Discussion of Omiscience

[0username0]

I posted this in a secular web board and was called names for posting it, I suppose it won't be much different here, but you also have rules here that they don't have, so maybe I won't.  I actually think they were jealous of me at the secular web board, which seems strange.  Anyways, here's my disproof....

 

So mathematicians have these things called conjectures which are either proven or disproven as time goes on, some have lasted for hundreds of years.  There is a conjecture of being which is that a being can be all-powerful, all-knowing and/or all-present.  Many people assume that this is true and act in accordance with this belief, often doing the same things that a person who doesn't believe it will do, many consider that it's not true, and basically do whatever they'd do even if they believed it.  However I do think there is a difference that occurs when someone acts upon reason instead of conjectures.

 

What I've discovered is effectively that however this went, proof or disproof, that it is disproven.  No sentient being can have these properties.  I basically solved a many thousands of years old conjecture.

 

The disproof starts with numbers, namely, the process of counting them all, such as pi, with an infinite number of digits that don't repeat, or even perhaps a number like 0.1(repeating ones), where you have to actually think each digit as it expands.  It is impossible to count all of these numbers, because you can't count all the numbers.  You can't count them all, because they never stop, there is no "all of the digits of pi", and you couldn't even count them all of you lived forever because you can't count "forever", it's not a number.

 

What happens when a being does try to count all of the digits of pi, perhaps infinitely fast, is that an error occurs, because they can't all be counted.

 

No single being can count all of the numbers.  However, it is possible to count all of the digits of pi if you have an infinite number of beings each counting a digit (each being counting a finite number infinitely fast), but the moment a single being parallel processes all of these infinite beings at infinity (infinitely fast), where the number becomes infinite, an error will emerge.  Pi can be counted, it's just that there needs to be a division of labor where some beings are counting numbers that other beings cannot possibly count or know in order for the entire number to be counted.

 

This brings me to another point which is that if there are an infinite number of beings, there will be beings that know stuff that no single being can know, and this not only shows that a being cannot be omniscient, it shows that it cannot even know everything that is known by beings who know things.

 

But this only happens if there are an infinite number of beings.  Someone might argue that the "omniscient" being they are referring to obviously can't know things that nobody can know, but knows everything that can be known and they might argue that there are only a finite number of beings.

 

Thus comes my second disproof.  If a being is parallel processing all of a finite number of beings, it effectively has a "body" that is everyone, and this is no ordinary body in the sense that we think of it, there is nothing outside of it.  This is a critical mass at convergence that causes a very serious problem.  If you are everybody, then you don't have anything to allow the perception of other, because you are either everyone or everything, and this critical mass collapses the ability to be sentient, the capacity to discern something else or ones self.  It's impossible to be both everything (which is what omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence imply) and sentient at the same time for any being.  I'll try to restate this if it didn't make sense the first time:  If you are everything, including yourself, there is nothing other than you from which it is possible to distinguish yourself, the moment you parallel process everything, you cease to be a sentient being, the ability to discern "other", you or something else, vanishes.  This is the same thing that happens when you try to process an infinite amount of numbers at once, it comes back as an error.

 

What this means is that it's impossible for a being to even know everything a finite number of beings know.

[JDavis]

You have way too much free time on your hands...just saying

[0username0]

You have way too much free time on your hands...just saying

I have quite a bit of time, but I'd hardly call it free, I have developed many theories and have expanded my understanding and teaching of what I've learned over many subjects, I suppose it's to say that it's not wasted, and it mostly feels like work.

[MorningGlory]

Since there is no way to test your theory, it remains just a theory.  God is everything, everywhere; He IS all knowledge (including yours) and things work as He has predetermined.  This renders your theory conjecture.     And welcome to Worthy.

[Aldebaran]

That's an interesting post, 0username0.  I would argue that there are a few places that your theory needs work.  I'll ignore the old, well-known explanations for why we can know that God is omniscient and skip right to your use of numbers.

 

First, pi is what mathematicians refer to as an "irrational" number.  The digits used to represent pi are a human discovery and method for representing something that was never intended to be and cannot truly be represented in numerical form.  In other words, pi, with all of its millions of known digits, is an approximation made for human use.  Now, let me tie that in with your use of infinites.  Pi is the relationship between the radius and circumference of a circle.  A circle itself is really only a theoretical construct - there is no such thing as the "perfect" circle described by pi... unless, of course, God is a perfect circle (I'll let everyone think on that for a minute).

 

We should never confuse a concrete infinite (an infinite thing that actually exists within our universe) with an abstract infinite (a theoretical construct, useful in mathematics and philosophy).  When we speak of "infinity", we're almost always making this reference in the abstract form.  Your description of multiple infinite beings doing different things to achieve a given end demonstrates the problem with the math.  What you end up with is unequal infinites, which cannot occur.  Consider, for example, if we use a concrete example of infinity: A driver is out on a 10,000 foot long track whereupon he drives an infinite number of laps.  His son, Junior, is on his tricycle in the field in the middle of the track, doing little laps on his own 10 foot long track.  He, too, rides an infinite number of laps.  Who went the farthest?  So, you end up with 10,000 x ∞ = ∞ and 10 x ∞ = ∞.  Clearly, this does not work because when you cancel out the ∞, you have 10,000 = 10.

 

There are some very useful applications of math in the real world.  Every time I drive across a long bridge or ride in an airplane, I thank God that we can apply mathematics to their consistent and safe construction.  There are, however, things math cannot solve, and pi is one of them (though it can at least describe it).  Love is another.

 

Your second proof does a good job of shooting down the theory of pantheism... I'm sure Luke Skywalker will be crushed to know that it really was just a hokey religion (but the ancient weapons were cool).

 

God is the one and only true, concrete infinity - the Creator of the created (the material universe), having both the power and the will to create, proving His omnipotence, enabling His omnipresence, and, through His transcendence, being omniscient.  Indeed, in his infinitude, it is impossible for Him to be otherwise.

[franciskelsey]

WOW!! How can I possibly top that last post?? As pointed out earlier, however, God is without time, thus time means nothing. So, if a theory to disproof something includes time in trying to disproof something that has no time there is no reason nor common ground for the testing or conclusion. Secondly, by your theory, it is based on knowledge, again, as pointed out, that we came up with, or created. If God created the sun, moon, and stars in six days, how many more years do you think it will take for humans to do the same? Can't say? Of course not. It is kinda like having a pet dog. If you throw a stick it might go chase it, and with food you can entice it to learn many tricks. It acts on instinct as well is learning. In time you can get a dog with the proper training to do a lot of things (though my dog never would LOL) because it has instinct to always crave better things. What the dog will never understand is why humans go to work, or how (Like they care how) we drive a car? They just want to be in the car while you are driving to work.

 

 How does all of this relate to a thing? If God created us (in which He did) and also knew all knowledge that we would bestow (in which all knowledge comes from Him and without Him there could literally not even be life in existence) how then can we measure knowledge to the same degree? How can a dog understand a human? How can a created human ever understand the love of God? As pointed out in the last post, some things are far beyond a mathematical figure. We can calculate wind but can never truly understand it. We can predict the weather and feel the rain but never get a 24 hour forecast correct. We can fall in love and experience love but truly never be able to explain it.

 

Thus is the way with the Holy Spirit.

 

How can the thing created say to the One that created, you cannot exist? You are a mathematical type of guy. Have you ever calculated the chances of life and order coming from an explosion, or how earth is the only know planet that is believed to be able to sustain life. Your theory is based on the knowledge of what man came up with for man to relate to. Thus it has no bearings to an unlimited source of knowledge. We only have the knowledge that is allowed to us.  Even with that, a dog knows love. A dog understands when his owner cares. A dog cannot get excited enough knowing his savior is coming back again. Thus it is with me and my Savior Jesus Christ. We do not have to understand everything to be able to enjoy the King's presence and to know the best is yet ahead, beyond any numbers we can ever come up with in our heads. Eternity is placed in our hearts. Can you put a mathematical equation on either one of those two things my friend? May you too find the way into the love of God. God bless.     

Edited July 12, 2013 by franciskelsey

[0username0]

Thank you for the responses and let's move on having taken them into consideration.

 

Let's not use pi, or rather any irrational number that repeats infinitely, lets just use the plain old whole numbers 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13.... etc...

 

It is impossible to count all of these numbers, because, again, they never end.  There is no "highest one".  Your post on infinities being equal for different speeds is interesting, however, as you may know, there are orders of infinity in mathematics, where some are considered larger than others, and as many things in life, many people think they understand them, but most people who are honest can look into it and probably agree that they don't have a full comprehension of these concepts.

 

My point is not about these equal trips around the track for different speeds.  My point is about the ability to count any infinity, and to use your example about carts at different speeds, the ability to count either of them.  They are infinities, and with infinities you have the uncountable, at least as I point out, with a single intelligence.  It's not enough to make a symbol that represents all of the whole numbers as they count up and say that just because you made that symbol, you counted all of them.  That symbol is a representation of an infinite process, not that infinite process, and any point during the counting of that infinite process is also a representation of that infinite process.  This is to argue against the idea that something "transcends" this problem.

 

The facts are, that no sentient being can single handedly count every whole number. These numbers can be hypothetically counted if each being was given a single number, which they utter, which is finite, and there are an infinite number of them who are not aware of the others uttering those numbers.

 

Someone tried to sound smart and say that God processes this stuff outside of time.  Processing something with infinite processing speed is by definition "outside of time", so while they thought they rendered my argument moot, they didn't realize that my argument already accounted for this idea in it's formulation of disproof.  I'm sorry I didn't explicate that before, but understand that whenever I use the term "infinite processing speed", I mean, "outside of time", and when I say that any being trying to calculate all of the whole numbers will run into an error at infinite processing speed, what I also mean is that this error will occur if they try to process all of these numbers outside of time, the reason being, there is no such thing as "all these numbers" because they don't stop.

 

 

[OneLight]

Jesus made one statement about how a person can enter heaven, but His words have far more reaching value then just answering one question.

 

Matthew 19:26  "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

 

You keep comparing God to man.  This is your mistake. 

[0username0]

I also wanted to add one more point about the transcendence argument, which is that, for my second argument someone already said that God transcends being everything, well, no!  If there is a transcendence of everything than that becomes part of what everything is.  That's why it's called "ALL".  If a being is ALL, then there is nothing outside of that all.  Without anything outside of that all it is impossible to discern something outside of that all with which to discern the all, the perception of other and self reaches an error at critical mass.  It is impossible to be sentient and be everything at the same time.

[Guest]

suppose there was this number, that was .666666....6666666 ad infinitum

 

watch this:

 

2/3

 

 

now, if there were a physical real world circle, with actual real word dimensions,  let's say a= it's diameter, and b=it's circumferance,

 

 

just express it as a fraction instead of as a decimal:  a/b  not a problem if you apply the right type of expression to the problem.

 

You also attempted to innappropriately inject time into this problem, as in there is not enough time to do it. Time is not relavent to the problem. Wwhy not elliminate time from the problem altogether. Time is a dimension on which finite beings dwell, it is also a creation of an infinite being, who dwells in eternity outside of time. Time therefore, is not a limitation He must contend with.

 

You might find me a bit too simple minded for you, but I found the title of your post to be misleading, and the post to be a bit disappointing, not measuring up to the claim.