Is "eternity" really "eternal"?

[Guest Colossians]

How long does the lake of fire burn?

The lake of fire is God Himself. Therefore it burns for as long as He exists.

"Our God is a consuming fire"

[borntorebel]

I said,

By the definition of the Greek words used here, it isn't a definite period of time.  That's good enough for me.

_man says,

However, this contradicts your earlier statement that it is a defined period of time.  Which is it?  Will the lake of fire someday go out, or does the lake of fire burn for an undefined period of time?

Yes, you're right. Sorry, I just reread my statement and it does sound a little confusing. I was in a hurry. Yes, they are defined periods of time, however, just like we don't know how long this age will last until Jesus returns, we don't know how long the lake of fire will burn since God doesn't tell us. Sorry if my mistatement led to confusion. I hope this clears up the misundersanding.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

Anne says,

Am I interpreting this correctly, do you not believe in "hell", or a place of eternal torment?

Where/what's Geenna then?

No problem Anne, thanx for the question. You're right I don't believe in hell as it is defined by religious institutions. The word 'hell' doesn't mean "a place of eternal torment". The word 'hell' is translated from 'hades', 'gehenna' and 'tartaros'. Here are the following meanings;

Hades - Strong's #86 - from #1 (as a negative participle) and #1492; properly unseen, i.e. "Hades" or the place (state) of departed souls.

Geena (ghehenah) - Strong's # 1067 - valley of (the son of) Hinnom; a valley of Jerusaelm used (fig.) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting (eonian)punishment.

Tartaros - Strong's #5020 - (the deepest abyss of hades); to incacerate in eternal (eonian) torment.

Eonian added by me.

Hades means the 'unseen' or 'imperceptible'. In olde English, the word 'helle' meant to conceal or ocver, which is very close to the actual meaning of 'hades'. There was an olde English saying, to "put the potatoes in hell" when the people were burying hteir potatoes in the ground for the winter. It doesn't mean an "eternal place of torment. When Christ uses Geena he is using it parabolically to describe the torment for those who aren't His. Yes there will be punishment for those who aren't His, but it doesn't last "forever". God will cleanse all people and as He says, "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:3-4; "...because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Tim. 4:10; "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Phlp. 2:10-11. I believe that God will accomplish what He purposed in Christ.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[Guest shiloh357]

I find it interesting how selective universalists are in how they treat the Bible. They accept parts of it, and then reject the parts they don't want. That is a tell-tale sign of false teachers.

Here are verses that use ainion as eternal in the abosulte sense and Universalists do seem to oppose it used that way in these Scriptures.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 20:28, "and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son."

It is these verses that Universalists have a problem with. It is a doublestandard. When they don't like what verse says, they try to change the meaning of aionion to something else.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left,

[Anne]

So whilst you aren't willing to put a time frame on eternal torment, you have stated that it won't last forever. That in the end they too will be cleansed of their sin.

It sounds to me that you are saying to the sinner, don't worry if you go to hell, you'll only endure the torment for a little while and then your sins will be cleansed!!!

Tell me i am wrong in assuming this is what you believe?

Saved by the blood of the Lamb

Anne

[2bba]

Hell ends up in the Lake of Fire.

Time is officiallly ended by God.

You decide to determine how long the Lake of Fire will last so you take your watch out and time it. The watch no longer means anything because while the watch works perfectly it never moves. There is no longer any period to measure.

[apothanein kerdos]

Super Jew,

Sweet, now you're in my realm of study!

The Greek word aionis is used to refer to something outside of time. It is a "time" outside of time. It has no beginning or end, thus cannot be defined by a specific time period. It stems from aion which can mean a perpetual time period (which perpetual means ongoing) or can refer to a specific time period.

Sorry Super Jew (does that mean you're are super law abider, therefore not believing in Jesus?), looks like you need to do more studying in this "realm". Aion means age, a definite period of time. Aionios describes aion, and since it is an adjective word, it can't be anything more than the root word it describes. Hourly is an adjective of hour, it doesn't mean anything more than pertaining to an hour. This is what aionios means, pertaining to the age(s). Tell me this, how can aion or aionios mean eternity, eternal, everlasting, evermore, forever, world, age, saints, never? I am not trying to understand Greek from and English mindset, I am studying God's word, and seeking understanding of what it says by looking at the meaning of the original Greek words in order to properly understand what is being said. I don't change the meanings of words or scripture to fit my theological belief system, I change my belief system according to scripture. I am not a Greek scholar, but I have talked to or read material of those who are and they say this is properly translated into "age", not "eternity".

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right that aionios is an adjective, but it's used to describe whatever noun it is assigned to in sentence...not to describe it's root word. I'm not trying to come down on you, but I've studied the language and you haven't...and you're trying to tell me that I'm wrong on a basic definition of the word?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...14520-6664.html

http://www.kypros.org/cgi-bin/lexicon

Both of those are just a glimpse into this matter. The fact is, whilst a Universalist may denounce that aionios means "ageless" or "without beginning or end" they are hard pressed to prove it. In fact, I implore you to show me a Greek lexicon or dictionary that states otherwise.

[Ovedya]

Yes, you're right. Sorry, I just reread my statement and it does sound a little confusing. I was in a hurry. Yes, they are defined periods of time, however, just like we don't know how long this age will last until Jesus returns, we don't know how long the lake of fire will burn since God doesn't tell us. Sorry if my mistatement led to confusion. I hope this clears up the misundersanding.

Here is my point: Revelation 20:10 says that the beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire and tormented for ever and ever. This clearly indicates that the toment that are suffering is from the lake of fire. If that is the case then the lake of fire must burn for ever and ever.

According to you, "For ever and ever" is a defined period of time, because the Greek word Aion indicates a specific period of time. Now, this could be true if there were only one Aion there (Very slim chance, but it could be true). But there is not one, there are two. So that must mean that the indication is that the torment lasts for ever and ever - a non-specific period of time. In fact, the indication is exactly as I and others here have contended: The torment suffered by the false prophet and the beast is eternal.

Let me ask you this: According to the Lord Jesus's statement in Matt. 18:22, how many times should we forgive our brothers?

If I were to adopt your method of interpretation I would have to say exactly 490 times. After 490 times of forgiving my brother for an offense I am free to not forgive him. Is that right?

No, it is not right. The Lord did not intend to enumerate the exact number of times that we should forgive our brothers for an offense. His ussage of seventy times seven was to show the disciples that there is no limit to the number of times we should forgive our brothers.

And so also, the ussage of two "evers" in Rev. 20:10 tells us that the torment suffered by the false prophet and the beast is eternal, it is forver and ever and ever and ever, and so on. The torment is eternal. The torment comes from the lake of fire, therefore, the lake of fire burns forever.

[borntorebel]

shiloh357 says,

I find it interesting how selective universalists are in how they treat the Bible.  They accept parts of it, and then reject the parts they don't want.  That is a tell-tale sign of false teachers.

What parts have I rejected? Do you reject the scriptures I showed where God says all will bow before Christ and confess Him as Lord? Do you deny that God says in scripture He is the potter and we are the clay, how dare the clay complain to the potter about how he/she was made? Those are very clear thoughts presented in no uncertain terms in scripture. How do you fit those very clear scriptures into your theology? Why do you reject them? What's good for the goose is good for the gander shiloh.

shiloh357 says,

Here are verses that use ainion as eternal in the abosulte sense and Universalists do seem to oppose it used that way in these Scriptures.

John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal  life. 

John 20:28, "and I give eternal  life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal  life believed."

Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal  life."

Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal  life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal  God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."

Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal  life."

1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal  dominion! Amen."

1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal  life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"

1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal  life, and this life is in His Son."

These verses use the words "aion" and "aionios" which mean age and pertaining to the ages. When one trys to twist these words to mean "eternity" is when you have to change the meaning of scripture. Eonian life is life for the age or ages. Does anything in scripture suggest we will live forever? Yes, scripture says when Christ returns, we will put on IMMORTALITY, which means death-less-ness, without death. The words "aion" and "aionios" however don't mean time without end.

It is these verses that Universalists have a problem with.  It is a doublestandard.  When they don't like what verse says, they try to change the meaning of aionion to something else.

NO, to make aionios mean "eternity" you must change the meaning. I don't have a problem with any of these verses.

Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. (First, this is a parable. If you don't believe it is, why don't churches have people cutting off their feet and hands when they cause them to sin?)

Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" (Aionios = ages)

Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Aionios = ages)

Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin." (Aionios = ages; It isn't sin, it's damnation. The Greek word used here is never translated into sin. Now who's changing God's word to fit their theology?)

Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life. (Aionios = ages)

Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." (Aionios = ages)

2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," (Aionios = ages)

Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."(Aionios = ages)

The Universalists just want to pick and choose what verses they wish to accept and change the meaning of ainion depending on whether they like what a verse says or not.  Shows bad scholarship.  The refusal to accept the concept of eternal punishment is just wishful thinking on the part of universalists.  They have no foundation.

We have the ultimate foundation, not the foundation of sand which is man's logic, but God's scripture. I accept every single one of these verses and don't have to change anything. Aion means age. If you think it means eternity, then you deny the fact that Jesus will hand over His rule to God when all is under His rule. Why must YOU continually change and deny clear and simple facts of scripture? I'll let you pick any verse you want, it doesn't matter because I'm not the one changing the meanings of words to a totally opposite and different meaning, you are.

May God's grace, power and peace be with you,

Ron

[borntorebel]

Anne says,

So whilst you aren't willing to put a time frame on eternal torment, you have stated that it won't last forever.  That in the end they too will be cleansed of their sin.

It has nothing to do with me NOT wanting to put a time frame. The time frame hasn't ended and God doesn't give us an exact time frame for this age or the age when the lake of fire is mentioned. He does, however, tell us the age in between will last 1000 years.

Anne says,

It sounds to me that you are saying to the sinner, don't worry if you go to hell, you'll only endure the torment for a little while and then your sins will be cleansed!!!

No, that would be denying the entire salvation message. Have you not read how terrible it is to be in the hands of God when He isn't pleased with you? If you truly believe it will be just a little slap on the wrist or something of that sort, you have no understanding of God the Father and the punishment He can mete out. I have no desire whatsoever to go through that fire. Anyone who thinks this won't be unpleasant in the least will have a rude awakening.

May God's grae, power and peace be with you,

Ron