GoldenEagle Posted January 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Joshua is standing before the angel of the Lord. The term, "angel of the LORD" used in the O T is often seen as Christ. In this text without a doubt, it is the Lord that rebukes Satan. The Bible never refers to the Lord as the archangel Michael. Michael is never called "the angel of the LORD." Well it is a term used for Jesus in the OT as you stated but that same term has the word angel and yet it's not a problem to most Christians. That's the point I am trying to get across that just because it says angel, it doesn't mean Christ is/was a created being. It is a term/title just like Christ is likened to a Rock, Bread, Door, etc. The bible never refers to Michael as the angel of the Lord but I belief God leaves things for us to search out...hidden manna. We don't see the term trinity in the bible but we believe it because there is evidence from searching the scriptures that the Godhead encompasses a trinity. Thanks for your response. Hey Remnatrob... When you say hidden manna... You mean what exactly? Another question out of curiosity... Orthodox Chritian theology would not agree that Jesus Christ is Michael. Why would that revelation or "hidden manna" only be given to 7DA (7th Day Adventist)? God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 23, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Joshua is standing before the angel of the Lord. The term, "angel of the LORD" used in the O T is often seen as Christ. In this text without a doubt, it is the Lord that rebukes Satan. The Bible never refers to the Lord as the archangel Michael. Michael is never called "the angel of the LORD." Well it is a term used for Jesus in the OT as you stated but that same term has the word angel and yet it's not a problem to most Christians. That's the point I am trying to get across that just because it says angel, it doesn't mean Christ is/was a created being. It is a term/title just like Christ is likened to a Rock, Bread, Door, etc. The bible never refers to Michael as the angel of the Lord but I belief God leaves things for us to search out...hidden manna. We don't see the term trinity in the bible but we believe it because there is evidence from searching the scriptures that the Godhead encompasses a trinity. Thanks for your response. Hey Remnatrob... When you say hidden manna... You mean what exactly? Another question out of curiosity... Orthodox Chritian theology would not agree that Jesus Christ is Michael. Why would that revelation or "hidden manna" only be given to 7DA (7th Day Adventist)? God bless, GE Hi GE, Long time no see. I used that term that I got from Revelation 2:17. It's just an allusion to the fact that God has things in the bible that are "hidden" in a sense because many times as christians we just do a surface reading of the bible. But God has so much more for us if we look deeper. I think about Matthew 13:44-46 where it says: Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field. 45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: 46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it. The bible doesn't need any gimicks to create interest...We just have to learn how to look for those hidden treasures in the word of God. As to your question about my church receiving this hidden manna about Michael, I don't know. But the JW's kinda got it so it's not something we can totally claim. In fact the average SDA may or may not know this because either they only do a surface reading of the bible or aren't really into reading EGW books. Yes I read those books but I learned this before I really ever read one of those books. The purpose of this thread was to give ideas on how to refute cults and I just said that my church needs to be added to the list because we(knowingly or not) believe that Michael is Jesus. That's all. That and the whole remnant church thing so that was my reasoning for responding the first time. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 23, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,268 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 28,001 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 23, 2014 May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said: What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ... Ok. Most Christians agree that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ. He appears in the burning bush to Moses, He appears to Sampson’s parents, He appears to Joshua as the captain of the host of the Lord in Josh. 5. This angel even accepts worship from Joshua. How about back in Exodus 23? 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. God said the his name is in this particular angel that he was sending to the Israelites. And he has the authority to pardon transgressions. Who else but God can do these things. How about the name Michael? It’s origin is Hebrew and what does the name mean? I’ll let you look it up. Also in Jude Michael is raising the body of Moses from the dead. 1Thess. 4:16 says the voice of this archangel has resurrecting power. You are Christians and know the only voice that has power over the dead to raise them in the gospels so I don’t need to post those texts. Who else could it be but Christ? I don’t know why Christ would be described this way but that’s one of the questions I plan on asking when he comes back. That’s a quick summary of why I know Michael is Christ Jesus, but not necessarily a created being because it says angel. I don't know what Bible you are using, but none that I have leads me to agree with you.... Just because Michael is making issue about the body of Moses is no reason to say that he resurrected him.. Thess. says that the Lord himself will descend with the voice of an arc angel and the trump of God...... that's not saying that he is an archangel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 24, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.21 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 24, 2014 May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said: What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ... Ok. Most Christians agree that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ. He appears in the burning bush to Moses, He appears to Sampson’s parents, He appears to Joshua as the captain of the host of the Lord in Josh. 5. This angel even accepts worship from Joshua. How about back in Exodus 23?20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.God said the his name is in this particular angel that he was sending to the Israelites. And he has the authority to pardon transgressions. Who else but God can do these things.How about the name Michael? It’s origin is Hebrew and what does the name mean? I’ll let you look it up. Also in Jude Michael is raising the body of Moses from the dead. 1Thess. 4:16 says the voice of this archangel has resurrecting power. You are Christians and know the only voice that has power over the dead to raise them in the gospels so I don’t need to post those texts. Who else could it be but Christ? I don’t know why Christ would be described this way but that’s one of the questions I plan on asking when he comes back. That’s a quick summary of why I know Michael is Christ Jesus, but not necessarily a created being because it says angel.May I ask that you reply to the whole post and not pick and choose what to answer. I appreciate an honest and full conversation. Once you have replied to the rest, I will reply to yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 24, 2014 May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said: What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ... Ok. Most Christians agree that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ. He appears in the burning bush to Moses, He appears to Sampson’s parents, He appears to Joshua as the captain of the host of the Lord in Josh. 5. This angel even accepts worship from Joshua. How about back in Exodus 23?20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.God said the his name is in this particular angel that he was sending to the Israelites. And he has the authority to pardon transgressions. Who else but God can do these things.How about the name Michael? It’s origin is Hebrew and what does the name mean? I’ll let you look it up. Also in Jude Michael is raising the body of Moses from the dead. 1Thess. 4:16 says the voice of this archangel has resurrecting power. You are Christians and know the only voice that has power over the dead to raise them in the gospels so I don’t need to post those texts. Who else could it be but Christ? I don’t know why Christ would be described this way but that’s one of the questions I plan on asking when he comes back. That’s a quick summary of why I know Michael is Christ Jesus, but not necessarily a created being because it says angel. May I ask that you reply to the whole post and not pick and choose what to answer. I appreciate an honest and full conversation. Once you have replied to the rest, I will reply to yours. I’m sorry for not answering your question completely. I’m usually answering during downtime at work so I didn’t interpret the question the way it was being asked. I wasn’t trying to be evasive or avoid answering your question adequately. I will try to be more diligent about answering your questions. As you know, Michael the Archangel is mentioned in scripture by name only 5 times. Three times in the book of Daniel, Once in Jude 9 and once in Revelation 12. What I find interesting is that he is the only mentioned “archangel” in the bible. He is never referred to as AN archangel. As I mentioned before, 1 Thess. 4:16 says that the Lord is coming back to claim the dead in Christ and one of instruments used to wake the dead is the voice of THE archangel. Since the only archangel mentioned in the bible is Michael it is his voice that will be used in raising the dead. If you go to the book of John Chapter 5 verses 23-25, 28, 29 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Again the voice of the archangel and Jesus are both said to have power to resurrect the dead. I mentioned in the previous response about Michael disputing over the body of Moses with Satan. The response was why would Jesus say the Lord rebuke you to Satan. Jesus is Lord and wouldn’t need to say that. I showed another instance in the bible where the LORD said the LORD rebuke you. You have all of the pre-incarnate angel of the Lord stories that point to this “angel” as Christ. What I don’t get is why is it ok for you to recognize this “angel” as Christ but it doesn’t really mean he is an angel but when I say the Archangel is Christ you automatically assume he is a created being? I also brought up the Angel who was the captain of the Lord’s host in Joshua 5. He accepted worship from Joshua. Is there not a coincidence between that guy and Michael the Archangel in Rev.12 who is fight against the dragon and his angels? My understanding of archangel is Chief angel. Also in Daniel, Michael is the prince who helps the guy who was withstood by the king of Persia for 21 days. Michael standing up in Daniel 12:1 is a future prophetic text that is a pretty interesting study. Also angel means messenger and Christ was a messenger and Daniel 3:28 has King Nebuchadnezzar calling Christ an angel. I think I covered all the bases for that first question. Now to your second question that is exactly what I am saying. Christ is no more an angel than you or I but in the sense of a created heavenly messenger. As I said before, no one has a problem with Christ being called a Lamb, Rock, bread, door because they know it’s not literal. But angel for some reason continues to be taken to the extreme and therefore there is no way on God’s green earth that he clothed himself as Michael for a purpose just as much as he did when he was in the OT as the angel of the Lord. I don’t know how much more I can explain because my vocabulary is limited. I would like to say that unlike the JW, I believe Christ is God. His being God doesn’t prevent him from being able to take on this form of Michael. JW’s use this idea to say that Christ was created but I see more scripture that points to him as the creator. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 24, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 24, 2014 May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said: What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ... Ok. Most Christians agree that the angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Christ. He appears in the burning bush to Moses, He appears to Sampson’s parents, He appears to Joshua as the captain of the host of the Lord in Josh. 5. This angel even accepts worship from Joshua. How about back in Exodus 23? 20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. 22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. God said the his name is in this particular angel that he was sending to the Israelites. And he has the authority to pardon transgressions. Who else but God can do these things. How about the name Michael? It’s origin is Hebrew and what does the name mean? I’ll let you look it up. Also in Jude Michael is raising the body of Moses from the dead. 1Thess. 4:16 says the voice of this archangel has resurrecting power. You are Christians and know the only voice that has power over the dead to raise them in the gospels so I don’t need to post those texts. Who else could it be but Christ? I don’t know why Christ would be described this way but that’s one of the questions I plan on asking when he comes back. That’s a quick summary of why I know Michael is Christ Jesus, but not necessarily a created being because it says angel. I don't know what Bible you are using, but none that I have leads me to agree with you.... Just because Michael is making issue about the body of Moses is no reason to say that he resurrected him.. Thess. says that the Lord himself will descend with the voice of an arc angel and the trump of God...... that's not saying that he is an archangel. I read the KJV since you're interested and the issue over the body is only undestood if you understand the state of the dead in the way that I do. I believe the dead die and their thoughts perish and they wait for judgement at a later date when Christ returns. You believe when you die you are judged immediately and go to heaven or hell. Because of my believe, I see that scripture differently because Michael/Jesus wants his friend to be with him in heaven but Satan doesn't want to release it. It's why I can see that Moses and Elijah were able to minister to Jesus that night before he died because otherwise how did Moses come from heaven? Anyways, hope that helps. Oh and 1Thess. says the voice of THE archangel not an archangel in my version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted January 25, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.80 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted January 25, 2014 This thread is closed for review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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