Guest man Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 For that matter, when I mentioned to my husband about guys here claiming men are tempted with lust at seeing a woman breastfeeding without a cover, he gave a look of disgust and said something to the affect of, "Those guys [the ones lusting] have a problem." So when someone admits that this is a stumbling block for them, the correct response is, the problem is theirs, not mine? Did you read my example Man? This really happened. It's not some kind of made up scenario. Yes I did. So was the woman at fault? Or the 2 men? What about my response to Nebula? Is that what the Word instructs us to do. If what I'm doing is causing another to stumble, do I give them a disgusted look and tell them it's their problem, not mine? And what this? Do we ignore it in favor of personal comfort? 1 Corinthians 8 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Since the other guy would never answer the question, should a woman have to hide the shape of her body to avoid causing those weaker to stumble? 1 Corinthians 8 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 I think the discussion went too long without getting to the heart of the matter - love through God's grace. The law and the prophets can be summed up by "love God and then love people". This means both vertical (God to mankind) and horizontal (mankind to mankind). I'm sure some of have thought of this. But perhaps some have missed it - loving people through God's grace and not our own efforts. Perhaps a picture story or example would be easier to understand? Think of us as human beings as cups. We are empty inside. God poors His grace and life into us. I think people have overlooked God's grace (vertical) and how it poors into others (horizontal). What does it look like when we poor grace into the lives of others? What about when we just take God's grace for granted and we ignore giving grace to others? Sure we're full but look at the mess... Grace should be at the center of what we do. Even when we have to call people out for false teaching and speak the truth (sometimes called tough love) we should measure our words with grace. Perhaps we do a better job of this at times then others. But overflowing into others lives as vessels of God's grace, encouragement, peace, kindness, love, etc. is what we're called to do IMO. Thoughts? Hope this helps? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 For that matter, when I mentioned to my husband about guys here claiming men are tempted with lust at seeing a woman breastfeeding without a cover, he gave a look of disgust and said something to the affect of, "Those guys [the ones lusting] have a problem." So when someone admits that this is a stumbling block for them, the correct response is, the problem is theirs, not mine? Did you read my example Man? This really happened. It's not some kind of made up scenario. Yes I did. So was the woman at fault? Or the 2 men? What about my response to Nebula? Is that what the Word instructs us to do. If what I'm doing is causing another to stumble, do I give them a disgusted look and tell them it's their problem, not mine? And what this? Do we ignore it in favor of personal comfort? 1 Corinthians 8 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. You are avoiding the question brother. It was a simple question. In this clear example you read who was at fault, lacking in grace, judgemental, and possibly lusting? Was the woman at fault or the 2 men? Will you give your perspective? I made the question purposefully short so I might get a clearer understanding of your view. Even Firstorm who has taken the other pespective in this discussion agreed the 2 men were wrong and not Christ-like. I considered this last night and other passages that have been raised regarding not making a brother stumble. How do we balance causing another to stubmle (being senstive to conscious) and personal resposibility? Is the woman making adjustments the only solution or even the best solution? A balance to this is what I'm sure we're all seeking. Christ gave clear indication what to do if lusting in one's heart was an issue - cut out your right eye or your hand. Now I'm not advocating a literal removal of your right eye or hand. However, it is possible to remove yourself from that situation? Sit at an angle you won't be tempted? Or if that is not possible avert your eyes? Matt 5:27-30Adultery in the Heart 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. Food for thought. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 I would tend to agree with you except in red. In red I understand what you're saying based on our conversation (and interaction in this thread) I know you've experienced this where you live. I have not and I'm assuming Nebula here hasn't experienced this either? Perhaps just as I mentioned before that different cultures experience breastfeeding in different ways different parts of the country also experience breastfeeding in different ways. I think we're looking at the same coin from a different angle brother Both in S. America and here I've never seen a woman with this attitude "Hey! Everyone look at me!" But I'm not going to devalue your experience or position. I would still say the number of nursing mothers that have this attitude is very small as compared to nursing mothers in general accross states in the U.S. and countries over the world. God bless, GE GE, Let me give you an example to show my point of " doing it for show " so maybe you will better understand the part in red. A church group of 25 people travels on a bus to another church far away for a revival. On the way back they stop at a McDonald's to eat. A mother orders her food and sits down to eat. The minute she takes the first bite, the baby cries and cries because it's hungry. She is sitting near the door, close to the front where the orders are taken. Everyone who comes in to the McDonald's or is placing an order can't help but notice and see the mother and baby. There are plenty of open seats. Some in the corner, isolated from most. The mother lifts her shirt up and begins to breastfeed right there. She makes no attempt to cover herself and all of her breast ( other than the latched on baby ) is exposed. This bothers some of the other brothers and sisters in Christ. So 1 of them goes and asks her to move to a different seat. Even offering to carry her tray and baby bag. The mother says no. If anyone has a problem with her eating her dinner or feeding her baby, then to bad. It's there problem. If they don't want to see then don't look. In this example, I understand she may be tired and hungry just like the baby. But from my point of view she is making a show of it. She has no concern or regard of how her actions affect others. I've seen something very similar to this in my real life. I've tried to distinguish between, breastfeeding with modesty ( your example ) and breastfeeding with no modesty ( my example ). GE, does this help you understand what I'm trying to say better? See this is the crux of the matter in red. I don't know all the facts and I wasn't there. This is clearly an example of a woman not showing grace to those around her. Was she within her rights? Depending on the state then yes. Was this gracious behavior? Nope. Yes, I'd imagine she was tired and hungry. She can't nurse the baby without eating her own food. She just found the first seat she could find. That's understandable IMO. Some questions though... Did anyone offer to help her with the baby while on the bus? If not how long had she been dealing with the baby on her own on the bus? Did anyone help her while she got off the bus or allow her to go first in the line? By the time this question was asked and the offer made was this kind of the last straw for her? I mean honestly if nobody wanted to help me before I might feel a little insulted if all of a sudden people wanted to help me just because they feel uncomfortable. I might definitely feel devalued as a mother, wife?, and person. Just the flip side of the coin brother. (I get around my 1 year old and I get tired in like 5 minutes of chasing and entertaining him. I have a deep respect for my wife btw and what she does by watching him daily.) God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Share Posted August 13, 2013 I think the discussion went too long without getting to the heart of the matter - love through God's grace. The law and the prophets can be summed up by "love God and then love people". This means both vertical (God to mankind) and horizontal (mankind to mankind). Grace should be at the center of what we do. Even when we have to call people out for false teaching and speak the truth (sometimes called tough love) we should measure our words with grace. Perhaps we do a better job of this at times then others. But overflowing into others lives as vessels of God's grace, encouragement, peace, kindness, love, etc. is what we're called to do IMO. Thoughts? Hope this helps? God bless, GE I'll share my thoughts on this. I think between this and what you said earlier about " we are talking about 2 sides of the same coin. " is absolutely correct. In your example, the 2 men were wrong. They showed no love or grace towards the mother. They never considered her or her feelings. Just like in my example the mother showed no grace or love toward the other believers. She did not consider the others feelings. I think what you said about 2 sides of the same coin are accurate. Each one of us should show every nursing mother grace and love, esp. during a difficult time such as breastfeeding. But the Mother should also show grace and love towards everyone else. It goes both ways. I think maybe the perception is one side is saying the mother has no responsibility to show any love or grace to anyone, and the other side is saying that other people don't have to show a mother any grace or love if they are offended. Neither I think is true, but that is the perception. All involved should show grace and love, esteeming others more highly than ourselves. The mother in your example showed grace and love to the other people and was treated wrong for it. Just like the people in my example. Both sides should be showing grace and love to the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted August 13, 2013 Do you see the difference? God bless, GE Yes, GE, I do see the difference. I realize that one is legal and the other is not. I'm totally against both though and I don't understand the strong push to have women breastfeeding in public. Why? Back when nearly all women breastfed it was not done out in front of everyone so why now? But it is their right to do so and it's MY right to think it's tacky and unnecessary for a woman to bring herself down to the level of the family pet. Sorry, IMO, it's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 So was the woman at fault? Or the 2 men? What about my response to Nebula? Is that what the Word instructs us to do. If what I'm doing is causing another to stumble, do I give them a disgusted look and tell them it's their problem, not mine? And what this? Do we ignore it in favor of personal comfort? 1 Corinthians 8 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. You are avoiding the question brother. It was a simple question. In this clear example you read who was at fault, lacking in grace, judgemental, and possibly lusting? Was the woman at fault or the 2 men? Will you give your perspective? I made the question purposefully short so I might get a clearer understanding of your view. Even Firstorm who has taken the other pespective in this discussion agreed the 2 men were wrong and not Christ-like. The verse I posted is my view. You're asking me to pass judgment on 2 individuals on your word only. I can't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest man Posted August 13, 2013 Share Posted August 13, 2013 Do you see the difference? God bless, GE Yes, GE, I do see the difference. I realize that one is legal and the other is not. I'm totally against both though and I don't understand the strong push to have women breastfeeding in public. Why? Back when nearly all women breastfed it was not done out in front of everyone so why now? But it is their right to do so and it's MY right to think it's tacky and unnecessary for a woman to bring herself down to the level of the family pet. Sorry, IMO, it's just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted August 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 13, 2013 The verse I posted is my view. You're asking me to pass judgment on 2 individuals on your word only. I can't do that. I understand what the verse says. I understand your perspective. And I can understand you don't want to take my word on what transpired. It's unfortunate that we can't agree though that at the minimum the 2 men's behavior was unloving and unnecessary. Moving on. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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