"And the earth gave forth" God made us by way of evolution.

[fromeasttowest]

Welcome~!

 

~

 

Do You Believe In The Jesus Of The Bible

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:  Ephesians 3:9

 

Or The Jesus Of The Evolutionary Tales

 

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

 

Please Tell Us A Little Of Yourself

Yes i do believe in the Jesus of the Bible. I thank God every time I pray for what He went through out of his love for me.  I also believe that the mystery in Ephesian 3:9 is the mystery of the gospel of grace through Jesus Christ. And I believe that since I started out as an idea of God's before the universe was made that my existence still qualifies as him "making" me. Even if he made me through a process over eons and eons. If it was his will then he still made me.

Don't worry I'm not one of these guys that says Jesus got married and didn't really rise from the dead and yada yada yada. I'm not a Di Vinci code christian wanna-be. I believe in Jesus just like you. I also believe that  Isaiah  

9“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,

those who are nothing but potsherds

among the potsherds on the ground.

Does the clay say to the potter,

‘What are you making?’

Does your work say,

‘The potter has no hands’?

10Woe to the one who says to a father,

‘What have you begotten?’

or to a mother,

‘What have you brought to birth?’

11“This is what the Lord says—

the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:

Concerning things to come,

do you question me about my children,

or give me orders about the work of my hands?

12It is I who made the earth

and created mankind on it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

13I will raise up Cyrus^b in my righteousness:

 

--- is telling his fellow Jews not to question God about how He goes about setting the course of their nation. Even if He wants to use a foreign Medo-Persian king named Cyrus to help their land be restored after the exile than He can. Because God made Israel. It's not speaking to Christians who are amazed at his process of creation.       

 

Well I'm just a Christian who wants to talk about the Bible with other Christians. And who isn't very tech savvy. I'm sorry for doing the thread thing wrong.

[fromeasttowest]

Hi there and welcome to Worthy blessings as you fellowship with us

hey thanks!

[fromeasttowest]

Also on a side note it's interesting to note that all those crazy ages in the old testament are either multiples of 5 of multiples of 5 plus 7.  Perhaps these ages are based upon a ancient Sumerian counting system before the idea of zero being a number was established.  Or maybe It's speaking of the house of noah the house of Adam lived on for these long years.  Or maybe we really did live that long way back then.  

[gray wolf]

I thought that this was the science faith forum but welcome anyway. About your timeline... Sensible but doesn't it conflict with Genesis 1, 24 hour days? And Gen 2 about bringing life to dust? I'm not saying that I am against evolution, although I do have a reservation about that. But reading the Biblical events sequence and its zenith (creation of man) seem to be at odds with what you propose.

I would always advise caution when describing that scientific theories fulfill Biblical teachings. Scientific hypotheses and theories sometimes are changed or abandoned (particularly cosmology but also in life sciences) and then where are you? I recently heard William Lane Craig refer to singularity as if it were fact. We should know better. Personally, I am of Gould's Nonoverlapping Magesteria mindset.

hey what's up?:-)

your first question: It does conflict if you interpret the day as a 24 hour day. Which is an understandable way of interpreting it because it says over and over again "and there was evening and morning a third day (yowm)". So I understand but then I read a few verses later in Genesis 2:4 it sums up what just happened by saying "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day (yowm) that the Lord God made earth and heaven." NASB Here it says it all happened in one day now? So either the Bible conflicts itself or we are interpreting it wrong. I think (now I'm not claiming this to be some holy revelation this is just what I think) I think perhaps that the story was presented to humanity in the seven day format to provide closure for each segment of creation and to show that God is not chaotic and to create an example to us on how we should go about our week. But now that we are in the final hours and knowledge has greatly increased we understand the fine details on the way he created us.

Question two: The dust to life verse. I love this verse. Think about it. Why would God need dust to form us? Why wouldn't he simply create us out of thin air instantly? It says he formed us out of dust. Forming something takes time. This is a beautiful verse you see we are truly made of dust so to speak. The elements that make up our body are the same elements that make up the earth-the dust. From dust we came and to dust we will return. By decomposing and becoming dirt. We came forth from the earth just as the plants and animals did in Genesis 1. He evolved us into being.

---Pantheism was everywhere when the creation story was first being told. If God would have been frank with us and explained evolution to us the way we understand it today the ancient people back then would have thought what? We share traits with apes? We have gills during an early stage as a fetus? Lets worship the apes! We are half ape and fish. They would have turned it into a pantheistic thing. So he disguised the truth from humanity like he always does until we are mature enough to handle it.

A quick note about the word Yom in Genesis 2:4. This passage is thought by many to be a second account of creation, but I am not sure about that. The word in this case does not have the article, I believe. The, indicating that it probably means time, which is how the Catholic bible translates it. Otherwise it would be a contradiction. Edited October 9, 2013 by gray wolf

[thomas t]

Yes it says, "let us make man in our image".  Well if God's ingenious and beautifully harmonious plan was that we would be created by a process that he set in motion and willed and orchestrated wouldn't that still count as Him making us? He still totally did make us. Besides he made us from dust right?

 

My suggestion: Different wording => different interpretation.

In my opinion, because the wording is so much different from what was said before concerning plants and animals, there must have been a special creation different from all the other creations. So my conclusion is: seperate creation of man.

 

 

 

Evolution is the perfect way to create us because it forces us to believe in God based on faith.

what you are saying to back up evolution would be true for special creation of man, too. No?

 

I disagree with you in that evolution would have been a perfect way. In my opinion, it was seperate creation. God was having different goals when he created man:

 

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Gen 1:26 bolded mine

 

So, man is able to

* be of divine image

* be of divine likeness

* rule over the fish and the birds and the livestock and the wild animals and all the creatures that move along the ground

Are you going to explain this human particularity using the ToE? I'm curious...

 

 

 

Why the distinction between Sons of God and daughters of humans?

 

But I find it confusing that you chose the sons of God when you wrote that there were people around with no spirit, why them of all people? Perhaps hominides were around that day and counted as some of the other animals.

[Guest]

Well I'm just a Christian who wants to talk about the Bible with other Christians. And who isn't very tech savvy. I'm sorry for doing the thread thing wrong.

 

 

Beloved, Technology Does Not Make Any Believer Savvy

 

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4

 

Nor Will Dumping Evolutionary Fantasies

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? Isaiah 29:16

 

Over Jesus And The Word 

 

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. Psalms 33:6

 

Of The LORD

 

And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Ephesians 3:9

 

Make It

 

Yea, hath God said, Genesis 3:1(c )

 

True

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

 

~

 

There Is A Movement Among Church Leaders Today

To Accept Man's Thoughts As Gospel

And The Gospel As Junk

 

... "'fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be 'one of the big enemies of the 21st century.' 'Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other.'" http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/fundamentalism.htm

 

 

Please Do Not Be

 

On the Fundamentals of the Faith

• Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America. (about 1/10th way down the transcript page)

• Now the word "fundamentalist" actually comes from a document in the 1920s called the Five Fundamentals of the Faith. And it is a very legalistic, narrow view of Christianity ... (a little more than 1/2 way down transcripts page) http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/pewreligion.htm#fundamentals

 

Deceived

 

 FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH

 

There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we agree:

 

1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9).

2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27).

3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14).

4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15).

5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20).

And those who disagree with any of the above doctrines are not Christians at all. Rather, they are the true heretics.

So disagreements are perfectly acceptable within the confines of Christianity, because our salvation does not hinge upon doctrines other than the above five.

 

But if some deny even one of the five fundamentals mentioned above, they have departed from the faith, "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). By denying the above scriptural doctrines, they have heaped to themselves "teachers, having itching ears" (2 Timothy 4:3); thereby even "denying the Lord that bought them" (2 Peter 2:1). These are the true heretics, who are preaching "another Jesus", according to 2 Corinthians 11:4: or if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. And later in this same chapter, Paul refers to these people as the ministers of Satan, in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

So, please - if you take offense to differences in lesser doctrines, don't think that we are condemning you as unbelievers or heretics. Nothing could be further from the truth. As long as you hold to the five fundamentals of the faith, you may join the debate. And together, we shall reprove the unfruitful works of darkness (Ephesians 5:11). http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/fivefundementals.pdf

 

~

 

So Do Get To Know The Jesus Of The Bible

 

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:11

 

And Please Do Give Him His Due

 

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Isaiah 42:8

 

And Do Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

 

Love, Joe

[fromeasttowest]

    Jesus is God in the flesh, he was born of a virgin, His sacrifice nullified the Law, He literally rose from the dead after three days, and everything in the Bible is true because God is true.  I have faith in all these things. What I don't have faith in is people. Very good people have misinterpreted scripture and doctrines out of ignorance before.(and hey maybe that's me) Most of Paul's letters to the churches were sent out to fix these many many misinterpretations by good people.  So all I'm saying is I think that if God created everything by a planned process wouldn't that still qualify as Him making it? That's all I'm saying.

        

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?[I totally agree that God made me I am not saying that God didn't make me, He planned to make me before the Universe was here] or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?[i am definitely not accusing God of having no understanding, I am making the opposite argument I think "evolutionary creationism" speaks of a higher God, a way more awe inspiring God, truly an all knowing and all powerful God, than a God that would create things like poof there's a dog and poof there's a wolf]   

[fromeasttowest]

I don't really think that man was a separate creation so to speak. Though Genesis certainty does give us two angles of the creation story. I think chapter 1 is a broad overview of creation and it presents the creation of man and women as a single act. Then in Gen 2:4b-24 the author zooms in and presents us with the details of day 6.  The distinction of man and women are brought into sharp focus.  Chapters one and two are not chronological , -chapters 2:4b-24 simply present in greater detail some of what Gen 1 merely summarizes.    

 

I'm speculating that perhaps these mighty Nephilim men who were completely void of morals were the "sons of God" because that phrase is used of demons (in Job) and mighty men (in Psalms) in the Bible. I speculate that if Adam and Eve are truly the first human beings in the truest sense of the word "human" because they are the first two to be given spirit. Then I would think these Nephilim, these "sons of God" kind of fit the part of all the other humans on the earth who do not possess a spirit. And it makes sense that you would destroy them all. Merely being an evolutionary by product.   And it makes sense that these people would simply not exist not going to Heaven or Hell. With this view you can see that God did not make a mistake in creating these humans, the view that he had to "fix" his mistake is false. He was just trimming off the excess evolutionary unnecessary spiritless human by product so to speak.       

Edited October 10, 2013 by fromeasttowest

[thomas t]

Good day,

I stay with my opinion concerning special creation of man.

 

 

 

 the "sons of God" because that phrase is used of demons (in Job)

I think there is no indication in Job or other scripture that the sons of God mentioned in Job were demons.

[thomas t]

 

Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?[I totally agree that God made me I am not saying that God didn't make me, He planned to make me before the Universe was here] or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?[i am definitely not accusing God of having no understanding, I am making the opposite argument I think "evolutionary creationism" speaks of a higher God, a way more awe inspiring God, truly an all knowing and all powerful God, than a God that would create things like poof there's a dog and poof there's a wolf]   

hum - when somebody speaks of "making", I personally think of different things than opening up a process that makes it.

 

If I undertand you right, you are telling us here that God would have had recourse to active creationism - you paraphrased it by a "poof" - only if he were less than all powerful. He would have chosen evolution otherwise, if I got the red highlighted phrase right.

 

So now consider you're wrong and he actually made dog and wolf through a poof as you would put it. In this scenario, aren't you making the same exact thing you are professing not to do, which is accusing God of proceeding in a powerless way? And I think this is what Joe was referring to...

 

Just my 2 cents,

Thomas