Captivity (exile) Rev 13:10

[iamlamad]

Montana Marv

 

 

 

I said the focus of the 70th week is on Israel and not the Church.

I am aware of what you said, however I do not believe this to be so

 

 

 

Yet I still have an unanswered question. When did the Bride/Church go from Asking for Forgiveness to Asking for Vengeance. If there is no such change in doctrine, these tribulation saints are not the Bride/Church. For they ask a question 180 degrees from what Stephen asked.

 

I don't understand what you are getting at or the point of this because it has nothing to do with the discussion as far as I can see? In any event the scripture you are referring to does not say they are "tribulation saints" The preceding scripture tells us who they are and they are those who were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held and most obviously are Christians who were martyred at some point throughout Biblical and Christian history.

 

 

 

Also, there are no Scriptures which support a mid-trib, pre-wrath or a post-trib doctrinal position.

 

I completely disagree. There is only one catching away of God's people on earth mentioned and Jesus himself told us when he would return to catch up his people on earth, ( Jews, Gentiles, "elect", "saints", "chosen", "church") in Matthew 24:29-31 whether you acknowledge it or not doesn't change that biblical fact, which is after the tribulation of those days, and just before the Day of the Lord which is Armaggedon, which is the great day of His wrath and vengence upon the wicked on earth. This is the wrath His people are not appointed to suffer from. Jesus also tells of the celestial signs that will take place at his coming to gather his people on earth at this time, which is also outlined in the OT in Joel 2:31-32

 

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS FROM ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER.

 

Joel 2:31-32

The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered;for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Notice in this two verses that the remnant of Israel are not delivered and saved during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week, as pre-trib people promote, but the remnant is delivered at the day of the LORD after the tribulation, goes into the millinium.

　

 

The cosmic signs and disturbances noted in Mathew 24 and Joel 2 correlate with one another and are the very same event and occur at the 6 seal of Revelation 6 vs.12-17

 

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind, And heaven departed as a scroll when it rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men and the rich

men, and the chief captains and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from THE WRATH OF THE LAMB:

FOR THE GREAD DAY OF HIS WRATH IS COME; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

This verse certainly confirms that that the wrath of God comes at the 6th seal, and Armageddon, which means the the 6th seal is after the tribulation period, which means this doesn't occur until after Daniel's 70th Week. This means that the wrath of God is at Armageddon, and not during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week. What could be more descriptive of the post-tribulation period than, "every mountain and island were moved out of their places," which is a catastrophic event that could not occur within the Daniel's 70th Week (tribulation period) because it amounts to a complete destruction of civilization itself?

 

 

 

Jesus the Son would know the timing of the Rapture, which He does not.

 

Think about what you wrote. You are implying that Jesus is coming to catch away His people on earth at a pre trib rapture event, but Jesus doesn't know when He is going to catch away His people. How can this possibly be.   When Jesus is God and knows all things, and most certainly the timing of His coming to catch away His people after the tribulation of those days, just as he said?

　

Jesus himself said written in Revelation Ch. 16:15 just before he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Ar-ma-ged-don (16:16)----->>

 

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

Our Lord is telling us right in the above verse when He is coming for his people, and again, it is after tribulation of those days, after Daniel's 70th Week, and just before Armageddon. After this, in verse 17 the seventh angel pours out his vial into the air, and there is a great voice out of the temple of heaven from the throne, saying, "It is done".............

 

Jesus himself told the pharisees and scribes and unbelieving Jews in Matthew 23 that they would not see him again until they say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD" vs. 39. This does not happen until after the tribulation period and after Daniels 70th week. This happens to bloodline Jews who will be born again at Armageddon (which is post tribulation and not during Daniel's 70th Week as pre-trib teachers promote, but after Daniel's 70th week "when the Lord pours upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications, and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced". (Zachariah 12:10)

　

　

　

　

　

Nikki wrote:

I am aware of what you said, however I do not believe this to be so

 

Nikki, did you not read Dan. 9?

 

²⁴ “Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city,

 

The last week, or the 70th goes from Rev. 8 to Rev. 16. so 8 chapters are devoted to this week. The days of great tribulaton are in the last half of this week. Notice WHO it is for: Daniel's people and the city of Jerusalem.

 

Good answer! Indeed the martyrs under the altar at the 5th seal are, indeed church age saints. It is not that THEY want bengence, in my opinion, it is they they know the scriptures and know that one day GOD will repay.

Luke 21:22

New King James Version (NKJV)

²² For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

 

I completely disagree. There is only one catching away of God's people on earth mentioned and Jesus himself told us

 

I guess you know that there are problems with trying to make this gathering the rapture gathering? First, it gathers from heaven, and Paul's rapture gathers from earth. Next, it comes at the end. I think you need to study 1 Thes. 5, and determine in your heart when Paul's gathering is. He mentions the day of the Lord coming as a thief, just three verses after the classic rapture verse. Then he goes on to explain there will come a SUDDENLY during a time of peace and safety (NOTHING like the days after the GT) where those living in Jesus get "salvation" (rapture) and get to live together with HIm, while those living in the dark get SUDDEN destruction. This word "destruction" is in several of the Old Testament verses speaking of the Day of the Lord, so Paul is telling us that HIS gathering will be the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord. next, John saw the raptured church IN HEAVEN and already gathered, before he even started the 70th week. All these things make it impossible that the gathering in Matt. 24 is the rapture.

 

which is Armaggedon, which is the great day of His wrath

 

There is NO DOUBT Jesus is angry at the battle of Armageddon, but John shows that the vials are vials of His wrath, and they start MUCH before the battle of Armageddon. In fact, it is written way back in chapter 6, "the day of His wrath has come." Why have you not believed this?

 

Notice in this two verses that the remnant of Israel are not delivered and saved during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week, as pre-trib people promote, but the remnant is delivered at the day of the LORD after the tribulation, goes into the millinium.

 

What does Joel SAY, really?

 

Joel 2:31-32

The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered;for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

Nikki, did you forget, Peter quoted this verse and verses above it on the day of Pentecost?

 

Acts 2

¹⁷ ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. ¹⁸ And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

 

Peter quoting this on the day of Pentecost tied these verses to the early church! Peter ended up with this:

 

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

 

Therefore, this deliverance is speaking first  of SPIRITUAL deliverance; if they call they can be born again. But JOel did add:  in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance.  So when will this deliverance come? Without a doubt when Jesus descends on the white horse.

 

as pre-trib people promote

 

WE promote Paul's rapture as it is written, in a time of PEACE and Safety! And the raputure takes people to heaven, nto leaves them here on earth. Sorry, this verse is a very poor argument for posttrib. However, you have missed something critical: if the rapture came here, as postrib posits, at the time of Jesus coming, then all those who turn to him would be raptured right then, and get resurrection bodies. Where then are the people in natural bodies to replenish the earth? Your theory has ROBBED God of anyone left in natural bodies to enter His kingdom.

 

This verse certainly confirms that that the wrath of God comes at the 6th seal, and Armageddon, which means the the 6th seal is after the tribulation period, which means this doesn't occur until after Daniel's 70th Week. This means that the wrath of God is at Armageddon, and not during the tribulation period or Daniel's 70th week.

 

Your theories are WAY OFF here. What are you looking at  - at the 6th seal that would make you think it is at the END? It is only the 6th chapter! Now your theory is making you rearrange John's book! Nikii, always remember:

 

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and WILL be proven wrong.

 

The wrath of God begins right where John tells us it begins, in chapter 6. But this is at the very beginning of the DAy of the Lord, not at the end.

 

The cosmic signs and disturbances noted in Mathew 24 and Joel 2 correlate with one another and are the very same event and occur at the 6 seal of Revelation 6 vs.12-17

 

Perhaps you are looking at the signs in the sun and moon? Did you not notice that they are DIFFERENT, and indeed two different signs for two different purposes? Please, Nikki, go study Joel 2 & 3, for he shows BOTH signs, first the sun is darkened and the moon turned to blood as a SIGN for the start of the day (aalso seen at the 6th seal), and again in Joel 3 as BOTH the sun and moon darkened, as a sign for Jesus' soon return (Also seen in Matt. 24). The Key is, these signs are seen TWICE. (Just as Jesus is to return TWICE more.) When you recognize that these signs are seen twice, there is no need to rearrange the book. It is in perfect order.

 

Think about what you wrote. You are implying that Jesus is coming to catch away His people on earth at a pre trib rapture event, but Jesus doesn't know when He is going to catch away His people. How can this possibly be.

 

It is very simple: one day God the Father will tell Jesus, IT IS TIME; go get the bride! Did you never read where Jesus said even He don't know the day nor the hour?

Mark 13:32

³² “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

 

Jesus himself told the pharisees and scribes and unbelieving Jews in Matthew 23 that they would not see him again until they say "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the LORD"

 

If you go back and look, He was addressing this to the city of Jerusalem. Jerusalem will certainly NOT see Him until He comes on the white horse. Nikki, you will find it extremely difficult to promote a false doctrine! Jesus is very much pretrib, so it will be impossible to prove a postrib rapture.

 

Lamad

[nikki1]

Lamad

 

Nikki, you will find it extremely difficult to promote a false doctrine! Jesus is very much pretrib, so it will be impossible to prove a postrib rapture.

 

 

 

I am more than satisfied with the words of Jesus, and other scriptures I have posted to back up what I have said and  which you refer to as "theory".  I don't think calling  the words of Jesus "theory" and other correlating scripture to back up my thoughts on this subject is a wise thing to do.

 

Further...

 

My comments were addressed to Montana Marv, and I really don't think it's appropriate for you to butt in with your rude,   chopped up scriptural,   as well as your opinions and  antagonistic   remarks which really makes for a fruitless discussion on your part,  and  I will not waste my time to address any of  it.   I don't have to prove anything to you.   The words of Jesus are good enough for me.

 

I no longer desire  to carry on a conversation with you on this or anything else with you.  It's one thing to defend your position, but you seem to only want to argue in an antagonistic manner .

I have been reading and studying God's Holy Word for over 20 years and I don't need you to insinuate that I haven't or to tell me to read this or that and I certainly don't need you to distort what I have written.

[ENOCH2010]

Lamad one thing you have to realize is the group of saints you keep talking about around the throne, are saints that have died during the past 2000 or so years. No-where in the Bible is it said that this group are the raptured saints. When a saint dies their soul or spirit (I don't know which) goes to be with the Lord. Those are the same saints the Lord brings back with Him to be reunited with their new body at the second coming.  

[nikki1]

nikki1

 

 

 

The saints of (Rev 6:10) who were slain and are beneath the altar are asking a question...  When will you avenge our blood.  There are no NT Scriptures that support this question being asked. 

 

 

Stephen asks - Lord do not hold this sin against them.

 

Boy, the Church has come a long way.  What false doctrine infiltrated the Church for us to ask for vengeance.

 

In Christ

Montana Mountain Marv

Hi Montana:

 

I reviewed scripture again to gain some insight on your comments above and these are my thoughts:

 

Jesus does in fact speak of vengeance in the NT in Luke Chapter 18 giving an illustration in a parable Saying:

 

There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

And there was a widow in the city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

And he would not for a while but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

 

And the LORD said, Hear what the unjust judge saith,

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night, though he bear long with them?

 

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.  Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? vs. 1-8

 

So in the above illustration parable, here we have Jesus saying that God will avenge his saints in His time, but when God does, will He find faith on the earth?  In Revelation 6:10, we see the saints asking when.  There is no problem in asking when, especially after our Lord said God would do it.  I see those saints  as growing weary, (as often times faithful  Christians do, when we  see evil prevailing upon the earth and Christians being martyred  all around us, and waiting for God to intervene, and wondering how much longer we have to endure. )  They are merely looking and waiting  for the justice promised them in scripture by Jesus.

[Montana Marv]

 

nikki1

 

 

 

The saints of (Rev 6:10) who were slain and are beneath the altar are asking a question...  When will you avenge our blood.  There are no NT Scriptures that support this question being asked. 

 

 

Stephen asks - Lord do not hold this sin against them.

 

Boy, the Church has come a long way.  What false doctrine infiltrated the Church for us to ask for vengeance.

 

In Christ

Montana Mountain Marv

Hi Montana:

 

I reviewed scripture again to gain some insight on your comments above and these are my thoughts:

 

Jesus does in fact speak of vengeance in the NT in Chapter 18 giving an illustration in a parable Saying:

 

There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:

And there was a widow in the city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.

And he would not for a while but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;

Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.

 

And the LORD said, Hear what the unjust judge saith,

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night, though he bear long with them?

 

I tell you that he will avenge them speedily.  Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? vs. 1-8

 

So in the above illustration parable, here we have Jesus saying that God will avenge his saints in His time, but when God does, will He find faith on the earth?  In Revelation 6:10, we see the saints asking when.  There is no problem in asking when, especially after our Lord said God would do it.  I see those saints  as growing weary, (as often times faithful  Christians do, when we  see evil prevailing upon the earth and Christians being martyred  all around us, and waiting for God to intervene, and wondering how much longer we have to endure. )  They are merely looking and waiting  for the justice promised them in scripture by Jesus.

 

 

nikki1

 

Nothing in those verses does it say that we as NT believers were to ask for vengeance.  For none of those examples are of the Bride of Christ.  Those verses suggest that God will avenge his elect.  That is not the point, we know that.  Hebrews 10:30 - For we know him who said, It is mine to avenge, I will repay.  Yet when looking at Eph 4:31 - Get rid of all bitterness, rage, and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.  Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.  (this is Christian to Christian).  Are we to be like the sinful world, for they are the ones who ask of vengeance.

 

We must go back to the first martyr Stephen, in Acts 7:59,60 - While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.  Then he fell on his knees and cried out, Lord, do not hold this sin against them...

 

What has changed from Stephens death to those who are killed and under the altar during the 70th week.  Has the gospel changed???  Was Stephen wrong to ask for forgiveness to those who did him harm.  Or I can ask;  Lord, kill these scum who are trying to killed me.  That is it, Lord kill these scum, take your vengeance upon them.  I think I've got it now.  I will finally fit in with believers in Christ.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[nikki1]

Hi Montana:

 

Anyone can take a few scriptures and make a whole  doctrine out of it.  Certainly NT Christianity has as one of it's main theme "forgiveness", but this should not blind us to other important doctrines and lessons taught  through out  the Scriptures and overlook them..  With  the example you gave with Stephen, Stephen is speaking only of the sin of stoning him  when he says "Lord, do not hold this sin against them.Stephen was asking the Lord to forgive the stoners who took his life.  A good lesson is being given to Stephen's Jewish audience on  forgiveness, confirming what  Jesus taught him.    Our Lord has many teachings on forgiveness through out the Gospels which his early Jewish Apostles,  followers and later Gentile's taught.  But that is not all Jesus taught, which you seem to be overlooking.

 

Peter, in the  Acts of the Apostles in  Chapter 5, struck Ananias and Sapphira dead after lying about some money they had received from selling land and did not tell Peter the whole truth about it, but kept some of the money from the sale of the land.  In this situation, God executed his vengeance (justice) through Peter for this sin of lying and stealing and tempting the Holy Spirit   and the two dropped dead over it immediately..  vs. 1-12. causing great fear upon the church and those who had heard about this event.  Where is the forgiveness on the  part of Peter here ? He did not  ask God to forgive the two.   The point is there is a lesson here also to be learned.  Just as there is a lesson to be learned in the above scriptures I have posted regarding Jesus' parable illustration on vengeance.

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . 2 Timothy 3:16

[Montana Marv]

Hi Montana:

 

Anyone can take a few scriptures and make a whole  doctrine out of it.  Certainly NT Christianity has as one of it's main theme "forgiveness", but this should not blind us to other important doctrines and lessons taught  through out  the Scriptures and overlook them..  With  the example you gave with Stephen, Stephen is speaking only of the sin of stoning him  when he says "Lord, do not hold this sin against them.Stephen was asking the Lord to forgive the stoners who took his life.  A good lesson is being given to Stephen's Jewish audience on  forgiveness, confirming what  Jesus taught him.    Our Lord has many teachings on forgiveness through out the Gospels which his early Jewish Apostles,  followers and later Gentile's taught.  But that is not all Jesus taught, which you seem to be overlooking.

 

Peter, in the  Acts of the Apostles in  Chapter 5, struck Ananias and Sapphira dead after lying about some money they had received from selling land and did not tell Peter the whole truth about it, but kept some of the money from the sale of the land.  In this situation, God executed his vengeance (justice) through Peter for this sin of lying and stealing and tempting the Holy Spirit   and the two dropped dead over it immediately..  vs. 1-12. causing great fear upon the church and those who had heard about this event.  Where is the forgiveness on the  part of Peter here ? He did not  ask God to forgive the two.   The point is there is a lesson here also to be learned.  Just as there is a lesson to be learned in the above scriptures I have posted regarding Jesus' parable illustration on vengeance.

 

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . 2 Timothy 3:16

 

nikki1

 

With regard to Stephens stoning, that was the preferred method of execution for the Jews, in public and quick.  The sin was killing him, not the method.  "Thou shalt not kill" - many methods for killing someone.

 

So if you are correct, shooting or poisoning should be a better way to kill.  Do these fall under a different type of forgiveness.  Or is it that only those who are beheaded can ask for vengeance,

 

With regard to Peter, he did not strike Ananias and Sapphira down.  All he did was confront them with the sin.  God struck them down.  For they lied to the HS and others.  So your case here does not fit vengeance or even forgiveness.  Peter did not ask for vengeance or plead for them.  God judged them on the spot and they died.

 

Vengeance should not be in our vocabulary as NT believers.  In our fleshly body  indwelt by the HS, or in our spirit/soul in heaven above.  For only God knows how to rightly judge a person.  So I guess we could ask for God to condemn someone to "hell"  that must be ok. Just like one saying "I hope you go to hell".  We have become the judge and not God.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Ingrid]

There isn't a raptured, but I am glad that I am grafted in and am now a part of Israel.

[nikki1]

Hi Montana:

 

 

 

With regard to Stephens stoning, that was the preferred method of execution for the Jews, in public and quick. The sin was killing him, not the method. "Thou shalt not kill" - many methods for killing someone.

 

huh? What I said is "Stephen was asking the Lord to forgive the stoners who took his life." What does the "method of taking someone's life" have to do with what I said??" I don't see where your further comments have anything to do with what I have said. The point, which you overlooked, was Stephen wanted his stoners forgiven by the Lord, setting an example for his stoners (Jews). You seem to be drifting away from the original issue you brought up in your latest remarks here. And it appears you are distorting what I have said with your additional comments.

 

 

 

With regard to Peter, he did not strike Ananias and Sapphira down. All he did was confront them with the sin. God struck them down.

 

You are really downplaying the entire scriptural lesson learned here. Peter could have just as well asked for the Lord to forgive the two, as Stephen did in his stoning, but Peter did not do this. Instead the two were struck dead immediately  causing great fear among the church and those who heard about this event.   Peter was the spokes person who brought about God's vengeance because Peter did not plead for God's forgiveness for the two. Peter displayed the power of God within him with "signs and wonders" II Corinth. 12:12.  Indeed, Peter in the NT is  an instrument of vengeance teaching in the NT no matter how hard you try to overlook it to fit in your 70th week pre-trib saints scenario.

 

I guess you also missed what I said "God executed his vengeance (justice) through Peter in my previous communication to you.

 

meaning....

 

Peter was the instrument that God used to exercise vengence. II Corinth.12:12 confirms "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders and mighty deeds". Jesus himself said "Unless you people see signs and wonders, ye will not believe". John:4:48. The Jews required a sign. 1 Corinth 1:22

 

If you read the Acts of the Apostles, you will see that God's chosen apostles (Peter, in this case) healed a crippled (Acts 3:6) as Jesus did through the power of the Holy Spirit within them. In the very next chapter (4) we read of the account where Ananias (Sapphira) were struck dead, with Peter as the instrument God used, just as Moses parted the Red Sea for the Israelites to be delivered into safety. Moses was also the instrument God used to execute God's vengence (justice) on the Midianites shown in Numbers Ch. 31:2 which reads "Avenge the childred of Israel of the Midianites.........." All of God's chosen servants were instruments used of God (and that was my point). Just as all of God's people are instruments God uses today to fullfil His will through them.

 

 

 

Vengeance should not be in our vocabulary as NT believers.

 

You can't throw out scripture, and words used in scripture, just because you don't like it and because it doesn't prove your pre-trib position.

 

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness . 2 Timothy 3:16".

 

Not all vengence is bad. When someone or something is an instrument that God uses to execute God's judgment (or God ordained vengence) upon wrong doers,( such as the original Apostles, OT men of God, people or governments) good and/or God's will will ultimately come about from it.

 

 

 

So I guess we could ask for God to condemn someone to "hell" that must be ok. Just like one saying "I hope you go to hell". We have become the judge and not God.

 

Well, in the illustration in Paul's letter to the Church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians Chapter 5: 1-5 the Apostle Paul turned one involved in the sin of fornication over to satan, saying;

"For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath done this deed."

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus Christ".

 

What do you think of that?

[Montana Marv]

Why are these saints under the altar complaining?  Why are they not rejoicing?

 

1 Cor 13:12 - Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror, then we shall see face to face.  Now I know in part, then I shall know fully, even as I am fully know.

 

It appears these saints under the altar have missed out on the "seeing Christ face to face" and "then I shall know fully".  For one brings on the others.  If one is in Christs presence, what happens?

 

In Christ

Montana Marv