Which is the fairy tale: Faith or Science?

[Guest shiloh357]

Isn't it also possible that a group of his followers stole the body and, in the process of traveling at night, were stopped by soldiers for being suspicious.  A fight breaks out and the men carrying the body are killed.  The soldiers don't know or particularly care about them or the body they were carrying, and so leave them in an unmarked grave.  Admittedly, I just made this up off the top of my head, but it fits your claims equally well:  Jesus was a historical person & lots of people say the tomb was empty.  In addition, consider which is more likely:  that a someone rose from the dead or that someone stole his body and was killed in a relatively mundane way?  

 

All this to say, the fact that Jesus likely existed and that many later writers note that Christians believed the tomb to be empty does not show that the bible is credible.

 

The notion that someone stole the body is actually very unlikely.

 

For one thing, the disciples had no incentive to steal the body.  They did not accept Jesus' claim that He would rise from the dead.  Furthermore, in the Gospel accounts, they were afraid for their very lives, fearing that they were about suffer the same fate of crucifixion.   These men wanted to be invisible to the authorities.  They were not about to risk being seen, much less attempt to engage a 16-man Roman garrison stationed in front of the tomb to prevent the body from being stolen.

 

Secondly, the empty tomb was actually quite important for the disciples after Jesus' resurrection.   Don't forget, they claimed to have experienced Jesus AFTER He rose from the dead.  They claimed to have eaten with Him, talked to Him, touched Him and saw Him ascend into heaven.   This experience changed them from being afraid of death to being willing to face down the worst death imaginable for the sake of their claims that they were witness to resurrected Jesus.

 

Their enemies could not refute their claim that Jesus was alive.  The notion that his body was stolen could not be supported, even though they tried to spread that rumor.  The problem is that Jesus was seen alive by more than 500 people before His ascension.  Many of them were still alive during the days of the apostle Paul.   The enemies of the apostles could not produce one  reason why their claim of having seen Jesus alive from the dead could not be believed.   They could not produce a body, even though everyone knew where the grave was.  They could not sustain the story that the body was stolen. 

 

In addition, no one dies for a lie, especially if they are the one who perpetrates the lie.  No one would willingly suffer torture, imprisonment and a violent agonizing death for something they know for a fact isn't true, if simply recanting the story would alleviate the suffering.

 

 

That is the story, yet there are no first-hand accounts of this - only copies of copies of second hand accounts.

 

All of the Gospels were written within the lifetimes of the apostles.  Mark and Luke are not first hand witnesses, but there is strong evidence that Mark transcribed Peter's account of Jesus' life and Luke tells us that His account is based on interviews with firsthand witnesses.  Both Matthew and John contain internal information that leads us to believe that there is no reason to doubt that they are in fact the authors of those two Gospels.  All of these Gospels were written early probably around 40-50 AD.

 

 

  

There are lots of old stories which reference real places and people, this doesn't make them "obviously credible" does it?

 

The Bible isn't a book of historical fiction and it has been found to be historically accurate.   What makes the Bible's claims credible is that they are rooted in historical and geographic fact.  All of the converging lines of evidence are in a setting in of real places, people and events that can be historically verified.

[LatentAuthor]

1st. No but God was aware

 

How would Jews not know of these alleged prophecies if they were written in the OT?

 

2nd Yes

 

So we are agreed that simply having a story which contains references to historical places and/or persons does not make a story credible.

 

3rd Good point but they don't have proper evidence and my faith is too strong to ever turn away,

 

There are people living today that claim to have performed miracles, and who have followers that will testify to having witnessed this firsthand.  If you discount this as insufficient evidence, then how can you not do the same with ancient, anonymously written, second hand accounts that lack any outside corroboration?

 

4th No... Theory is a "blind" mans bible

 

Does my scenario not fit the pieces of evidence that you presented?  Is my scenario less likely?

 

5th These copies are all the same, hasn't changed from the start. and over 500 people saw Jesus after His resurrection

 

That's actually not true, the copies vary significantly depending upon the age.  For example, the ending of Mark and the story of the woman taken in adultery are two stories that were added to later copies for purely theological reasons - this is so well known that if you check the footnotes in your bible it will likely note this.

 

6th Bible/History/evidence

 

References please.

 

7th Not that i know of...and you?

 

Certainly, there are numerous books and papers on archaeology that contradict the Bible's accounts of creation, the flood, and the Exodus - which, consequently, doesn't appear in the ancient Egyptian records at all.

[Guest HisG]

Archeological evidences support a large scale flood.

Many cultures have ancient stories handed down orally of a large flood.

How do you explain layers of seashells, fossils of sea creatures etc in Europe that are normally found in warmer waters? And we are talking way up high eg: European alps.

As for the Ancient Egyptians and the absence of the Exodus account (?), common practice of not writing about utter defeats - Egyptian army totalled under the waters. There are fossilised chariot wheels etc evident to this day.

[EndSeeker]

 

1st. No but God was aware

 

How would Jews not know of these alleged prophecies if they were written in the OT?

 

 

2nd Yes

 

So we are agreed that simply having a story which contains references to historical places and/or persons does not make a story credible.

 

 

3rd Good point but they don't have proper evidence and my faith is too strong to ever turn away,

 

There are people living today that claim to have performed miracles, and who have followers that will testify to having witnessed this firsthand.  If you discount this as insufficient evidence, then how can you not do the same with ancient, anonymously written, second hand accounts that lack any outside corroboration?

 

 

4th No... Theory is a "blind" mans bible

 

Does my scenario not fit the pieces of evidence that you presented?  Is my scenario less likely?

 

 

5th These copies are all the same, hasn't changed from the start. and over 500 people saw Jesus after His resurrection

 

That's actually not true, the copies vary significantly depending upon the age.  For example, the ending of Mark and the story of the woman taken in adultery are two stories that were added to later copies for purely theological reasons - this is so well known that if you check the footnotes in your bible it will likely note this.

 

 

6th Bible/History/evidence

 

References please.

 

 

7th Not that i know of...and you?

 

Certainly, there are numerous books and papers on archaeology that contradict the Bible's accounts of creation, the flood, and the Exodus - which, consequently, doesn't appear in the ancient Egyptian records at all.

 

1. First you asked if the apostles were aware of the prophecies, now you asked how would Jews not know of them..

- you're referring to the apostles right? I think all but one or two were Jewish, if i remember right..

- other than that i don't understand what you're asking...sorry.

2. I answered "yes" to the Bible IS obviously credible

3. The Bible warned of false prophets:

Matthew 7:15

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing,

but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 24:3-5

"...the disciples came unto him privately,

saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of

thy coming, and of the end of the world?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many."

4. very less likely, to answer your question honestly

5. Okay cool, i applaud you for that knowledge you have, but still in Mark wasn't the only place the resurrection was written about

- and it's likely the longer ending to Mark was lost, or intended to end that way. Plus it ends with the assurance that Jesus in fact was

- risen.

6. well, The Bible IS history and evidence, sorry you don't see it that way...

- other than that i know its out there somewhere but i couldn't find it lol for the record i only spent about 20 minutes on the net -looking for it, but every apostle died for their belief in Jesus and His resurrection, and wouldn't die for a lie, i wouldn't. I know Jesus to -be truth and i'd die for Him. plus I have the Word of God, so thats proof to me.

7. hmm idk about that.. oh and i forgot to mention something before..search "Enuma Elish" it contains the Mesopotamian account of -creation and the flood, which was composed in Abrahams era (around 1800 BC) the details of this tablet is similar to Genesis.

- i know more about this but also search "Gilgamesh Epic" which dates to the 17century BC. and is the Babylonian record of the world -wide flood and its likely borrowed from the "Atrahasis Epic" (1800BC) and yeah there is chariot wheel fossils, in a book called

-"The Exodus Case". I hope that helps

[LatentAuthor]

Archeological evidences support a large scale flood.

Many cultures have ancient stories handed down orally of a large flood.

How do you explain layers of seashells, fossils of sea creatures etc in Europe that are normally found in warmer waters? And we are talking way up high eg: European alps.

As for the Ancient Egyptians and the absence of the Exodus account (?), common practice of not writing about utter defeats - Egyptian army totalled under the waters. There are fossilised chariot wheels etc evident to this day.

 

I'm afraid you are completely wrong about archaeological evidence supporting a global flood as reported in the bible - but you are welcome to substantiate this claim.  Many cultures have stories about floods, consequently floods happen a lot.  This isn't evidence of anything other than that rivers sometimes flood. . .which isn't exactly news.

 

We find marine layers of strata in mountains because those mountains were once part of an ancient ocean - that's why there's a fossilized layer showing everything you'd expect to see from a calm ocean floor existing for eons rather than a jumble of sediment that you'd expect to see from a big flood.  That's just basic geology.

 

The fact of the matter is that archaeologists haven't found any compelling evidence that the Israelites were ever in Egypt, or that they wandered around Sinai - even those archaeologists from Israel who have every conceivable political and religious motivation to do so.  Also, I'm afraid that the claim about chariot wheels being found in the Red Sea is a very old hoax.

[Guest DRS81]

Fairy tale - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fairy+tale?s=t
2. an incredible or misleading statement, account, or belief: His story of being a millionaire is just a fairy tale.
 

Faith - Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

 

Faith - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
 

Through faith in Jesus Christ we learn the Father of creation is the creator and origin of science. Our faith even though cannot be seen with human eyes is alive in us. The power of God makes it so. Our testimony and fruits confirm our faith. God the Father created science to give us a way to grow more in relationship with him. We sit back in awe of his creation as we build our telescopes and find our cures for our diseases. (Psalms 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!) (Psalms 119-161 Princes persecute me without cause, but my heart stands in awe of your words.) Blessings.

[Guest HisG]

="LatentAuthor"

Also, I'm afraid that the claim about chariot wheels being found in the Red Sea is a very old hoax.

HIsG

Can you please provide a reliable link to support that?

[Guest shiloh357]

I'm afraid you are completely wrong about archaeological evidence supporting a global flood as reported in the bible - but you are welcome to substantiate this claim.

 

There is a lot of evidence geologically in terms of stratas made up of sediment that appears to be have been laid down rapidly and this is found worldwide not just in localized areas.  Animal and plant fossils show evidence of having been trapped in the abrubt deposit of sediment.

 

The fact that marine life is found having been found on mountain tops clearly shows that the mountains were at one time covered with water which is consistent with the global flood mentioned in the Bible. 

 

The explosion of Mt. St. Helens proves how rapdidly plants and animals can be fossilized.  Trees that were swept down the flow of the side of Mt. St. Helens were found to have petrified in about three months. 

[other one]

 

 

 

 

The explosion of Mt. St. Helens proves how rapdidly plants and animals can be fossilized.  Trees that were swept down the flow of the side of Mt. St. Helens were found to have petrified in about three months. 

 

Shiloh, do you know of a good place to document this.....   I've got some friends that seem a bit too skeptical to go for the places I've seen. 

[LatentAuthor]

="LatentAuthor"

Also, I'm afraid that the claim about chariot wheels being found in the Red Sea is a very old hoax.

HIsG

Can you please provide a reliable link to support that?

 

The story has been around for a while, it's never been substantiated and always seems to originate from people known for hoaxes.  I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if someone wants to try to substantiate this claim.  The last time I heard it was from Ron Wyatt, who doesn't appear to understand much about coral, not to mention honesty.