Under the Law

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

 

 

1.  The Galatians had been decieved by the Judaizers that they had to convert to the Jewish religion, hence all of the stuff about circumcision, in order to be saved.  They were trying to live as Jews within the framework of the Jewish religion of the day.  

 

2.  Abraham was, by virtue of His faith, under grace.  OT saints were never "under the law."   They were saints who had put their faith in the Messiah to come.   They lived within the framework of the dispensation of law, but they did not find redemption through the law.  Salvation in the OT was by grace through faith just like it is in the NT.

 

Shiloh, what laws were in effect during the life of Abraham....   I really should know that but I just realized that I really don't.

 

Well, by the time of Abraham, he knew how to perform a proper sacrifice and that means that he knew the difference between clean and unclean animals.   That knowledge goes back all the way to Cain and Abel.  Abraham had received the sign of circumcision that was part of the law, later.  Other than that, I am not sure.

 

 

The men of Sodom were wicked and sinning, but I never stopped to ask why.               Could it be that the result of eating of the knowledge of good and evil just put it into our make up and we either did or should have known better?   As I remember Cain seemed to know that he was doing wrong.

 

Sin didn't come from the forbidden fruit.  It came from Adam's disobedience.   But you raise an interesting point in that there had to be some kind of divine law code in operation in order to distinguish good from evil.  There was a standard that had been violated thus resulting in God's judgment against Sodom and Gommorah.  Even in Abraham's day, there was a knowledge of God.   Paul makes the point in Romans 1 is that even though the wicked knew God they willifully disobeyed Him.   We tend to think that pagans didn't know about God and thus shouldn't be punished for their ignorance, but the Bible tells us that there was a knowledge of God in the earth and that God was fully just in judging man against the light that was available to man at that time.

[other one]

i've been playing around with all the birth and deaths in Genesis and I was shocked to learn that Abraham was 48 years old when Noah died and Shem outlived Abraham by about 35 years.    I am starting to look for any information that might show some interfacing between them that I wasn't aware of.

[Fez]

Really nice thread! Informative and thought provoking!

[Qnts2]

It seems to be a trend from some modern teachers to claim that returning to the law, as mentioned by Paul in Galatians, means a believer is attempting to become self-righteous by not sinning.  

 

 

Gal 2:16  know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

It’s my understanding the works of the law Paul is speaking about here are ceremonial things like feasts, holy days, circumcision etc.

Modern prosperity and WOF teachers suggest a Christian’s  circumspection about sin is placing them under the law.  They teach self-examination is self-righteousness.

 

It’s my understanding the only way to be under the law is to be an unbeliever. 

 

 

Gal 5:17-18  For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.  (18)  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

 

What does being under the law mean and what is the law as mentioned by Paul in Galatians?

 

It is my belief that a believer is not under the law, in that they are not obligated to any covenant which requires keeping laws in order to achieve right standing before God and eternal life. However, a believer can think that to have right standing with God requires certain actions or behaviors. They have placed themselves under their own law. Their own law is not a covenant with God, but is their own belief.  As believers, we are to be led by the Spirit, and not under the law.

 

In scripture, under the law usually refers to the laws in the Mosaic covenant. Just a note, the Mosaic covenant with the hundreds of commands, is one covenant. Remove a single law or break a single law from that covenant is called a violation of the covenant. That is because it is one covenant with hundreds of commands/obligations to fulfill the covenant. The OT does not divide the Mosaic law into categories. As a matter of fact, many of the laws cross the manmade divisions or categories some try to place the laws into.     

[Guest ninhao]

 

It is my belief that a believer is not under the law, in that they are not obligated to any covenant which requires keeping laws in order to achieve right standing before God and eternal life. However, a believer can think that to have right standing with God requires certain actions or behaviors. They have placed themselves under their own law. Their own law is not a covenant with God, but is their own belief.  As believers, we are to be led by the Spirit, and not under the law.

 

In scripture, under the law usually refers to the laws in the Mosaic covenant. Just a note, the Mosaic covenant with the hundreds of commands, is one covenant. Remove a single law or break a single law from that covenant is called a violation of the covenant. That is because it is one covenant with hundreds of commands/obligations to fulfill the covenant. The OT does not divide the Mosaic law into categories. As a matter of fact, many of the laws cross the manmade divisions or categories some try to place the laws into.     

 

 

Thank you Qnts2 for this assessment. Are these man made divisions you mention regarding moral/ceremonial/civic theocracy and In Galatians when Paul mentions turning to the law is it fair to say it was ceremonial laws in question ? 

[Qnts2]

 

 

It is my belief that a believer is not under the law, in that they are not obligated to any covenant which requires keeping laws in order to achieve right standing before God and eternal life. However, a believer can think that to have right standing with God requires certain actions or behaviors. They have placed themselves under their own law. Their own law is not a covenant with God, but is their own belief.  As believers, we are to be led by the Spirit, and not under the law.

 

In scripture, under the law usually refers to the laws in the Mosaic covenant. Just a note, the Mosaic covenant with the hundreds of commands, is one covenant. Remove a single law or break a single law from that covenant is called a violation of the covenant. That is because it is one covenant with hundreds of commands/obligations to fulfill the covenant. The OT does not divide the Mosaic law into categories. As a matter of fact, many of the laws cross the manmade divisions or categories some try to place the laws into.     

 

 

Thank you Qnts2 for this assessment. Are these man made divisions you mention regarding moral/ceremonial/civic theocracy and In Galatians when Paul mentions turning to the law is it fair to say it was ceremonial laws in question ? 

 

 

OT scripture does not have categories to classify the laws, like moral, ceremonial, or civic.  From a law perspective, the questions would be, does that law apply to me. God gave the laws/commands to the Jewish people. Some of the laws were for men only, some for women only, and some for all of Israel. Some applied to non-Jewish people who were visiting Israel, living in Israel, or just travelling thru. Some of the laws applied only to Priests.

 

So, Galatians is no talking about ceremonial laws. There is no such category given in scripture. For the Galatians, there were 'Judaizers' or Jewish people who were telling the Galatians that to fully follow God, they had to become Jewish. As a part of the conversion process, a male Gentile must be ritually, physically circumcised to become Jewish. Of course becoming Jewish also obligates a person to the Mosaic law/covenant, given by God to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai. So a Gentile who was only obligated to a small subset of the Mosaic law if they lived in the land of Israel, becomes Jewish, and is now obligated to all of the Mosaic law, with only a few exceptions for those laws given to men, women or Priests only. Paul is questioning the Galatians foolish thoughts, as the Galatians were fully accept by God thru faith in Jesus. Why were they agreeing to become Jewish, and obligated to the Mosaic law/covenant? The Mosaic covenant did not contain the same wonderful blessings as the New Covenant and the better New Covenant blessing are not received by keeping the Mosaic law, but rather by faith in Jesus.

[deut31:12]

Shiloh was correct in the point that Galatians kept trying to go back to the old law.

Galatians 3:10-13

King James Version (KJV)

¹⁰ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

¹¹ But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

¹² And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

¹³ Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

This is speaking of the old law, but remember we are still under a law, just not the old law.  We are under the law of Christ.  We are still commanded to keep from sin and to do good.  All Christians were once sinners and without a law there is no sin.

 

Romans 7:6-8

⁶ But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

⁷ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

⁸ But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

Romans 6:15

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

What you have to do is be able to tell the difference between when the scriptures are speaking of the old testament laws and when it is speaking of the laws of Christ.  The OT laws won't justify us before God, but we are still commanded to follow the commandments (laws) of Christ in the NT.

 

1 John 3:3-5

³ And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

⁴ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

⁵ And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

 

[Guest ninhao]

 

 

OT scripture does not have categories to classify the laws, like moral, ceremonial, or civic.  From a law perspective, the questions would be, does that law apply to me. God gave the laws/commands to the Jewish people. Some of the laws were for men only, some for women only, and some for all of Israel. Some applied to non-Jewish people who were visiting Israel, living in Israel, or just travelling thru. Some of the laws applied only to Priests.

 

So, Galatians is no talking about ceremonial laws. There is no such category given in scripture. For the Galatians, there were 'Judaizers' or Jewish people who were telling the Galatians that to fully follow God, they had to become Jewish. As a part of the conversion process, a male Gentile must be ritually, physically circumcised to become Jewish. Of course becoming Jewish also obligates a person to the Mosaic law/covenant, given by God to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai. So a Gentile who was only obligated to a small subset of the Mosaic law if they lived in the land of Israel, becomes Jewish, and is now obligated to all of the Mosaic law, with only a few exceptions for those laws given to men, women or Priests only. Paul is questioning the Galatians foolish thoughts, as the Galatians were fully accept by God thru faith in Jesus. Why were they agreeing to become Jewish, and obligated to the Mosaic law/covenant? The Mosaic covenant did not contain the same wonderful blessings as the New Covenant and the better New Covenant blessing are not received by keeping the Mosaic law, but rather by faith in Jesus.

 

 

This is interesting Qnts. As a comparison what do you say Jesus abolished in Ephesians. That is; what is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" ?

 

Eph 2:13-17  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  (15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;  (16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

, 

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

OT scripture does not have categories to classify the laws, like moral, ceremonial, or civic.  From a law perspective, the questions would be, does that law apply to me. God gave the laws/commands to the Jewish people. Some of the laws were for men only, some for women only, and some for all of Israel. Some applied to non-Jewish people who were visiting Israel, living in Israel, or just travelling thru. Some of the laws applied only to Priests.

 

So, Galatians is no talking about ceremonial laws. There is no such category given in scripture. For the Galatians, there were 'Judaizers' or Jewish people who were telling the Galatians that to fully follow God, they had to become Jewish. As a part of the conversion process, a male Gentile must be ritually, physically circumcised to become Jewish. Of course becoming Jewish also obligates a person to the Mosaic law/covenant, given by God to the Jewish people at Mt. Sinai. So a Gentile who was only obligated to a small subset of the Mosaic law if they lived in the land of Israel, becomes Jewish, and is now obligated to all of the Mosaic law, with only a few exceptions for those laws given to men, women or Priests only. Paul is questioning the Galatians foolish thoughts, as the Galatians were fully accept by God thru faith in Jesus. Why were they agreeing to become Jewish, and obligated to the Mosaic law/covenant? The Mosaic covenant did not contain the same wonderful blessings as the New Covenant and the better New Covenant blessing are not received by keeping the Mosaic law, but rather by faith in Jesus.

 

 

This is interesting Qnts. As a comparison what do you say Jesus abolished in Ephesians. That is; what is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" ?

 

Eph 2:13-17  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  (15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;  (16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

, 

 

 

The Ephesians verses are talking to Gentiles about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. What is abolished is the enmity, and the enmity is the law of ordinances. This is the enmity between the Jews and Gentiles so God needs to deal with this so He can create One New Man.

 

Some of the 'ordinances' in the Mosaic covenant/law, work to keep the Jewish people separated from the surrounding people (Gentiles). One such ordinance or series of laws are the laws concerning what a person can or can not eat. In the Roman culture, as well as most other cultures, visiting or getting together, often involves food. It was very important in the Roman culture as well as the Jewish culture. To invite people to your house means to share food. But, the Kosher laws keep a Jewish person from eating in a Gentile home, so, essentially Jewish people could not go to a Gentile home to visit, as they would often have to decline food, which would be an insult, and cut short any visit. So, for Jew and Gentiles to be One together, this enmity, the law of ordinances, must be taken out of the way. It was not just food, but there are other laws concerning clean and unclean.  

 

Of course this takes us to Acts and the story of Peter and Cornelius. Peter was to go to the house of Cornelius who was a Gentile. The issue was first, Gentiles were considered unclean, a ritual condition. Peter could not eat the food at Cornelius' home. It was unclean and could render Peter ritually unclean.

 

Acts 10:9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the ^[f]sixth hour to pray. ¹⁰ But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; ¹¹ and he *saw the ^[g]sky opened up, and an ^[h]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, ¹² and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and ^[i]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the ^[j]air. ¹³ A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, ^[k]kill and eat!” ¹⁴ But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything ^[l]unholy and unclean.” ¹⁵ Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider ^[m]unholy.” ¹⁶ This happened three times, and immediately the ^[n]object was taken up into the ^[o]sky.

¹⁷ Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in ^[p]mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; ¹⁸ and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. ¹⁹ While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, ^[q]three men are looking for you. ²⁰ But get up, go downstairs and accompany them ^[r]without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” ²¹ Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” ²² They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear ^[s]a message from you.” ²³ So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

 

In Acts 11, Peter returns to Jerusalem to report the outcome.

 

Acts 11:2  And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, ^[a]those who were circumcised took issue with him, ³ saying, “You ^[went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

 

God took away the law of ordinances, which is a separator to keep Jews and Gentiles apart, but now takes the Mosaic law out of the way, so Jews and Gentiles can be brought together as one new man.

[Guest ninhao]

This is interesting Qnts. As a comparison what do you say Jesus abolished in Ephesians. That is; what is "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" ?

 

Eph 2:13-17  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;  (15)  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;  (16)  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

, 

 

 

The Ephesians verses are talking to Gentiles about the relationship between Jews and Gentiles. What is abolished is the enmity, and the enmity is the law of ordinances. This is the enmity between the Jews and Gentiles so God needs to deal with this so He can create One New Man.

 

Some of the 'ordinances' in the Mosaic covenant/law, work to keep the Jewish people separated from the surrounding people (Gentiles). One such ordinance or series of laws are the laws concerning what a person can or can not eat. In the Roman culture, as well as most other cultures, visiting or getting together, often involves food. It was very important in the Roman culture as well as the Jewish culture. To invite people to your house means to share food. But, the Kosher laws keep a Jewish person from eating in a Gentile home, so, essentially Jewish people could not go to a Gentile home to visit, as they would often have to decline food, which would be an insult, and cut short any visit. So, for Jew and Gentiles to be One together, this enmity, the law of ordinances, must be taken out of the way. It was not just food, but there are other laws concerning clean and unclean.  

 

Of course this takes us to Acts and the story of Peter and Cornelius. Peter was to go to the house of Cornelius who was a Gentile. The issue was first, Gentiles were considered unclean, a ritual condition. Peter could not eat the food at Cornelius' home. It was unclean and could render Peter ritually unclean.

 

Acts 10:9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the ^[f]sixth hour to pray. ¹⁰ But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; ¹¹ and he *saw the ^[g]sky opened up, and an ^[h]object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground, ¹² and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and ^[i]crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the ^[j]air. ¹³ A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, ^[k]kill and eat!” ¹⁴ But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything ^[l]unholy and unclean.” ¹⁵ Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider ^[m]unholy.” ¹⁶ This happened three times, and immediately the ^[n]object was taken up into the ^[o]sky.

¹⁷ Now while Peter was greatly perplexed in ^[p]mind as to what the vision which he had seen might be, behold, the men who had been sent by Cornelius, having asked directions for Simon’s house, appeared at the gate; ¹⁸ and calling out, they were asking whether Simon, who was also called Peter, was staying there. ¹⁹ While Peter was reflecting on the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, ^[q]three men are looking for you. ²⁰ But get up, go downstairs and accompany them ^[r]without misgivings, for I have sent them Myself.” ²¹ Peter went down to the men and said, “Behold, I am the one you are looking for; what is the reason for which you have come?” ²² They said, “Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear ^[s]a message from you.” ²³ So he invited them in and gave them lodging.

 

In Acts 11, Peter returns to Jerusalem to report the outcome.

 

Acts 11:2  And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, ^[a]those who were circumcised took issue with him, ³ saying, “You ^[went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”

 

God took away the law of ordinances, which is a separator to keep Jews and Gentiles apart, but now takes the Mosaic law out of the way, so Jews and Gentiles can be brought together as one new man.

 

 

Can you show me where God takes the Mosaic law out of the way  ie. we can say definitively that the laws contained in ordinances were abolished ( as written in Ephesians and demonstrated to Peter in vision )  but can we say the moral laws have been abolished ?