Speaking in tongues 2

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

This is your OP. In it you present the idea that in Corinth there was a condition of interpretation. However, the assumptions you make are not supported with Scripture IMO. The passages in 1 Cor. and the conditions presented for orderly worship was referring to speaking in tongues in a public venue. So the condition (public venue) to the conduct of orderly worship (public venue) doesn't apply IMO to speaking in tongues as an act of worship in private (personal prayer language). At least I see no Biblical support for what you're saying. Please clarify?

 

 

 

Yes, let us get back to the beginning of speaking in tongues. It first happened on Pentecost with tongues as a ball of fire descending on heads as a sign of the power of the Holy Spirit to unbelieving and wicked generation that looked for signs. This ball of fire on heads disappeared forever. Then during the period of the establishement of new Churches recorded in the book of Acts, speaking in tongue continued because of continued presence of large number of unbelievers. This is considered as speaking in a existing foreign tongue(known) unknown to the speaker but understood by a few present there; hence, requiring no interpreation. A marvel of God. In one case they subequently prophysied--a great gift.

 

What was happening in Corinth in the absence of Paul( It was not observed when Paul was there with baptisms going on) was people praying loudly to God simultaneously (a typical situation in many Pentecostal based churches) causing nuisance. (This goes against the preaching of Jesus when it comes to praying to God personally Matthew 6:5-7) Do we need prompting by the Holy Spirit for our personal prayers?

 

Paul clearly says he prays in his spirit. There is no involvement of the Holy Spirit here as  claimed by tongue speaking people now. Absolutely there can be no objection to praying personally inside a room with groanings, with unknown tongues, rolling over the floor and what not? That was what Paul was doing. He did not pray in his spirit in an unknown tongue that required interpretaton inside a church. Paul also says that it would be preferable that the same person who speaks in tongue to interpret that. Where is a need to speak in tongue by a person followed by his interpretation. It is better to speak directly instead of wasting his time with the former way of tongue. 

 

Therefore, this interpretation was available only in Corinth as recorded. No where else in the Bible or in Churches it is mentioned. So with the death this worst Corinthian type of church that caused lots of heartaches to Paul (Based on history, not on the Bible) this interpretation part also ceased.

 

 

 

Further the passage doesn't specifiy if the languages spoken with the aid of the Holy Spirit were known or unknown. IMO you are reading into the text and superimposing your perspective on this issue. I've yet to be convinced otherwise.

 

These two types, namely, known and unknown tongues are well known in Pentecostal circles. I have discussed this matter for years with such people and continue to do so in Forums meant exclusively for them.

 

Be blessed.

 

 

 

 

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

Interesting. I see no conflict between the teachings of Paul and Jesus Christ. I believe you are simply misunderstanding the passges in Scripture.

As to the crux of the problem... I do see comments that at the very least imply the Bible is not the inherant, inspired Word of God.

 

 

Please notice the main difference between the OT and the NT. The Law was given in writing by God to Moses and subsequently he added additional parts. Practically, Judaism starts from there. But in case of the NT the truth was made known in Spirit. Books were added later. Therefore, Scriputure has to be understood with the help of the Holy Spirit who was sent specifically for this purpose. I doubt whether we are right in considering copies of records that have been translated depending on the bias and prejudices of the people doing that as authoratative per se.

 

 

 

[Knowingtruth]

I don't agree with your point that Paul repeats everything that is important in more than one epistle.  He doesn't have to mention tongues repeatedly to show people were still speaking in tongues after he was in Corinth.  I never said all interpretations were correct.  I said that two or three people were allowed to give an interpretation.  I am also saying one of those three interpretations may well be correct?  We are to judge the matter based on scripture and discernment. 

 

 

 

But you see Paul has mentioned gifts in three of his epistles in which some gifts were repeatedly mentioned ignoring notably speaking in tongue followed by interpretation. Why is that? In fact even in Corinthians, he wants that to be not preferred.

 

So you agree all interpretations are not correct. So who is giving this incorrect interpretation? Let us be serious in dealing with things that are spiritual. Are you saying you condone imperfection when it comes to understanding God? It is giving room to deviation from the truth?

 

 

 

 

 

Wow! How on earth did you get that out of what I said? I was speaking of the varying forms of praise and worship we see IN THE SCRIPTURES (not one mention of accepting multiple interpretations as equal or all true)

 

Yes, Paul is referring to personal prayer in his spirit. That is personal, not to be expressed loudly--there may not be any need for it. But you admit multiple interpretations: some may be true  and some untrue. Do you think a church should condone utterances of falsehood?

 

 

[Elhanan]

 

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

 

Your historical claim has no merit.  Tongues did wane but certain groups throughout history have experienced tongues-speaking: 

Waldenses in 1100's, Albigenses in 1100's, Franciscans in 1200's, Anabaptists in 1500's, Camisards, 1600's and 1700's,  Quakers, 1600's, in England. Jansenists, 1600's and 1700's in France. I did not claim that demons hate tongues based on Scripture - I plainly wrote that it's based on personal experience.

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Edited August 22, 2013 by Elhanan

[Guest]

 

 

1 Corinthians 14:4

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

 

Also, I saw in another post, someone said that it edifies the person. That's correct and in the bible. But, the word edify is a bad translation. When the KJV was written, there was no English word that meant the same thing as the Greek in the text so they translated it edify. But today we have a word that better matches what the Greek says in this verse. It is charge. Like you would charge a battery. A person who speaks in an unknown tongue charges himself. Inside, in the spirit. That it what the verse is saying. Which is why it is ok to still do in your private prayer. We are even told to pray that we might interpret.

 

Firestormx

Joseph

 

The word "edify" is a perfect translation if you understand what edify means. It means to build or to build up. There was no lack of English, although in modern English, we would probably have chosen a word like "builds". An edifice, is a building. Looking in 6 greek lexicons, I see nothing to justify anythng like "charge", where are you getting that?

 

The Greek word in 1 Cor 14:4 is oikodomei, from oikos - a house and domeo - to build.

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

 

I do not know which type of tongue you are referring to, unknown or known tongue? I believe the unknown tongue that was observed only in Corinth disappeared.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps you could show biblical evidence of this?

 

Please read prayerfully the entire book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapeters 12 to 14. Also please tell me where in the Bible the same gifts are going to be given everywhere?

 

 

None of the gifts are given to everyone, if that is what you mean.  Yet, because you do not speak in tongues, you stand against the gift.  Do you also stand against the other gifts  that the Holy Spirit has not given you?  What gifts has He given you?

 

That is not what I mean. I believe spiritual gifts are more than what has been listed by Paul. In that I have experienced all the seven gifts in varied degrees. I will never seek the last two as many Pentecostal do since Paul himself doesn't recommend. When the seventh ceases, automatically the last one disappears. We cannot think of one gift dependent on another!

[Knowingtruth]

 

 

Arguments made that tongues have ceased because of their supposed disappearance from mention in the epistles and absence in one's personal experience are essentially arguments based on silence - which is by nature a very weak argument to begin with. Although not specifically referring to tongues, Paul stated that the Spirit worked miracles amongst the Galatians - Gal 3:5.  Note that in this verse the Greek verbs are written in the present tense denoting the ongoing continuous nature of Spirit-wrought miracles amongst the Galatians. In other words at the time of Paul's letter, miracles did not cease but continued to occur the Galatian church.  In terms of today, I know a person very well who speaks in tongues.  She has found tongues useful in spiritual warfare - confronting demons (demons hate tongues employed against them) and also has the gift of discernment of spirits - able to identify the occurrence of someone speaking in a false tongue.

Tongues did cease for thousands of years. It got revived about 100 years back. You have no Scripture to indicate that demons hate tongues. I believe many spiritual gifts have continued, and least preferred ones that were  local in Corinth have ceased.

 

it has been my personal experience that demons do not like people praying in tongues.

 

I have been pressed to prove by Scripture all that I say here. I think, you need to consider the same despite your experience. Nevertheless, since I have an open mind, I would like to hear about your personal experience.

[Knowingtruth]

Nobody has to show that unknown tongues are mentioned over and over and over again to prove they continued.  I know they continue to this day because of a scripture in Acts 2:39

 

 

What was happening in the book of Acts 2:39 cannot be compared to Corinth because the verse doesn't include speaking in tongue! Besides Peter never spoke in unknown tongue!(that is tongue that people did not understand what he said with utterances given by the Holy Spirit)

 

 

 

 

I have also seen them in church services, and I often pray in tongues.  You can deny it all you want, but people continue to pray in unknown tongues to this day. 

 

If they do that in private without causing disturbance in open, who can touch them?

 

 

 

BTW, unknown only means to the audience hearing it.  All tongues are real languages.  Some are known on earth, and some are angelic languages. 

 

Sorry, it is your assumption. No man can speak angelic language as long as he is mortal man on earth!

 

 

 

The Corinthian Church was not as awful as you are making it out to be.  They had sinners in their midst they had failed to deal with, and Paul rebuked them for that.  They had been doing things out of order, and Paul straightened them out in that regard.  There is no indication Paul was saying they were wrong for speaking in tongues. 

 

The trouble is that what people speak in tongue using their spirit, is claimed as that of utterance of the Holy Spirit! The big problem was instead of speaking personally in closed doors, they were making that as a issue of big demonstration of how good they are in strong vocal chords that too with an unknown tongue.

 

 

 

You want me to show you places in other epistles where we find people speaking in unknown tongues?  I want you to show me where in Corinthians the people are told they are wrong for speaking in an unknown tongue?  I am not talking about being out of order.  I want to know where Paul said they were wrong to speak in an unknown tongue at all?  He had no trouble rebuking them for allowing sin to continue in their midst?  Why was this matter so delicate he couldn't simply tell them they shouldn't speak at all in an unknown tongue?

 

 

I have answered this elsewhere. Already there is an objection that I am repeating over and over again. Anyway, this is not a new question for me! This  known and unknown tongue business is very elementary for Pentecostal people. It is simple to explain this. Whenever you hear something that you cannot understand, it becomes an unknown tongue. This differs from what occured during Pentecost. Then they were speaking a known foreign language that some people could understand without an interpreter. Paul objected to disorderly shouting of this unknown tongue in Corinth.

 

 

 

Everything you have said is nothing more than your opinion.  You have absolutely no way to prove any of it.  You can show that certain books don't discuss the topic again, but it is pure conjecture on your part as to why?

 

 

Do we have to go back to OT times to work through the letters of the Bible? As I mentioned earlier, can I show in the Bible that the temple has been destroyed for good? What if people refuse to believe the destruction and insist that it is very much there!

[Guest Butero]

I just want to quickly address two things.  First of all, having been in many Pentecostal services over the years, I know how the people would pray out loud in tongues at the same time.  This doesn't cause any problems.  What you would have is a specific time where everyone would be presented with prayer requests, and they would all pray out loud for those requests at the same time in their own words.  Some of the prayers were in their own language, and some in tongues.  Since everyone was busy praying, they weren't bothered by what others were saying, in English or in tongues.  The same thing applies during worship.  If everyone is praising God, they aren't concerned with what others are saying, in English or in tongues.

 

As for tongues with interpretation, you are always going to have someone get in the flesh and give out a false interpretation.  That is why we have to have discernment to figure out if the message is Biblical?  Ministers also will sometimes preach something in English that is not correct, but we don't look to stop all preaching of the gospel because some messages are less than perfect.  Neither should we seek to stop tongues and interpretation because there are times where someone will say something that is incorrect. 

 

Yes a man can speak in the tongues of angels while being mortal and on earth, or at least the Spirit of God can through him. 

 

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, and a tinkling cymbal.  1 Corinthians 13:1

[Knowingtruth]

 

Please read prayerfully the entire book of Acts and 1 Corinthians chapeters 12 to 14. Also please tell me where in the Bible the same gifts are going to be given everywhere?

 

 

 

 

No.  That is not how it works.  I have read and studied the entire New Testament numerous times, including Acts and 1 Corinthians.  When I say "show me the scripture," I don't mean point me to a book.  I mean show me the specific passages which you are claiming mean what you say they mean.

 

 

What I meant was that a few verses cannot give a complete picture of the context.

 

 

Not everyone will receive the same gifts, but wherever the spiritual gifts are mentioned, it is always assumed that as a believer, every single believer is going to be given at least a couple of spiritual gifts because they are necessary to edify, empower and guide the church.

 

It is likely everyone gets a gift or gifts. One may not get anything at all. That should not bother as long as he gives importantance in cultivating  the fruit of the Spirit, that is, love. My question is why people are asked to seek speaking in tongue when Paul said prefer prophesying? Is it because it is easier to exhibit in various forms?

 

 

 

The notion that only the original Apostles were given these gifts is preposterous, and scripture does not support that theory.

 

One thing  is sure. Jesus did not speak in tongue. Except Paul all other apostles did not speak in inknown tongue. Paul also did not speak inside a church.