For Those Who Fear They've Committed The Unpardonable Sin

[Guest shiloh357]

Shiloh, I really tend to agree with you here.

Really? I made the same point a few years ago when you brought up "willful sins" and you rejected it.

Of course you can't kill, steal, commit adultery, etc., by mistake. They are wilful acts. A sin that is not wilful would be what you refer to as a mistake. It would be something you do without intent, that is not right in the eyes of God,

Yes, just like I said above. Glad you are coming around to the truth.

I don't believe Peter meant to sin by denying the Lord, and it wasn't until he heard the cock crow he realized his sin, and went away weeping.

What makes you think that Peter didn't know he was sinning?

At the same time, Judas knew exactly what he was doing when he sold the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. I don't believe "mistakes," cost you your salvation. I believe they are under the original blood covering.

All sins are under the blood of Jesus. If they were not, you could not obtain forgiveness for them. In the phrase, "willful sin," the word "willful" is superfluous. But we are not saved on the grounds that we live right, because none of us can live right to the degree that God requies. You can keep every commandment perfectly, but all of your good deeds still bear the stain of sin. The only Person who ever lived good enough for the Father was Jesus. He was able to not only keep God's commandments, but He fulfilled the righteousness of them, which is something you cannot do.

It is the height of arrogance to think that you can live good enough to meet God's standards. It is even worse for you to think you can gain heaven by living right. Heaven belongs to those who are saved by grace, not to those who think they are maintaining their salvation by their good deeds. That is nothing short of religious vanity.

[Tinky]

Tinky, you have been playing games with me from the start. You are trying to make my positions look silly so you can discredit me.

No Butero, I haven't. I wanted this thread to be a positive one. One that was encouraging for fearful, hurting people who feel they have no hope. I simply defended my thread when you came in and tried to place people back into bondage with your works-righteousness - one sin and God will abandon you - "gospel."

Why in the world would God offer such fallible, fallen creatures a works - based salvation, Butero? Why would Jesus go through such terrible scourging, beatings, mental anguish, a humiliating, agonizing death on the cross - even to the point of abandonment by the Father whose holy eyes could not look upon a being who became sin for us - who went through all of that to purchase us back - only to basically say to mankind, "okay, here's the gift of salvation, but if you mess up even one time, I'm taking it back!"

Would God, who is love, offer us such conditional love?

How could God say He loves us, adopts us into His family, and even calls us His friends, save us - but as soon as we commit one sin, we instantly go back to being children of the devil and enemies of God?

What kind of salvation offer would allow us to bounce back and forth between the devil and Jesus?

Would even a human father tell his children he loves them yet adds, " but as soon as mess up even once, you are no longer my kids, I'll disown you, kick you out of my house, and consider you dead!" (Ephesians 2:11)

Can you actually accept a scenario where a person could be saved, but just before they suffer a fatal accident and die (such as being struck by a car) they commit a single sin and are thus cast into hell?

Is that real love?

Do you have unsaved family members or friends? Do you hang around with them and have friendly fellowship? The Bible says you shouldn't because " bad company corrupts good morals." (1 Corinthians 15:33)

By Biblical standards, being lost, they would be "bad company" because they are wicked and enemies of God. Do you keep them at arms length, Butero? Do you only witness to them and have nothing else to do with them?

I am not heaping any glory on myself for claiming I can live sinless. Talk about a false accusation!

Butero, when you claim you are keeping yourself saved by your works, you are sharing in God's glory - and He will not share His glory with another. He either gets all the glory for saving you, and keeping you saved, or you do. You are saying it is by your striving that is keeping you saved, because a sin on your part will instantly damn you again.

BTW, what exactly do I need my eyes opened to? That I can accept that I can't help but sin every hour of every day, and that I can't love God all the time, and that I can feel secure and good about that?

You are placing your feelings of security and goodness in your works - and not in the finished work of the cross.

I am adding this comment. Wasn't it you that once said that we can't really know God's grace until we abuse it?

As Paul said, "God forbid!" if we strive to sin so that grace may abound.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant by that is, we really don't appreciate how wonderful the gift of grace is, until we really mess up. We instantly become fearful - dreading the sure punishment heading our way - but then God picks us up, dusts us off, and loves us anyway. Oh, how we mourn when we sin! How we despise ourselves! How we feel so worthless and wretched! Yet God's still, small voice cuts through all of that, and reminds us of the cross. He shows us in our minds His nail scarred hands. He envelopes us with His presence and heals our souls.

And in that is known, the full power of His grace.

[Guest shiloh357]

Tinky, you have been playing games with me from the start. You are trying to make my positions look silly so you can discredit me.

No Butero, I haven't. I wanted this thread to be a positive one. One that was encouraging for fearful, hurting people who feel they have no hope. I simply defended my thread when you came in and tried to place people back into bondage with your works-righteousness - one sin and God will abandon you - "gospel."

Why in the world would God offer such fallible, fallen creatures a works - based salvation, Butero? Why would Jesus go through such terrible scourging, beatings, mental anguish, a humiliating, agonizing death on the cross - even to the point of abandonment by the Father whose holy eyes could not look upon a being who became sin for us - who went through all of that to purchase us back - only to basically say to mankind, "okay, here's the gift of salvation, but if you mess up even one time, I'm taking it back!"

Would God, who is love, offer us such conditional love?

How could God say He loves us, adopts us into His family, and even calls us His friends, save us - but as soon as we commit one sin, we instantly go back to being children of the devil and enemies of God?

What kind of salvation offer would allow us to bounce back and forth between the devil and Jesus?

Would even a human father tell his children he loves them yet adds, " but as soon as mess up even once, you are no longer my kids, I'll disown you, kick you out of my house, and consider you dead!" (Ephesians 2:11)

Can you actually accept a scenario where a person could be saved, but just before they suffer a fatal accident and die (such as being struck by a car) they commit a single sin and are thus cast into hell?

Is that real love?

Do you have unsaved family members or friends? Do you hang around with them and have friendly fellowship? The Bible says you shouldn't because " bad company corrupts good morals." (1 Corinthians 15:33)

By Biblical standards, being lost, they would be "bad company" because they are wicked and enemies of God. Do you keep them at arms length, Butero? Do you only witness to them and have nothing else to do with them?

I am not heaping any glory on myself for claiming I can live sinless. Talk about a false accusation!

Butero, when you claim you are keeping yourself saved by your works, you are sharing in God's glory - and He will not share His glory with another. He either gets all the glory for saving you, and keeping you saved, or you do. You are saying it is by your striving that is keeping you saved, because a sin on your part will instantly damn you again.

BTW, what exactly do I need my eyes opened to? That I can accept that I can't help but sin every hour of every day, and that I can't love God all the time, and that I can feel secure and good about that?

You are placing your feelings of security and goodness in your works - and not in the finished work of the cross.

I am adding this comment. Wasn't it you that once said that we can't really know God's grace until we abuse it?

As Paul said, "God forbid!" if we strive to sin so that grace my abound.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant by that is, we really don't appreciate how wonderful the gift of grace is, until we really mess up. We instantly become fearful - dreading the sure punishment heading our way - but then God picks us up, dusts us off, and loves us anyway. Oh, how we mourn when we sin! How we despise ourselves! How we feel so worthless and wretched! Yet God's still, small voice cuts through all of that, and reminds us of the cross. He shows us in our minds His nail scarred hands. He envelopes us with His presence and heals our souls.

And in that is known, the full power of His grace.

Wow... That is absolutely amazing! This is something we all need to keep in the forefront of our thinking all of the time. Very refreshing. Thanks

[Guest Butero]

BUTERONot the true Christians that God has created to be saved. I do believe a professing Christian could blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

God himself says he raised up Pharoah to show his power. He did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

SHILOH357Ah yes, the Butero-cized hybrid version of Calvinism. Butero, even mainstream Calvinists do not claim that God creates people to be saved or destroyed. If you are going to espouse Calvinism, you need to at least study it well enough to correctly frame the doctrine. I can’t imagine any mainstream Calvinist that would not be embarrassed by your version of Calvinism.

BUTEROI didn't come up with my doctrine from Calvin. I know he teaches predestination, but my doctrine is my own. I was trying to understand how to reconcile certain scriptures, so I sought the Lord about it, not Calvin. I believe Calvin was only right in part, and what I am telling you is right. You might say I fixed Calvin's errors, and gave you the truth.

God is all knowing, right? God had to know what Pharoah would become, right? God himself said he hardened Pharoah's heart, not Pharoah's heart became hard on it's own, right? There is a fine line here, but if God knew all of that, and God himself chose to harden Pharoah's heart, he did create Pharoah to be destroyed.

Another example is Judas Iscariot. Jesus knew he was the betrayer from the start, because that was why he was here on earth. Jesus told him he would betray him, and even how he would die. There was nothing Judas could do about it, because he was going to fulfil his destiny.

SHILOH357God hardened Pharoah’s heart, but not until Pharoah had already made His choice to reject God’s demand. God hardened Pharoah’s heart in the same way the sun will harden a block of clay. The same heat from the sun will melt a block of wax. It is not that the sun purposed to melt one and harden the other. Rather, it is the properties of the clay and wax that determine how they respond to the sun’s heat. The same God who hardened Pharoah’s heart, melted the heart of King David. David had a different heart and when confronted by God, David repented. God did not force David to repent, but force Pharoah to remain inpenitent. That is simply not a tenable theology

BUTEROThen why did God have to intevene at all, and actually state he hardened Pharoah's heart? Wouldn't it become hard by the laws of nature on it's own? God actually says he hardened Pharoah's heart. .

SHILOH357The glaring problem with your assertions in both the case of Judas and Pharoah is that your assertions contradict the justness of God. To claim that God creates people to send them to hell is not only unbiblical, as the Bible makes no such claims, it also forces God to be unjust. To create people in order to destroy them makes God responsible for their rejection of Him. It means God created them with the desire and intent that they would hate/reject Him. All of their sin and rebellion would be the will of God and that makes no sense given how much God hates sin. To be internally consistent you would have to claim that God intended for man to fall in the Garden, that God intended for sin to exist so that He could have people to destroy. Sorry, but you are not going to sell that bill of goods on this board. Again, I think that most mainstream Calvinists would do everything in their power to distance themselves from your approach to Calvinism.

BUTEROI am not expecting to cause everyone on these boards to accept what I said to be true. I am just telling you how things are. Yes, God did know that the man and woman would sin in the garden, and that was his intent from the start. I hate murder, but I love a good murder mystery. If I wrote a book, and created characters both good and bad, that doesn't mean that because I created evil characters to be destroyed, I suddenly love to see people killed. Look at it this way. The Bible is the handiwork of God. It is his book, and he has already written the entire thing, and knows the beginning from the end. You and I and Tinky are in this book in the mind of God somewhere, and the beginning and ending are already written. We just don't know how the end turns out, but just as Freddie Kruger couldn't change and become a good man, because the outcome was written already, neither can we change who we were designed to be.

It is like a person who writes a novel. They create characters, both good and bad. They write a story line that has both good and evil, and the struggle between both. God created everything we see, and knew the beginning and the end when he created it. He created Lucifer, and nobody can convince me God didn't know what he would become? God knows the number of hairs on one's head. God has laid out his entire plan for man, and I am supposed to think he allows someone to accidentally come into being, and never knew what those people would do? It was all by chance? If that was the case, then we could theoretically thwart his will, and avoid the end times judgment by our actions, but that is not possible, anymore than Peter was able to avoid denying Christ after Jesus said he would do so.

SHILOH357But this is not like God is writing a Novel. God is not creating characters to be good and bad. The analogy doesn’t fit. Life is not a Novel God is writing where he controls every word we speak and every act we perform. The Bible reveals a God who has set before us life and death and asks us to choose life (Deut.30:19) He doesn’t force anything upon us.

God is all knowing but that doesn’t mean there are no accidents God is all-knowing and knows everyone who will ever be born, but that doesn’t mean that God engineered the rape or incest, it doesn’t mean that God intended the rape or incest to occur in order to bring a fore-known person into existence. Again, that is simply untenable. There are people who subscribe to hyper-sovereignty and they believe that God does in fact, will rapes and other sins because they believe that God controls every action we take. Again, something that the Bible doesn’t say.

That babies are born out-of-wedlock or by means of rape or incest doesn’t mean they were accidents or the product of chance. Chance had nothing to do with it. Human choices were involved and God allows us to make choices that go against His will. Rape and incest don’t happen by chance, but are the product of sin. It’s not a case of “chance vs. God’s will.” Human agency is involved and that bring sin into equation.

There are some events, future prophetic events that are unavoidable and inevitable, to be sure, but that doesn’t mean that there are not thing that God allows us to choose. God allows us to choose when and who we marry, what kind of house to live in. We can choose how many children to have. Our right to choose in some areas doesn’t negate God overall control of the universe and His control over future events He has set according to His good pleasure. So your assertion that we can avoid the end times is simply not viable.

BUTEROIt is not a happy thought, but it is viable. How do we determine which events are unavoidable and which events are not? Take end time events. Why are they set in stone, but the meal I am eating is not? I believe that I am making decisions, but they are forordained. God decided back in the beginning that we would both be members at this message board, and discussing this topic today. He decided that I would be taking loads to Kentucky this week on my job. Nothing happens by mere chance, good or evil. One small change in our actions effects more than we realize, and if we had the kind of free will people believe we did, end time events could be changed. While I do share one thing in common with Calvin, you can't compare what I am saying with traditional Calvanists, because I didn't study Calvin to get the truth. I found it in scripture.

It doesn't say he guided and sustained the development of Jeremiah. God said he knew him before he created him in the womb. You have completely altered what it says in the text.

SHILOH357It is not attributing any creative act to God at all. The fact is that Adam and Eve were directly created by God and they are the only humans with that unique distinction. God guides the biological processes involved in pro-creation, but there are no human beings that are directly created by God. That is a fact that you simply can’t dispute. You might as well argue that the moon is made of cheese. The description given in Jeremiah is one of God forming in the womb was already there due to the pro-creative actions of Jeremiah’s parents. It wasn’t an emaculate conception.

BUTEROGod knew Jeremiah, before he formed him in the womb. He formed him in the womb using the union of his parents. Jeremiah already existed in the mind of God, and he used that marriage to bring him into being.

That alone gives me reason not to respond to the rest of your comments, but I will anyway. Nothing happens by accident.

SHILOH357I agree. I never claimed anyone is an accident. I don’t claim that rape or incests are accidents, but neither are they result of God’s will. The fact that human agency is involved in bring people into the world precludes such from ever being accidental.

BUTEROBut if God knew what we would do, through the use of our will, before we came into being a physical being, then what takes place isn't really as much free will as we think? If I have the abiliity to know what a man will do before he does it, like when the Prophet told a man that he would slaughter many of his people in the future, how is that free will? The outcome was settled.

Everything that happens does so because God set it up to happen as it did. We don't always understand the why, but it is true.

SHILOH357Everything??? Are saying this in an absolute manner? Does everything mean everything, or is this going to be like your use of “Aanybody” where it doesn’t really mean what you meant when you are suddenly faced with information that pretty torpedoes your assertion?

Are you saying that every rape, act of adultery, murder, act of child molestation, every sin including the fall of Adam was set up by God to happen??? Is that really where you want to go???

BUTEROIt is not where I "want to go." It is reality. Was it God's will that the church in Revelation would have people killed for their faith, but that they should endure to the end? Obviously it was, or God would have stopped it.

How can mankind think they can do something God doesn't want them to do?

SHILOH357God wants mankind to murder, be unfaithful to their spouses, beat their children, cheat on their taxes, lie, steal, commit homosexuality??? God wants them to do those things? Can you show me the Scriptures that back that up??

BUTEROGod uses this struggle between good and evil to bring about his ultimate will and show his power.

God created Adam and Eve in the garden, and placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in that garden. Did he know they would disobey him? I believe he did. To one of the churches in Revelation, God tells them they will suffer all kinds of things, including the death of many, but tells them to endure to the end. Could God have stopped that? Certainly, but he didn't. Did God know the people that would persecute the church would do so when he created them, (or in your belief system, allowed them to come into being and live long enough to persecute the church) and let it happen?

SHILOH357There is a difference between God knowing what will happened and allowing to happen and saying that mankind can’t do anything that God doesn’t want them to do. Sorry, Butero, but you have some really bizarre and dangerous theology, there.

BUTEROWhat I have is the truth. I sought it, and I got it. The reason it took me so long to figure it out was my own resistance to the truth, for the same reason you don't want to accept it.

What I said makes sense if you understand where I am coming from? You might not agree, but it makes sense.

SHILOH357For centuries people believed the earth was flat. They were wrong, but it made sense to them. I am not interested in what makes sense to the carnal mind. I am interested here in biblical truth.

BUTEROThen put away your pre-conceived ideas, because I gave you the Biblical truth.

The key is will that person endure? Did God create them to endure? If you follow God's plan of salvation, God isn't going to cast you away if you live for him.

SHILOH357God doesn’t save us because we live for Him. We are not saved because we live for Him. We are saved by His grace. We are not saved because we “endure.” We are saved because God is faithful to His promises and will never rescind them. The Bible says in Rom. 6:23 that salvation is a gift. Gifts are not earned. Salvation is not a prize, it is not a reward, and it is not a wage. Salvatoin is a 100% free gift to anyone who is willing to be saved. Peter wrote that God is not willing that ANY should perish, but that all would come to repentance (II Peter.3:9)

BUTEROIn reality, you are right. We are not saved by an act of the will, but Jesus won't turn away someone who follows his plan of salvation. It is just that if you are not pre-destined saved, you won't have root, and you won't endure.

BTW, why isn't everyone saved, if that scripture means what you say it does? Is God incapable of making his will come to pass? God is using our struggles to show the difference between good and evil, and that his ways are the right ways. What is taking place is a testimony to his whole creation that righteousness is superior to unrighteousness.

[Guest Butero]

Shiloh, I really tend to agree with you here.

Really? I made the same point a few years ago when you brought up "willful sins" and you rejected it.

Of course you can't kill, steal, commit adultery, etc., by mistake. They are wilful acts. A sin that is not wilful would be what you refer to as a mistake. It would be something you do without intent, that is not right in the eyes of God,

Yes, just like I said above. Glad you are coming around to the truth.

I don't believe Peter meant to sin by denying the Lord, and it wasn't until he heard the cock crow he realized his sin, and went away weeping.

What makes you think that Peter didn't know he was sinning?

At the same time, Judas knew exactly what he was doing when he sold the Lord for 30 pieces of silver. I don't believe "mistakes," cost you your salvation. I believe they are under the original blood covering.

All sins are under the blood of Jesus. If they were not, you could not obtain forgiveness for them. In the phrase, "willful sin," the word "willful" is superfluous. But we are not saved on the grounds that we live right, because none of us can live right to the degree that God requies. You can keep every commandment perfectly, but all of your good deeds still bear the stain of sin. The only Person who ever lived good enough for the Father was Jesus. He was able to not only keep God's commandments, but He fulfilled the righteousness of them, which is something you cannot do.

It is the height of arrogance to think that you can live good enough to meet God's standards. It is even worse for you to think you can gain heaven by living right. Heaven belongs to those who are saved by grace, not to those who think they are maintaining their salvation by their good deeds. That is nothing short of religious vanity.

I haven't changed on anything. I made a distinction between wilful sins and sins that are not wilful. If anything, you changed, because you are calling sins that are not intentional "mistakes." That is an acknowledgement there is a difference in wilful sins and things done in error.

We are not saved by our works. We all are saved by grace, but we can do things that will cause us to be lost again. He that doeth righteousness is righteous. That is scripture. There is nothing vain about that, and you know it, but when you can't win an argument on merit, you make false accusations like that. There is no glory in doing the mere minimum required of us. Jesus said that when we have done all we have been commanded to do, we are as unprofitable servants. There is no vanity in that. You need to find something new in the Baptist playbook.

[Guest Butero]

Tinky, you have been playing games with me from the start. You are trying to make my positions look silly so you can discredit me.

No Butero, I haven't. I wanted this thread to be a positive one. One that was encouraging for fearful, hurting people who feel they have no hope. I simply defended my thread when you came in and tried to place people back into bondage with your works-righteousness - one sin and God will abandon you - "gospel."

Why in the world would God offer such fallible, fallen creatures a works - based salvation, Butero? Why would Jesus go through such terrible scourging, beatings, mental anguish, a humiliating, agonizing death on the cross - even to the point of abandonment by the Father whose holy eyes could not look upon a being who became sin for us - who went through all of that to purchase us back - only to basically say to mankind, "okay, here's the gift of salvation, but if you mess up even one time, I'm taking it back!"

Would God, who is love, offer us such conditional love?

How could God say He loves us, adopts us into His family, and even calls us His friends, save us - but as soon as we commit one sin, we instantly go back to being children of the devil and enemies of God?

What kind of salvation offer would allow us to bounce back and forth between the devil and Jesus?

Would even a human father tell his children he loves them yet adds, " but as soon as mess up even once, you are no longer my kids, I'll disown you, kick you out of my house, and consider you dead!" (Ephesians 2:11)

Can you actually accept a scenario where a person could be saved, but just before they suffer a fatal accident and die (such as being struck by a car) they commit a single sin and are thus cast into hell?

Is that real love?

Do you have unsaved family members or friends? Do you hang around with them and have friendly fellowship? The Bible says you shouldn't because " bad company corrupts good morals." (1 Corinthians 15:33)

By Biblical standards, being lost, they would be "bad company" because they are wicked and enemies of God. Do you keep them at arms length, Butero? Do you only witness to them and have nothing else to do with them?

I am not heaping any glory on myself for claiming I can live sinless. Talk about a false accusation!

Butero, when you claim you are keeping yourself saved by your works, you are sharing in God's glory - and He will not share His glory with another. He either gets all the glory for saving you, and keeping you saved, or you do. You are saying it is by your striving that is keeping you saved, because a sin on your part will instantly damn you again.

BTW, what exactly do I need my eyes opened to? That I can accept that I can't help but sin every hour of every day, and that I can't love God all the time, and that I can feel secure and good about that?

You are placing your feelings of security and goodness in your works - and not in the finished work of the cross.

I am adding this comment. Wasn't it you that once said that we can't really know God's grace until we abuse it?

As Paul said, "God forbid!" if we strive to sin so that grace may abound.

Allow me to clarify. What I meant by that is, we really don't appreciate how wonderful the gift of grace is, until we really mess up. We instantly become fearful - dreading the sure punishment heading our way - but then God picks us up, dusts us off, and loves us anyway. Oh, how we mourn when we sin! How we despise ourselves! How we feel so worthless and wretched! Yet God's still, small voice cuts through all of that, and reminds us of the cross. He shows us in our minds His nail scarred hands. He envelopes us with His presence and heals our souls.

And in that is known, the full power of His grace.

Tinky, I have to go to work, but Lord willing I will address this post tomorrow. And no, I am not sharing in any glory because I obey God. Satan is having a field day with the church because they have bought this kind of false doctrine he has been peddling. As I said, I will try to address it later on. In the meantime, please explain to me how you can claim to be a Christian, when 1 John says Christians don't continue in sin, and you say you can't go an hour without sin?

[Tinky]

Butero: please explain to me how you can claim to be a Christian, when 1 John says Christians don't continue in sin

Butero, May 23, 3:49pm: "I even stated I had sinned in my life, and I don't claim absolute sinless perfection now."

Well then, according to your statement above, how can you claim to be a Christian?

Butero, let me say, I believe you are saved. I believe you are earnest and sincere. But I also believe you are living in error. Again, please just consider the things I am saying, and not simply dismiss them out of hand.

Blessings.

[Guest shiloh357]

I haven't changed on anything. I made a distinction between wilful sins and sins that are not wilful. If anything, you changed, because you are calling sins that are not intentional "mistakes." That is an acknowledgement there is a difference in wilful sins and things done in error.

No, I have always made the distinction between genuine sin and mistakes. You the one who keeps using the phrase "willful sins" which is a useless phrase given that all sins are done willfully. The concept of willful sins that you keep bringing up is based on a poor handling of basic English grammar.

We are not saved by our works. We all are saved by grace, but we can do things that will cause us to be lost again.

That is internally inconsistent. If we can be lost by our works, then by our works, we remain saved. That is a false gospel.

He that doeth righteousness is righteous. That is scripture. There is nothing vain about that, and you know it, but when you can't win an argument on merit, you make false accusations like that.

The word "doeth" in Greek refers to habitual practice. John's point is not that doing righteousness makes you righteous. He is saying that we can tell who is righteous by what they practice. Works of righteousness is the fruit of salvatoin, not means of obtaining or maintaining it. Salvation is a work of God alone.

There is no glory in doing the mere minimum required of us. Jesus said that when we have done all we have been commanded to do, we are as unprofitable servants. There is no vanity in that. You need to find something new in the Baptist playbook.

Who said anything about doing the minimum required? That is not even close to the point. The point is that our works play no part in bridging the gap that exists between us and God. Only God can repaire the breach. I didn't say it was vanity to do your best in serving God. You completely missed the point. My point is that it is absolute vanity to think that you are good enough to maintain one nano-second of salvation. It is also the way to hell.

[Guest shiloh357]

I didn't come up with my doctrine from Calvin. I know he teaches predestination, but my doctrine is my own. I was trying to understand how to reconcile certain scriptures, so I sought the Lord about it, not Calvin. I believe Calvin was only right in part, and what I am telling you is right. You might say I fixed Calvin's errors, and gave you the truth.

I can definitely tell it is your own doctrine, because none of it can be biblicall corroborated as you have expertly demonstrated. So by your own admittance, what I am responding to is your own concoction and not a well-reasoned explanation based on Scripture. It is your own home-made “doctrine.”

(Just as an aside, it would be really nice if you learned how to use the quote functions better, you have been here long enough to know how. Your posts get really confusing and don’t flow very well.)

Then why did God have to intevene at all, and actually state he hardened Pharoah's heart? Wouldn't it become hard by the laws of nature on it's own? God actually says he hardened Pharoah's heart. .

Yes and I explaned that. God hardened Pharoah’s heart because Pharoah was pre-disposed to being hardened. It was Pharoah’s own hardness and intransigence in the face of God’s command to let the Children of Israel go, that further hardened even more. God used that to show His power.

Your theology would have God saying, “I want Pharoah to die and I want the first born of Egypt to die and so I am going to demand Pharoah to let my people go while at the same time, force Pharoah to make a series of self-destructive decisions that culminate in the death of not only millions of Egyptians but end in the annihilation of Pharoah and his army.”

At any time, Pharoah could have changed His mind. Pharoah didn’t have to chase the Children of Israel to the Red Sea, but He did and God used that in one final demonstration of His power to the children of Israel.

I am not expecting to cause everyone on these boards to accept what I said to be true. I am just telling you how things are. Yes, God did know that the man and woman would sin in the garden, and that was his intent from the start.

So God intended for man to fall??? That is what you are saying?? God wanted the fall in the garden to happen???

It is not a happy thought, but it is viable. How do we determine which events are unavoidable and which events are not? Take end time events. Why are they set in stone, but the meal I am eating is not? I believe that I am making decisions, but they are forordained. God decided back in the beginning that we would both be members at this message board, and discussing this topic today. He decided that I would be taking loads to Kentucky this week on my job. Nothing happens by mere chance, good or evil. One small change in our actions effects more than we realize, and if we had the kind of free will people believe we did, end time events could be changed.

Sorry, but you have strayed from Scripture. That is, philosophically speaking what is known as “hard determinism.” So if an innocent girl is raped, that is what God wanted and desired to happen? What about when husband and wife lose their child to a drunk driver… You are saying that God wanted that to happen??? How do you offer comfort to those who lost children in Moore, OK the other day?? Did God desire and plan for those children to die???

While I do share one thing in common with Calvin, you can't compare what I am saying with traditional Calvanists, because I didn't study Calvin to get the truth. I found it in scripture.

No it is something you cooked up in your own mind. None of this is from Scripture.

But if God knew what we would do, through the use of our will, before we came into being a physical being, then what takes place isn't really as much free will as we think? If I have the abiliity to know what a man will do before he does it, like when the Prophet told a man that he would slaughter many of his people in the future, how is that free will? The outcome was settled.

Foreknowledge and fore-ordaining are two different concepts. God knows I will eat a cheese sandwich for dinner, but that doesn’t mean He willed it. I can know how a good friend or family member will react to certain things because I know them well enough to predict what they will do. That doesn’t mean I forced them to respond that way.

It is not where I "want to go." It is reality. .

It is not reality. This is the kind of abberrant false doctrine we get from people who go off on a lark with the Bible. It really borders on heresy. I don’t mean that as a perjorative. I mean that in the true theological sense of the term. It is a perversion of the character of God as revealed in Scripture.

God uses this struggle between good and evil to bring about his ultimate will and show his power.

That didn’t answer the question. I know that God uses the struggle between good and evil to bring about His will. You said that man can’t do anything that God doesn’t want to happen. I asked you if God wants women to be raped, children molested and so forth. Answer the question.

God created Adam and Eve in the garden, and placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in that garden. Did he know they would disobey him? I believe he did. To one of the churches in Revelation, God tells them they will suffer all kinds of things, including the death of many, but tells them to endure to the end. Could God have stopped that? Certainly, but he didn't. Did God know the people that would persecute the church would do so when he created them, (or in your belief system, allowed them to come into being and live long enough to persecute the church) and let it happen?

That God has allowed horrible things to happen doesn’t mean that He wanted those things to happen You have a very weird view of God and one that is not borne from a genuine Christian view. I would expect to be having this kind of conversation with an unbeliever.

What I have is the truth. I sought it, and I got it.

No, it is not truth. It is a very bizarre and heretical assault on God’s character especially in terms of His justness. A God that claims to be holy but ordains rape. A God who claims to be love, but creates people to destroy them and send them to hell. Your view of God is not biblical, is not Christian and should be an object of contempt for every genuine Christian who reads it.

[Guest shiloh357]

BTW, why isn't everyone saved, if that scripture means what you say it does? Is God incapable of making his will come to pass? God is using our struggles to show the difference between good and evil, and that his ways are the right ways. What is taking place is a testimony to his whole creation that righteousness is superior to unrighteousness.

God has a perfect will and a permissive will. He allows things to happen that He hates. God’s perfect will is that no one should commit murder, but He allows murder to happen. God’s perfect will is that all should come to repentance, but His permissive will allows people to reject His offer of salvation.

Love, by nature, doesn’t force itself on others. Love is meaningless if there is no choice involved. The value of love is that it is given freely without coersion. When someone has a choice and they could have picked anyone else, but they chose you, that is when love shines the brightest. God could have created a bunch of automotons if He that’s what He wanted, but He chose to create us with the ability to choose to love Him.