a-seeker Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Lets let him tell us himself:::: Matt 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV Interesting.... so you advocate that anyone who does good works (i.e. obeys their conscience, and is altruistic) will be acknowledged by Christ? I am not retorting! I merely wish to know, I promise. clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,117 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,851 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Lets let him tell us himself:::: Matt 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV Interesting.... so you advocate that anyone who does good works (i.e. obeys their conscience, and is altruistic) will be acknowledged by Christ? I am not retorting! I merely wish to know, I promise. clb I'm saying that Jesus makes that decision and I don't have a clue except for what I read in the Bible itself. We know what to do to be pretty sure how to be with him, but it just isn't our business to start telling someone they can or can't spend eternity with the Lord no matter who they are...... or who we are..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,136 Content Per Day: 4.63 Reputation: 27,817 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted January 22, 2014 Blessings Everyone... In looking at what Jesus says we must realize that when we submit ourselves to Christ & receive the Holy Spirit that these things we do are a result of the fruits of the Spirit that abides in us......it is not our works but our love for Christ,Jesus says if you love me then you will keep my commands....which is love,we are motivated to do these things because of Christ in us and His love.....................how can one claim that Christ is abiding in them & yet not show love to one another? Wit love,in Christ-Kwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Lets let him tell us himself:::: Matt 25:31-46 31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV Interesting.... so you advocate that anyone who does good works (i.e. obeys their conscience, and is altruistic) will be acknowledged by Christ? I am not retorting! I merely wish to know, I promise. clb I'm saying that Jesus makes that decision and I don't have a clue except for what I read in the Bible itself. We know what to do to be pretty sure how to be with him, but it just isn't our business to start telling someone they can or can't spend eternity with the Lord no matter who they are...... or who we are..... The Bible only offers salvation to those who accept Jesus and are born again. Jesus said that we must be born again to enter the Kingdom. There is no salvation available for anyone outside of Christ. In the Scripture you provide above, the sheep are doing what the do because they are sheep. It is the outgrowth of their nature. They are not sheep because of what they did; rather, what they did revealed that they are sheep. Same with the goats. Salvation isn't ever based on what you do or don't do. What you do or don't do reveals if you were ever saved in the first place. Our works are the outgrowth of our relationship with Jesus. They don't procure that relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SandyU Posted January 26, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 64 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/13/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 26, 2014 There are people who will never hear the name of Jesus or hear Gods word. I believe God the Father of all (the Creator) reveals himself to people around the world who seek him. When he reveals himself it will never be in and idol or created thing. He will reveal himself as the father of all the creator, He has relationship with people who know him. Even though you begin this relationship through faith not works, the relationship changes you. Jesus will know his own because they hear his voice and follow him. They will love others as he loves. God did this so men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. For in him we live and move and have our being. ...Acts 17:27-28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-seeker Posted January 27, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 589 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 42 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/06/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 27, 2014 I was watching a video of Sam Harris criticizing Christians for believing that all believers in other faiths wind up in Hell, since Christianity is the only Way. I got to thinking about it and the verse John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." I have long thought that this meant all (even decent) people of other faiths wind up in Hell for not believing on Him, even though they never heard the Gospel. But this is one interpretation of the verse. I have come around to considering what sends someone to Hell. It is rejection of Christ. These hundreds of millions of people did not have the chance, so why should we interpret the verse to mean that God will not provide a chance for them in a mysterious way? This is known as Inclusivism; many Christians, including CS Lewis thought this way, as do I. Exclusivism is the former idea. I have taken much chastisement for holding this view, but I think it is the only rational way in accordance with the Love of God to answer this perplexing issue. I am a very enthusiastic supporter of missionary efforts and this view does not diminish the urgency of the Gospel at all. Let me know what you think. I have been led to something like inclusivism myself: At first there is, of course, the question of those who were never exposed to the gospel (someone above mentioned internet, news, circulation of literature as correcting that problem; these are late developments), by which I had in mind native americans and Africans and what not. But then I thought about another class of "non-believers". Neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor any patriarch, nor any king "who did right in the eyes of the Lord" knew Jesus Christ. And this forced me to consider the possibilities: a) that they all are doomed b) that they knew Christ but never published this knowledge c) that they did not know Christ, but that their knowledge of YHWH was sufficient for salvation d) that they did not know Christ, but would eventually. D seemed the most likely to me; but then "d" requires that some form of introduction be given them post-mortem, i.e. between this life and the resurrected life. Now, if these men (and women) could be granted a "late encounter" with the risen Lord, why should not others? Lewis paints a similar picture in The Great Divorce where inhabitants of something like purgatory are granted a visit to the edges of heaven where they are given the opportunity to renounce their sins and enter bliss. clb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted January 27, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 I think the right approach is to leave the question open and continue evangelization efforts as we are called to do. Better obviously to offer salvation in the here and now that we know of. But I would agree with your idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I think the right approach is to leave the question open and continue evangelization efforts as we are called to do. Better obviously to offer salvation in the here and now that we know of. But I would agree with your idea. The Bible doesn't leave the question open, and neither should we. The Bible is very clear that unless you are born again, you will not entery the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus didn't mince words on that. There is only one way to God and through Jesus. There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I have been led to something like inclusivism myself: At first there is, of course, the question of those who were never exposed to the gospel (someone above mentioned internet, news, circulation of literature as correcting that problem; these are late developments), by which I had in mind native americans and Africans and what not. God will deal with them in a manner that is consistent with His righteous character, so there is no need to feel that any one will be unfairly excluded from the Kingdom. We have to trust Him in that matter, even if we don't know exactly what the will look like. Having said that, it doesn't negate the fact that salvation is through Jesus and Jesus alone. But then I thought about another class of "non-believers". Neither Abraham, nor Moses, nor any patriarch, nor any king "who did right in the eyes of the Lord" knew Jesus Christ. They were not a class of unbelievers. The Gospel, was preached to Abraham according to Paul in Galatians 3. The Gospel of salvation by grace through faith is an Old Testament concept. The only difference is historical perspective. It appears that we assume they had no understanding of a future Messiah who would redeem them from sin and that assumption is incorrect. They were putting their faith in the Savior to come. We put our faith in the Savior who came. And this forced me to consider the possibilities: And this forced me to consider the possibilities: a) that they all are doomed b) that they knew Christ but never published this knowledge c) that they did not know Christ, but that their knowledge of YHWH was sufficient for salvation d) that they did not know Christ, but would eventually. All of those possibitlies are mistaken. D seemed the most likely to me; but then "d" requires that some form of introduction be given them post-mortem, i.e. between this life and the resurrected life. Now, if these men (and women) could be granted a "late encounter" with the risen Lord, why should not others? Lewis paints a similar picture in The Great Divorce where inhabitants of something like purgatory are granted a visit to the edges of heaven where they are given the opportunity to renounce their sins and enter bliss. You need to study the redemptive theology that comprises most of the Old Testament. God related to mankind redemptively in the Old Testament and the Gospel is all over the place in the OT writings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray wolf Posted January 27, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 28 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,046 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 194 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/25/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/30/1960 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 Then I would say Dr. Harris' words should be taken seriously and we'd better make sure everyone hears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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