas could do about it, because he was going to fulfil his destiny.

God hardened Pharoah’s heart, but not until Pharoah had already made His choice to reject God’s demand. God hardened Pharoah’s heart in the same way the sun will harden a block of clay. The same heat from the sun will melt a block of wax. It is not that the sun purposed to melt one and harden the other. Rather, it is the properties of the clay and wax that determine how they respond to the sun’s heat. The same God who hardened Pharoah’s heart, melted the heart of King David. David had a different heart and when confronted by God, David repented. God did not force David to repent, but force Pharoah to remain inpenitent. That is simply not a tenable theology.

The glaring problem with your assertions in both the case of Judas and Pharoah is that your assertions contradict the justness of God. To claim that God creates people to send them to hell is not only unbiblical, as the Bible makes no such claims, it also forces God to be unjust. To create people in order to destroy them makes God responsible for their rejection of Him. It means God created them with the desire and intent that they would hate/reject Him. All of their sin and rebellion would be the will of God and that makes no sense given how much God hates sin. To be internally consistent you would have to claim that God intended for man to fall in the Garden, that God intended for sin to exist so that He could have people to destroy. Sorry, but you are not going to sell that bill of goods on this board. Again, I think that most mainstream Calvinists would do everything in their power to distance themselves from your approach to Calvinism.

It is like a person who writes a novel. They create characters, both good and bad. They write a story line that has both good and evil, and the struggle between both. God created everything we see, and knew the beginning and the end when he created it. He created Lucifer, and nobody can convince me God didn't know what he would become? God knows the number of hairs on one's head. God has laid out his entire plan for man, and I am supposed to think he allows someone to accidentally come into being, and never knew what those people would do? It was all by chance? If that was the case, then we could theoretically thwart his will, and avoid the end times judgment by our actions, but that is not possible, anymore than Peter was able to avoid denying Christ after Jesus said he would do so.

But this is not like God is writing a Novel. God is not creating characters to be good and bad. The analogy doesn’t fit. Life is not a Novel God is writing where he controls every word we speak and every act we perform. The Bible reveals a God who has set before us life and death and asks us to choose life (Deut.30:19) He doesn’t force anything upon us.

God is all knowing but that doesn’t mean there are no accidents God is all-knowing and knows everyone who will ever be born, but that doesn’t mean that God engineered the rape or incest, it doesn’t mean that God intended the rape or incest to occur in order to bring a fore-known person into existence. Again, that is simply untenable. There are people who subscribe to hyper-sovereignty and they believe that God does in fact, will rapes and other sins because they believe that God controls every action we take. Again, something that the Bible doesn’t say.

That babies are born out-of-wedlock or by means of rape or incest doesn’t mean they were accidents or the product of chance. Chance had nothing to do with it. Human choices were involved and God allows us to make choices that go against His will. Rape and incest don’t happen by chance, but are the product of sin. It’s not a case of “chance vs. God’s will.” Human agency is involved and that bring sin into equation.

There are some events, future prophetic events that are unavoidable and inevitable, to be sure, but that doesn’t mean that there are not thing that God allows us to choose. God allows us to choose when and who we marry, what kind of house to live in. We can choose how many children to have. Our right to choose in some areas doesn’t negate God overall control of the universe and His control over future events He has set according to His good pleasure. So your assertion that we can avoid the end times is simply not viable.

It doesn't say he guided and sustained the development of Jeremiah. God said he knew him before he created him in the womb. You have completely altered what it says in the text.

It is not attributing any creative act to God at all. The fact is that Adam and Eve were directly created by God and they are the only humans with that unique distinction. God guides the biological processes involved in pro-creation, but there are no human beings that are directly created by God. That is a fact that you simply can’t dispute. You might as well argue that the moon is made of cheese. The description given in Jeremiah is one of God forming in the womb was already there due to the pro-creative actions of Jeremiah’s parents. It wasn’t an emaculate conception.

That alone gives me reason not to respond to the rest of your comments, but I will anyway. Nothing happens by accident.

I agree. I never claimed anyone is an accident. I don’t claim that rape or incests are accidents, but neither are they result of God’s will. The fact that human agency is involved in bring people into the world precludes such from ever being accidental.

Everything that happens does so because God set it up to happen as it did. We don't always understand the why, but it is true.

Everything??? Are saying this in an absolute manner? Does everything mean everything, or is this going to be like your use of “Aanybody” where it doesn’t really mean what you meant when you are suddenly faced with information that pretty torpedoes your assertion?

Are you saying that every rape, act of adultery, murder, act of child molestation, every sin including the fall of Adam was set up by God to happen??? Is that really where you want to go???

How can mankind think they can do something God doesn't want them to do?

God wants mankind to murder, be unfaithful to their spouses, beat their children, cheat on their taxes, lie, steal, commit homosexuality??? God wants them to do those things? Can you show me the Scriptures that back that up??

God created Adam and Eve in the garden, and placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in that garden. Did he know they would disobey him? I believe he did. To one of the churches in Revelation, God tells them they will suffer all kinds of things, including the death of many, but tells them to endure to the end. Could God have stopped that? Certainly, but he didn't. Did God know the people that would persecute the church would do so when he created them, (or in your belief system, allowed them to come into being and live long enough to persecute the church) and let it happen?

There is a difference between God knowing what will happened and allowing to happen and saying that mankind can’t do anything that God doesn’t want them to do. Sorry, Butero, but you have some really bizarre and dangerous theology, there.

What I said makes sense if you understand where I am coming from? You might not agree, but it makes sense.

For centuries people believed the earth was flat. They were wrong, but it made sense to them. I am not interested in what makes sense to the carnal mind. I am interested here in biblical truth.

The key is will that person endure? Did God create them to endure? If you follow God's plan of salvation, God isn't going to cast you away if you live for him.

God doesn’t save us because we live for Him. We are not saved because we live for Him. We are saved by His grace. We are not saved because we “endure.” We are saved because God is faithful to His promises and will never rescind them. The Bible says in Rom. 6:23 that salvation is a gift. Gifts are not earned. Salvation is not a prize, it is not a reward, and it is not a wage. Salvatoin is a 100% free gift to anyone who is willing to be saved. Peter wrote that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all would come to repentance (II Peter.3:9)

Continued on post below

[Guest shiloh357]

In that way, had she died while she was living for Jesus, she would not have been a castaway.

She was never a believer to begin with. Being a castaway according to Paul is in connection to ministry not salvation. Paul in that chapter was talking about living in a manner that was consistent with his preaching in order not to be disqualified from service. That is how it is presented in the context:

1 Corinthians 9:19-27

¹⁹For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.

²⁰To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

²¹To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

²²To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

²³I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

²⁴Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.

²⁵Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

²⁶So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.

²⁷But I discipline my body and keep it under control,^£ lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Problem is, God didn't create her to be saved, so he allowed her to live long enough to turn her back on him. It is not where you begin that matters, but where you end. Because God knew in his mind she would backslide and turn on him, she was never really his. This is not because she wasn't sincere for a time.

There are people who live sincerely in their religiosity, but don’t know Christ. They love to sing in the choir, teach a class, participate in the activities, etc. but being sincere isn’t necessarily an indication of genuine faith. God didn’t create her to go to hell. That is the problem with your bizarre version of Calvinism. In Calvinism, those who are not elect remain totally depraved. They cannot muster up any desire to live for the Lord They cannot choose God due to their depravity. In Calvinism, the heart of a person must be first regenerated in order to be able to respond to the call to salvation. Calvinism doesn’t contain this notion of a person living for the Lord but failing to endure. In Calvinism, no one fails to endure because they are chosen by God and God’s choice cannnot be rescinded.

What you call “enduring” Calvinists refer to as, “the perserverence of the saints.” Calvinsim doesn’t teach that God creates people to go to hell. They teach that God chooses those who will be saved. They teach that this choice is from the eternal past. They do not teach that God creates everyone else to go to hell. That is something YOU have made up.

While I don’t agree with Calvinism, at least I can frame the doctrine better than you can.

[Guest Butero]

Yes, I do believe that the moment we commit a wilful sin, we are lost.

All sins are "willful." Sin is not accidental. Every sin is on purpose. It is an act of rebellion against the revealed will of God.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, (Hebrews 10:26) The word "willfully" in this verse is an adverb. Adverbs modify the verb in a sentence. The verb is "sin" The verse is not describing a type of sin, namely a "willful sin." If the word "sin" in this passage were a noun "willful" might serve as an adjective. But that is not the case. The verse is discussing the way a person is sinning. It is not describing a particular kind of sin. As a noun any sin is "wilful" because all sins are an act of rebellion against the Lord.

The OT there were "uninentional sins" but we would classify those as "mistakes." An example of an unintentional sin would be if you were mowing your yard and your mower spit out a rock and broke your neighbor's car window. Forgetting to turn the oven off before leaving the house or losing an item you borrowed from another person would also be examples of unintentional sins or mistakes.

I am going to deal with this simple post first, and go back to the other one. There most certainly is a difference in a wilful sin and one done unintentionally. One is done with thought, and one is not. One is pre-meditated and one is not. You can actually commit a sin and not even know you did it at the time. The OT refers to intentional sins as those done presumptuously.

Wrong. The Bible doesn't treat sin that way. It is also rather strange you would say that. How does a Christian murder, lie, steal, gossip, lust, cheat, commit adultery, fornicate, take the Lord's Name in vain, covet, etc. and not even know they did it at the time?

Unintentional sins are not "sins" in the primary sense. They are what we call in our modern vernacular, "mistakes." If I injure someone uninentionally through a careless or thoughtless act, it is not the same as a malicious act. I still have to make restitution according to Scripture, but it is not a "sin" in the same way murder or stealing or adultery are sins.

Again, you need to look at the grammatical structure of Heb. 10;26. It is using "sin" as a verb, meaning that "willful" is not an adjective describing a kind of sin. It is an adverb that tells us the manner of how the verb is carried out. The writer of Hebrews is talking to Jews who are facing the temptation to remain living within the framework of the OT economy. His point is that if they deliberately remain in that system, if they "wilfully" sin by knowingly rejecting the once-for-all sin offering (Heb. 10: 10-14) and the new and living way provided by Jesus' offering of Himself, (Heb. 10: 19-22), there remains nothing but the fearful expectation of judgment.

The context has nothing to do with defining or marking off a particular kind of sin. It is not a case of commiting willful sins as opposed to some other kind of sin. You need to actually read the context of the full chapter and mabye take a class on basic grammar.

Shiloh, I really tend to agree with you here. Of course you can't kill, steal, commit adultery, etc., by mistake. They are wilful acts. A sin that is not wilful would be what you refer to as a mistake. It would be something you do without intent, that is not right in the eyes of God, I don't believe Peter meant to sin by denying the Lord, and it wasn't until he heard the cock crow he realized his sin, and went away weeping. At the same time, Judas knew exactly what he was doing when he sold the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. I don't believe "mistakes," cost you your salvation. I believe they are under the original blood covering.