GlidingWings Posted December 12, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 169 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 345 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2013 Hi Montana. Those are some pretty sharp words against Post Trib believers. I will most likely guarantee with words like that soon the moderators will lock up this thread. You really think us Post Trib believers worship idols and follow after demons? If I made charges against Pre Trib it only has to do with being ready. If I want to ready other Christians and people about the 7 year tribulation it is because I care. If I believed the world is going to encounter the End times do I really want others to not know of any of the coming events? You believe you will be in Heaven? That’s nice for you. And how is this saving anyone outside of your own Faith in God? Should you call your brothers in the Lord worshippers of idols and those who follow after Demons or being neither hot nor cold? . Because of the words you say of us God is watching these things. I believe Pre Trib is a teaching of distraction. I don’t think it is a teaching where one has lost Salvation. A teaching only to make one not to be ready for the Great Trib. Many of us don’t believe there is any convincing part of the Bible that says the Rapture occurs before the 7 year trib. We are looking for a verse that God says and I will take the Church or God’s people for Seven years out of this World. In seven years I will bring them back with me. In first Thessalonians chapter 4: 16-17 They meet Jesus in the air. It says they will so ever be with Him. One may assume Jesus brings them upwards. One can even assume Jesus brought them down. But actually these verses don’t say whether which way Jesus brought these caught up saints. You may say up. Others may say down. But these particular verses say neither up nor down. From Matthew 24 to 1 Thessalonians and to 2 Thessalonians to Jude and to Revelation I’ve never seen these saints higher than the clouds. Meeting in the clouds is a gathering of all saints and the Elect chosen of God even them who are dead sleeping in Christ and those who are alive in Him. If the dead rise with Christ and the living are caught up with the dead in Christ why should dead people fear to run away from the 7 year tribulation? If the Rapture occurs before the great Trib then please explain chapter 20. Chapter 20 shows the saints that were killed for Christ ruled with Christ for 1000 years. We see it is only the Saints that died during the trib and even lived during the trib because it’s the Saints that rule in the 1000 years. So if Pre trib believers believe they will not be here how did the Pre trib win the position of ruling with Christ for the 1000 years? Which of the Pre trib believers were killed for Christ or came out of the great trib to rule with Christ? I will give this baseball analogy once again. The only way to get home is to run around all 4 bases. It’s only fair. If people are raptured before the 7 years that means one can go from first base to third. Or from second base straight to home base. That’s not fair baseball. And God does not play unfair. He is a fair and just God. If God is sending any Angels to help to witness God’s Word remember what kind of times that will be. Christians will be persecuted. Many may be end up hiding in places. For some it may be difficult to reach out to others to bring the gospel under the great danger in those days. God will send divine help to make sure the Gospel of Jesus will be proclaimed to all people. Remember God sent Jesus the Son of God who is above all men to preach us the Gospel by the message of the Holy Spirit. God is always able to send help from above. If there is another 1000 years after these 7 years then why can’t the Jews also know Christ? I don’t believe the End of the trib is the end of all humanity. I believe it happens after the 1000 years. So perhaps it is possible to fulfill the 70th week of Daniel as the trib being the last 7 years. Jesus will destroy armies at the end of the trib. The Jews hide in the wilderness. I think there is room the rapture can occur at the end of the trib Jesus comes down with the Trib saints and the Jews also can know Jesus as Messiah. Then there will be 1000 more years until the very end. Why does God want another thousand years beyond the great trib? Maybe God will want Jews to also have 1000 years to make a choice to accept Jesus also I’m not sure. But I think the 70 weeks can still work in with Post trib thinking the only difference the timing of the rapture. God won’t need to gather the Jews because when they see Jesus they will walk up to him. Everyone will proclaim him as Lord and King. Where does that leave the Gentiles? I’m pretty sure Jesus will accept us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 12, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2013 GW Scripture say that those beheaded will rule with Christ for 1000 years. Scripture also says that the Bride of Christ/Church will rule with Christ, 99% were not beheaded. I believe that post trib teaching is a distraction and goes against Scripture that I post above in # 79. Scripture says that tribulation saints go into captivity or are killed by the sword. They cannot by or sell, they own nothing. If one is a good slave, maybe those who own them (one who has the mark of the beast) will treat them well. You will probably never see your family members again. Captivity is relocation. If you are old or sickly, you will most likely be killed for they will have no value. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Scripture say.. What are your thoughts on post 78. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 12, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 12, 2013 Scripture say.. What are your thoughts on post 78. D I see no need for Jubilee timing. 70 Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to: complete the six tasks. or 490 prophetic years. Which aspect of Jubilee are you using, every 7 years a slave is to be set free, or after 49 years heirs are to reclaim their property. For this kept land property staying within the Tribe it was given. I don't see this in the 70 Sevens. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 I see no need for Jubilee timing. 70 Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to: complete the six tasks. or 490 prophetic years. Which aspect of Jubilee are you using, every 7 years a slave is to be set free, or after 49 years heirs are to reclaim their property. For this kept land property staying within the Tribe it was given. I don't see this in the 70 Sevens. In Christ Montana Marv You see no need? Montana Marv, 490 years and 49 years IS Jubilee timing Jubilee timing is a fact of scripture when speaking of these seventy weeks. 490 years vs. 7 years tribulation period. Which one is it..490 years or 7 years?? If the 70 weeks is speaking about the 7 year trib, then why the 490 years? I don't see the reasoning behind your logic. Jubilee Timing 1 week = 7 year periods 7 weeks = 49 year periods 62 weeks = 434 year periods 69 (7+62) weeks = 483 year periods 70 weeks = 490 year periods of time Our Timing/7 Year Great Tribulation - Daniel 12:11 - 1,290 days/Rev 12:6 - 1,260 days/Rev 13:5 - 42 months 7 year tribulation / 3.5 years split 1,260 days / 3.5 years = 360 days in a biblical year 42 months = 12 months in a year/24 months in 2 years/36 months in 3 years/42 Months is 3.5 years Do you see now why the 70 weeks and the six tasks are already completed by the sacrifice of sins BECAUSE of the death of Jesus on the cross? The 70 weeks is not talking about the 7 year great tribulation. The math is completely the opposite. It's apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 13, 2013 D Why is Israel still in unbelief. They were given 70 Sevens to believe, they have not as yet. This 70 Seven decree is for Israel, no one else. Can you not see this. The 69th week ended at the death of Jesus. Then seven more years. Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing the in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken through the prophet Daniel (middle of the last seven). v. 21 - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would survive., but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. This has not occurred. So the 70 week is yet future. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 D Why is Israel still in unbelief. They were given 70 Sevens to believe, they have not as yet. This 70 Seven decree is for Israel, no one else. Can you not see this. The 69th week ended at the death of Jesus. Then seven more years. Matt 24:15 - So when you see standing the in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation, spoken through the prophet Daniel (middle of the last seven). v. 21 - For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been shortened, no one would survive., but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened. This has not occurred. So the 70 week is yet future. In Christ Montana Marv We are getting into Preterism and Futurism beliefs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_of_desolation ....I guess it's best to stop here because this debate could go on forever. The reason Israel is still in unbelief is because of unrepentance. Unrepentance and the death of Jesus are two different topics and two different timelines. The death of Jesus was in a certain time frame, but unrepentance is a reality for the condition of humanity that will continue until the second coming of Christ. I believe in the Preterism belief in the last seven years, mainly because of Jubilee timing and our timing used in scripture. You still haven't given me a reason behind 1,290 days vs 490 years etc...describing the same event??? Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator." And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/daniel-9-27.html Sixty nine of the seventy weeks being accounted for, and the several events observed to be fulfilled in them; the angel proceeds to take notice of the remaining "one" week, or seven years, and what should be done within that space of time: a covenant should be confirmed with many; which is not to be understood of the Messiah's confirming the covenant of grace with many, or on account of all his people, by fulfilling the conditions of it, and by his blood and sacrifice, through which all the blessings of it come to them; for this is not for one week only, but for ever; but this is to be interpreted of the Roman people, spoken of in the latter part of the preceding verse; who, in order to accomplish their design to destroy the city and temple of Jerusalem, made peace with many nations, entered into covenant and alliance with them, particularly the Medes, Parthians, and Armenians, for the space of one week, or seven years; as it appears they did at the beginning of this week Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProphecyKid Posted December 13, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 85 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/06/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1988 Share Posted December 13, 2013 The text 70 weeks is cut of or determined for Israel to do a list of things. What gives us the impression that they would actually do those things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted December 13, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,136 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted December 13, 2013 The text 70 weeks is cut of or determined for Israel to do a list of things. What gives us the impression that they would actually do those things? PK It was decreed for them to do so. An edict from Gabriel via God. If they were not going to do it, why have it in Scripture saying that they will do it. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I see no need for Jubilee timing. 70 Sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to: complete the six tasks. The six tasks in Daniel 9:24 "Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, (1) to finish the transgression, (2) to put an end to sin, (3) and to atone for iniquity, (4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, (5) to seal both vision and prophet, (6) and to anoint a most holy place. 1. to finish the transgression 2. to put an end to sin 3. and to atone for iniquity 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness 5. to seal both vision and prophet 6. and to anoint a most holy place Answer me three questions here.. 1. How many of these tasks have already been completed? 2. Is there scripture that confirms any of these tasks in the great tribulation? 3. Why is there such a huge gap after the 69 weeks, 20 centuries later? It starts to make sense that the 70 weeks is split into two gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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