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MarkNigro

What was the first living thing like according to evolutionists

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Gerald McGrew    519

Now of course I have greatly underestimated the odds by quite a bit. 50,000 amino acids do not usually come all together by chance vey often, if ever.

 

Oh, well there's the problem with your calculations. Chemistry is non-random.

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Fez    8,097

Some interesting facts about our bodies! Stay with me here because there are some rather big numbers involved.

Our bodies have 75 Trillion cells in them, yes, trillion. That’s a big number. How big? Well let’s look at it like this.

1 Million seconds ago was 12 days

1 Billion seconds was 32 years ago

1 Trillion seconds was 31,710 years ago

75 Trillion seconds was 2,378,250 years ago.

Your brain, which weighs three pounds, has 100 billion of those 75 trillion cells. There are 100 million messages a second coming into your brain right now. Only 200 – 300 of those messages a second make it above your brain stem, it sort of queues the rest up in order of importance.

Every one of the 75 trillion cells in your body has a uniquely “you” DNA strand. Every one! You are the only person ever born, or will ever be naturally born who has that DNA.

In every DNA strand is stored the characters (including the spaces, letters, periods, pictures) of about 6248 books of about 300 pages. In every of the 75 trillion cells, that have a strand of DNA, is the equivalent of 6248 books. In every strand! My calculator can’t calculated that high, it just sort of bombs out.

How were these 75 trillion cells, all with a different job to do created?

One sperm of millions found one egg. Had it been another of the million sperms you would have been a different person in many ways. The cell that found the egg divided (it had 46 chromosomes to start with) and now has 23 chromosomes; the egg has 23 after dividing (it also had 46). They fused to form one cell of 46 chromosomes, and these chromosomes match up and form a strand of DNA. A unique strand that in the history of creation, only you have!

Those two microscopic, tiny, cells have in them everything necessary to build you! Unique cells, because most cells replicate themselves to do what they have to do. Not these, these are the building blocks of life itself. They formed you. Your organs, features, brain, bones, fingers, toes, and every other part of you, including your eyes, you get the picture? They tell every other cell what to do. They are unique.

Let’s talk about the eye for a second. Your eye is one of the most complex computers known. It has 120 million rods and cones, through which travel billions of computations a second. Your eyes are formed in the womb, through the message given by the unique cells and the DNA they formed at conception.

But wait there’s more! You are now about 3 inches big in the womb. 1,000,000 optical nerves move out of your pea sized brain, and 1,000,000 out of the flesh of your eyeball. They move towards each other. (You don’t have eyelids yet, just one flap of skin over where both eyes will be).

Now Number 1 has to find the other number 1, and 5467, has to find 5467. If this does not happen, you will be born blind.

Imagine 2,000,000 people in a stadium with placards. “Have you seen number 3478?” “No have you seen number 901,034?” It would be chaos.

But God does not do chaos, God does not do chance.

Ok the 75 trillion cells you have: (one trillion is 1000 billion by the way).

By the time you read the last sentence 50,000 of those cells have died and been replaced! By the time you finish reading this another 50,000 cells will have died and been replaced. (About every second or so)

Scientists think there are 200 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy, our little corner of the universe (you know, where our tiny little solar system hangs out?). They have just found another billion stars they did not know about, isn't that so cool! Imagine what else is out there declaring His Glory for us to find! You have 75 trillion cells! 375 times the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy!

25 trillion red blood cells, which you replace every 120 days!

25 Billion White blood cells – the disease fighters. Umm... they live 12 hours. So since you had dinner last night, you have replaced 25 billion white cells from your bone marrow, the white cell factories of your body.

Let’s talk about the simple cell. (Just one of the 75 trillion?). Each cell has about 50 billion atoms in it. Each cell has 100 – 1000 proteins (the things that tell the cells what it is and to do?). Each one of these proteins has 1000’s of amino acids in it’s make up, in a long molecular chain. If one of these molecular chains is out of whack for any reason the entire cell shuts down.

Every square foot of the 20 square feet of your skin replaces itself every few weeks. Every square inch of your skin has 1300 nerve endings, 100 sweat glands, 3 million cells and 10 feet of blood vessels.

Unfolded your lungs would stretch over the size of a tennis court.

There is much more of this stuff, but I want to end off by talking about you, the unique you. Not your body, but your cognizant thought, your in built morals, and your soul!

Your soul evolved? I don’t think so. Your body evolved from the primeval soup? I don’t think so.

You are a God created; God activated soul, to whom He has given an amazing body to carry it around in.

To deny that, goes to denying God. And how is that possible to do?

God leaves nothing to chance, look how He made us! And you try to tell me that the miracle of our body was an accident? That the hugely complex body you walk around in, that is doing stuff you don’t even know about, even as you listen to this, was created by chance? That is impossible, and to believe it denies the existence of God.

We serve an amazing and awesome God, and to reduce His power to “chance”, and accordingly to “evolution”, simply makes no sense!

Finally, think on this. You are stardust! You are made of the stuff of the universe. God made you from the dust of His creation, you are part of the universe, and you are part of His creation in oh so many ways. The minerals and trace elements in you, exist in the far flung edge (if there be an edge) of the universe!

As I said, and Awesome God, who gave you an awesome body, which is part of His Awesome creation.

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MarkNigro    660

 

Now of course I have greatly underestimated the odds by quite a bit. 50,000 amino acids do not usually come all together by chance vey often, if ever.

 

Oh, well there's the problem with your calculations. Chemistry is non-random.

But the order of amino acids would be random for a first creature.

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MarkNigro    660

 

 

 

 

 

How can you even look at the odds? ...

 

 

All of these have enormous odds.

 

 

 

If you throw the multiverse theory into the equation then odds are it was going to happen somewhere, sometime.  Why not here?  

 

How do you know of any other universe? How many are there? Has anybody been to any and made a measurement?

 

 

:biggrin2: I called it a theory.  I'm just playing the 'if ________, then __________' game.  Playing with ideas is fun!  For example, here is a fun idea to play with; if Einstein's Theory of Relativity is true, then time cannot be linear.  Only our perception of time is linear, for we are limited beings of limited capacity to process information.  It is also the most practical way for us to process events if we have to choose just one way.  There's no use seeing the tiger before after it's eaten us!   If time is not linear then one view is that everything that has happened is happening now, and everything that will happen is also happening now but outside our perceptual view.  Don't you think this theory shows how God can be omnipresent, and have a perfect knowledge of all that will come to pass while maintaining the freedom of choice for those with a more limited perceptual view along the path of time?  It brings the doctrines of free will and predetermination into perfect balance with one another, don't you think?  if.. then!  See, it's fun!  Another fun game is, 'What if?'

 

God controls as much as He wants. For example, God does allow free will that people sometimes use for evil. It is not God's will what they do however.

 

That still makes Him Almighty. He just does not choose to control all actions.

 

God does know the future. He let's people have there own free will. But He knows their choices ahead of time.

 

Do I understand this in my own small mind? No. I just accept what God reveals about Himself in His word.

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Gerald McGrew    519

But that's not the basis for your calculations.  Your calculations assume that chemistry itself is random.  We know for a fact that it's not.  Molecules spontaneously bond on their own according to their inherent properties.

 

You should read this...

 

 

 
Of the twenty amino acids used in proteins, ten were formed in Miller's atmospheric discharge experiments. The two other major proposed sources of prebiotic amino acid synthesis include formation in hydrothermal vents and delivery to Earth via meteorites. We combine observational and experimental data of amino acid frequencies formed by these diverse mechanisms and show that, regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts. This order can be predicted by thermodynamics. The relative abundances of the early amino acids were most likely reflected in the composition of the first proteins at the time the genetic code originated. The remaining amino acids were incorporated into proteins after pathways for their biochemical synthesis evolved. This is consistent with theories of the evolution of the genetic code by stepwise addition of new amino acids. These are hints that key aspects of early biochemistry may be universal. 
 

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MarkNigro    660

 

But that's not the basis for your calculations.  Your calculations assume that chemistry itself is random.  We know for a fact that it's not.  Molecules spontaneously bond on their own according to their inherent properties.

 

You should read this...

 

 

 
Of the twenty amino acids used in proteins, ten were formed in Miller's atmospheric discharge experiments. The two other major proposed sources of prebiotic amino acid synthesis include formation in hydrothermal vents and delivery to Earth via meteorites. We combine observational and experimental data of amino acid frequencies formed by these diverse mechanisms and show that, regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts. This order can be predicted by thermodynamics. The relative abundances of the early amino acids were most likely reflected in the composition of the first proteins at the time the genetic code originated. The remaining amino acids were incorporated into proteins after pathways for their biochemical synthesis evolved. This is consistent with theories of the evolution of the genetic code by stepwise addition of new amino acids. These are hints that key aspects of early biochemistry may be universal. 
 

 

I have looked at Miller's experiment. It is not a random experiment at all but an apparatus that Miller used. Miller used a spark to get reactions, so he had to use a trap to remove the products immediately. So it was rigged.

 

 

 

There is no way to know what amino acids formed and where. Any ocean environment will quickly dilute.

 

He only made some of the amino acids, not all. They were racemix. Still does not change the odds much. Do not even know if such a limited set of amino acids will produce a first creature. 

 

So we do not even know that the creature could live, survive or evolve.

 

You have provided nothing. A rigged experiment by an intelligent scientist.

 

A guess at the conditions of the early environment.

 

Please provide real numbers.

 

Please provide something other than an unobserved untested thought exercise.

 

Please give a full description of what Miller actually did.

 

As usual with most evolutionist scenarios just a conjecture with no real details.

Nothing in that description you have gives a single number and just conjecture.

 

That is just a story with complete conjecture. 

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Gerald McGrew    519

First, it's patently obvious that you didn't bother to read the paper.  Heck, you barely read the abstract.  If you'd paid closer attention, you would have seen this part:

 

"regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts"

 

IOW, Miller's early experiments were not important to the paper except as background.  That you didn't bother to pay attention to that once again tells me that you're not asking your questions in good faith.  Once again, I try and be helpful in providing you information and you refuse to even look at it.

 

So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

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MarkNigro    660

First, it's patently obvious that you didn't bother to read the paper.  Heck, you barely read the abstract.  If you'd paid closer attention, you would have seen this part:

 

"regardless of the source, these ten early amino acids can be ranked in order of decreasing abundance in prebiotic contexts"

 

IOW, Miller's early experiments were not important to the paper except as background.  That you didn't bother to pay attention to that once again tells me that you're not asking your questions in good faith.  Once again, I try and be helpful in providing you information and you refuse to even look at it.

 

So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

Then why mention Miller?

 

The rest is still a story and nothing more.

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Gerald McGrew    519

Then why mention Miller?

 

Read the paper and find out.  Or answer my question:  So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

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MarkNigro    660

 

Then why mention Miller?

 

Read the paper and find out.  Or answer my question:  So why are you asking for information if you have no intention of looking at it?

 

I will redo the calculations with the reduced number of amino acids. It still will not help much.

 

Of course an additional evolutionary step will be there after to bring in the other amino acids. The odds in the end are the same.

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