What was the first living thing like according to evolutionists

[MarkNigro]

 

But that's not the basis for your calculations.  Your calculations assume that chemistry itself is random.  We know for a fact that it's not.  Molecules spontaneously bond on their own according to their inherent properties.

 

You should read this...

 

 

A thermodynamic basis for prebiotic amino acid synthesis and the nature of the first genetic code

 

Of the twenty amino acids used in proteins, ten were formed in Miller's atmospheric discharge experiments. The two other major proposed sources of prebiotic amino acid synthesis include formation in hydrothermal vents and delivery to Earth via meteorites. We combine observational and experimental data of amino acid frequencies formed by these diverse mechanisms and show that, regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts. This order can be predicted by thermodynamics. The relative abundances of the early amino acids were most likely reflected in the composition of the first proteins at the time the genetic code originated. The remaining amino acids were incorporated into proteins after pathways for their biochemical synthesis evolved. This is consistent with theories of the evolution of the genetic code by stepwise addition of new amino acids. These are hints that key aspects of early biochemistry may be universal. 

 

 

I have looked at Miller's experiment. It is not a random experiment at all but an apparatus that Miller used. Miller used a spark to get reactions, so he had to use a trap to remove the products immediately. So it was rigged.

 

 

 

There is no way to know what amino acids formed and where. Any ocean environment will quickly dilute.

 

He only made some of the amino acids, not all. They were racemix. Still does not change the odds much. Do not even know if such a limited set of amino acids will produce a first creature. 

 

So we do not even know that the creature could live, survive or evolve.

 

You have provided nothing. A rigged experiment by an intelligent scientist.

 

A guess at the conditions of the early environment.

 

Please provide real numbers.

 

Please provide something other than an unobserved untested thought exercise.

 

Please give a full description of what Miller actually did.

 

As usual with most evolutionist scenarios just a conjecture with no real details.

Nothing in that description you have gives a single number and just conjecture.

 

That is just a story with complete conjecture. 

[MarkNigro]

First, it's patently obvious that you didn't bother to read the paper.  Heck, you barely read the abstract.  If you'd paid closer attention, you would have seen this part:

 

"regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts"

 

IOW, Miller's early experiments were not important to the paper except as background.  That you didn't bother to pay attention to that once again tells me that you're not asking your questions in good faith.  Once again, I try and be helpful in providing you information and you refuse to even look at it.

 

So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

Then why mention Miller?

 

The rest is still a story and nothing more.

[MarkNigro]

 

Then why mention Miller?

 

Read the paper and find out.  Or answer my question:  So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

 

I will redo the calculations with the reduced number of amino acids. It still will not help much.

 

Of course an additional evolutionary step will be there after to bring in the other amino acids. The odds in the end are the same.

[MarkNigro]

New calculation using only 10 amino acids, racemix

 

 

For 10 amino acids that are racemix

 

For a total protein sequence of 50,000 amino acids long, the total number of sequences is 20^50,000 (counting left handed and right handed amino acids). That is approximately equal to 10^65,000.  

 

If you divide all the universe into boxes a Plank length long and time into small units the size of the time it takes for light to traverse a Plank length, then there are only 10^250 points in all space for all time. So at best the odds that it happened once at all in all the universe for all time is 10^64,750 to one.

 

Now of course I have greatly underestimated the odds by quite a bit. 50,000 amino acids do not usually come all together by chance vey often, if ever. I also did not consider the odds of all the other atoms of the exact kinds which are needed to build and maintain the structure. Finally that many amino acids do not make a creature that could sustain itself and certainly not duplicate itself. Finally I gave it all of the universe. But in much of that space the creature could not live. Of course that is just a first step protein based creature without RNA and DNA. And even then it is just a one cell organism.

[MarkNigro]

For only 4 amino acids that are racemix

 

For a total protein sequence of 50,000 amino acids long, the total number of sequences is 4^50,000 (counting left handed and right handed amino acids). That is approximately equal to 10^30,000.  

 

If you divide all the universe into boxes a Plank length long and time into small units the size of the time it takes for light to traverse a Plank length, then there are only 10^250 points in all space for all time. So at best the odds that it happened once at all in all the universe for all time is 10^29,750 to one.

 

Now of course I have greatly underestimated the odds by quite a bit. 50,000 amino acids do not usually come all together by chance vey often, if ever. I also did not consider the odds of all the other atoms of the exact kinds which are needed to build and maintain the structure. Finally that many amino acids do not make a creature that could sustain itself and certainly not duplicate itself. Finally I gave it all of the universe. But in much of that space the creature could not live. Of course that is just a first step protein based creature without RNA and DNA. And even then it is just a one cell organism.

[MarkNigro]

*sigh*

 

You're still repeating the same fundamental error (chemistry is not "by chance").  At this point you're just ignoring almost everything that's said to you.

No error. Amino acids do not have an ordering mechanism at all. 2 amino acids collide. They may form a bond or not depending on certain things. The collision pairs are random though.

 

Biology

Chemistry

Physics

Math

Statistics

 

all use actual numbers

 

What is the size of the smallest organism that can survive without a host organism and replicate without a host organism.

[MarkNigro]

Has anyone ever thought about the improbability of a pebble? I mean, you have trillions and trillions of atoms in a specific arrangement. What are chances that an atom is going to be in that particular space at that particular time, and then have another atom right next to it, at the same time. And it is not just two or three atoms, or even 50,000 but trillions upon trillions! What are the odds that all those atoms would line up so perfectly to form a pebble? 

A pebble is not an ordered system. 

 

Your comparison is silly.

 

It means you have nothing.

[Guest]

Sometime The Greatest Minds

 

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Aren't

 

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~

 

When I get the sense that you might actually start paying even a little attention to what people post to you, I might start up again.

 

~

 

Maybe

 

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Maybe

 

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 1 Timothy 6:20

 

Not

 

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~
 

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[JDavis]

Mark,

Just so we're clear here, I'm going to take a hiatus from interacting with you. When I get the sense that you might actually start paying even a little attention to what people post to you, I might start up again.

I think I will join you on this one

[MarkNigro]

Therefore there is no answer for what was the first living thing from evolutionary science/

 

Evolution is a false theory.

 

Even its backers cannot defend it.