The Late Dr. Walter Martin

[JohnD]

"The ultimate test of whether something is Christian. If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature, and work of Jesus Christ... it doesn't make any difference where else you're right. You are not Christian. If you have the wrong God, the wrong Redeemer, you're lost. That has been the message of the Christian Church historically."  Walter Martin Opening argument in this debate in 1987.

[Dak]

"The ultimate test of whether something is Christian. If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature, and work of Jesus Christ... it doesn't make any difference where else you're right. You are not Christian. If you have the wrong God, the wrong Redeemer, you're lost. That has been the message of the Christian Church historically." Walter Martin Opening argument in this debate in 1987.

Hey... you're trying to revive the discussions on how to identify a Christian? Probably not a good idea right now, as people just have had a bad experience about it.

But let's give it a try, shall we?

I agree with what Martin said (which I'm assuming you also believe in), except with these words: "ultimate test". And that is because having the right knowledge about God is not enough; one must also LIVE the Christian faith. So let's just say that it's only one of the tests, shall we?

Sure, I can buy a book filled with right doctrines and teach from it -- I can even memorize everything in it, if I want to -- but if I do only this, if I don't personally know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and try to live his commandments, then certainly I'm not a Christian, am I?

In fact, I think is the ultimate test, having that relationship with Christ. Because false doctrines can be understood and corrected (for who becomes a believer and suddenly knows all the right information about God?), but a relationship with Jesus is something that can never be duplicated, or counterfeited.

~

[*Zion*]

 

"The ultimate test of whether something is Christian. If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature, and work of Jesus Christ... it doesn't make any difference where else you're right. You are not Christian. If you have the wrong God, the wrong Redeemer, you're lost. That has been the message of the Christian Church historically." Walter Martin Opening argument in this debate in 1987.

Hey... you're trying to revive the discussions on how to identify a Christian? Probably not a good idea right now, as people just have had a bad experience about it.

But let's give it a try, shall we?

I agree with what Martin said (which I'm assuming you also believe in), except with these words: "ultimate test". And that is because having the right knowledge about God is not enough; one must also LIVE the Christian faith. So let's just say that it's only one of the tests, shall we?

Sure, I can buy a book filled with right doctrines and teach from it -- I can even memorize everything in it, if I want to -- but if I do only this, if I don't personally know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and try to live his commandments, then certainly I'm not a Christian, am I?

In fact, I think is the ultimate test, having that relationship with Christ. Because false doctrines can be understood and corrected (for who becomes a believer and suddenly knows all the right information about God?), but a relationship with Jesus is something that can never be duplicated, or counterfeited.

~

 

 

Is it not also a question of growth?  Yes one is born again into the kingdom of God and one does have a relationship with Him, but what good is the plant shoot if it doesn't keep growing into the beautiful tulip or daffodil or rose that God has created it to be?  Growth means one is alive.

 

For instance, I can have a good relationship with the Lord but if I want to preach on God's grace must I not first grow in that grace and intimately be acquainted with it so that it brings about its fruit to my life so that I am not a hypocrite?  If want to preach on praise, I can't just say 'praise the Lord!' I need a clear revelation and deep acquaintance with praise and what it is.  These two things are simple concepts to grasp but the profundity of both are vast and the revelations therein.  We know this, but have we searched out their very depths?

 

If I cease to grow, and just stay where I am in my walk with the Lord then I am stagnant.  I'm staying dead.  A Christian is a disciple of Christ who grows into full likeness and maturity of Christ.  We have got to look, smell, taste, sound, and feel Christian.  And wherever we are at on this journey, we are that rose, daffodil, tulip, we're just growing into that.  But if we stop growing, we stop being.  Now God is gracious, and can bring conviction and repentance and revival to us and kick start our journey, but ultimately is is our decision to keep going forward or not. 

 

What do you think?

[Guest ninhao]

 

 

Hey... you're trying to revive the discussions on how to identify a Christian? Probably not a good idea right now, as people just have had a bad experience about it.

But let's give it a try, shall we?

I agree with what Martin said (which I'm assuming you also believe in), except with these words: "ultimate test". And that is because having the right knowledge about God is not enough; one must also LIVE the Christian faith. So let's just say that it's only one of the tests, shall we?

Sure, I can buy a book filled with right doctrines and teach from it -- I can even memorize everything in it, if I want to -- but if I do only this, if I don't personally know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and try to live his commandments, then certainly I'm not a Christian, am I?

In fact, I think is the ultimate test, having that relationship with Christ. Because false doctrines can be understood and corrected (for who becomes a believer and suddenly knows all the right information about God?), but a relationship with Jesus is something that can never be duplicated, or counterfeited.

~

 

 

Is it not also a question of growth?  Yes one is born again into the kingdom of God and one does have a relationship with Him, but what good is the plant shoot if it doesn't keep growing into the beautiful tulip or daffodil or rose that God has created it to be?  Growth means one is alive.

 

For instance, I can have a good relationship with the Lord but if I want to preach on God's grace must I not first grow in that grace and intimately be acquainted with it so that it brings about its fruit to my life so that I am not a hypocrite?  If want to preach on praise, I can't just say 'praise the Lord!' I need a clear revelation and deep acquaintance with praise and what it is.  These two things are simple concepts to grasp but the profundity of both are vast and the revelations therein.  We know this, but have we searched out their very depths?

 

If I cease to grow, and just stay where I am in my walk with the Lord then I am stagnant.  I'm staying dead.  A Christian is a disciple of Christ who grows into full likeness and maturity of Christ.  We have got to look, smell, taste, sound, and feel Christian.  And wherever we are at on this journey, we are that rose, daffodil, tulip, we're just growing into that.  But if we stop growing, we stop being.  Now God is gracious, and can bring conviction and repentance and revival to us and kick start our journey, but ultimately is is our decision to keep going forward or not. 

 

What do you think?

 

 

I think you are both correct

[Dak]

"The ultimate test of whether something is Christian. If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature, and work of Jesus Christ... it doesn't make any difference where else you're right. You are not Christian. If you have the wrong God, the wrong Redeemer, you're lost. That has been the message of the Christian Church historically." Walter Martin Opening argument in this debate in 1987.

Hey... you're trying to revive the discussions on how to identify a Christian? Probably not a good idea right now, as people just have had a bad experience about it.

But let's give it a try, shall we?

I agree with what Martin said (which I'm assuming you also believe in), except with these words: "ultimate test". And that is because having the right knowledge about God is not enough; one must also LIVE the Christian faith. So let's just say that it's only one of the tests, shall we?

Sure, I can buy a book filled with right doctrines and teach from it -- I can even memorize everything in it, if I want to -- but if I do only this, if I don't personally know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and try to live his commandments, then certainly I'm not a Christian, am I?

In fact, I think is the ultimate test, having that relationship with Christ. Because false doctrines can be understood and corrected (for who becomes a believer and suddenly knows all the right information about God?), but a relationship with Jesus is something that can never be duplicated, or counterfeited.

~

Is it not also a question of growth? Yes one is born again into the kingdom of God and one does have a relationship with Him, but what good is the plant shoot if it doesn't keep growing into the beautiful tulip or daffodil or rose that God has created it to be? Growth means one is alive.

For instance, I can have a good relationship with the Lord but if I want to preach on God's grace must I not first grow in that grace and intimately be acquainted with it so that it brings about its fruit to my life so that I am not a hypocrite? If want to preach on praise, I can't just say 'praise the Lord!' I need a clear revelation and deep acquaintance with praise and what it is. These two things are simple concepts to grasp but the profundity of both are vast and the revelations therein. We know this, but have we searched out their very depths?

If I cease to grow, and just stay where I am in my walk with the Lord then I am stagnant. I'm staying dead. A Christian is a disciple of Christ who grows into full likeness and maturity of Christ. We have got to look, smell, taste, sound, and feel Christian. And wherever we are at on this journey, we are that rose, daffodil, tulip, we're just growing into that. But if we stop growing, we stop being. Now God is gracious, and can bring conviction and repentance and revival to us and kick start our journey, but ultimately is is our decision to keep going forward or not.

What do you think?

Of course, Zion, I agree with you. It's also a matter of growth. This is why I said that knowledge about God is not enough, that one must also LIVE the Christian faith. And living the faith means growing in the faith, right? For isn't this what we've been taught, isn't this what we believe in, that we ought to become like Jesus more and more?

Also, notice what I said at the end, that a relationship with Christ is something that can never be duplicated nor counterfeited -- the reason why this should be the ultimate test. What do I mean by this? FRUITS, of course. The results of GROWTH. Because only a true Christian who has a strong and intimate relationship with Jesus can produce real fruits in their lives -- fruits that can never be duplicated nor counterfeited.

Remember what Jesus said about him being the vine and we the branches?

~

[*Zion*]

Amen brother, no disagreement here

[angels4u]

 

"The ultimate test of whether something is Christian. If you are corrupt in your doctrine of God and the person, nature, and work of Jesus Christ... it doesn't make any difference where else you're right. You are not Christian. If you have the wrong God, the wrong Redeemer, you're lost. That has been the message of the Christian Church historically." Walter Martin Opening argument in this debate in 1987.

Hey... you're trying to revive the discussions on how to identify a Christian? Probably not a good idea right now, as people just have had a bad experience about it.

But let's give it a try, shall we?

I agree with what Martin said (which I'm assuming you also believe in), except with these words: "ultimate test". And that is because having the right knowledge about God is not enough; one must also LIVE the Christian faith. So let's just say that it's only one of the tests, shall we?

Sure, I can buy a book filled with right doctrines and teach from it -- I can even memorize everything in it, if I want to -- but if I do only this, if I don't personally know Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and try to live his commandments, then certainly I'm not a Christian, am I?

In fact, I think is the ultimate test, having that relationship with Christ. Because false doctrines can be understood and corrected (for who becomes a believer and suddenly knows all the right information about God?), but a relationship with Jesus is something that can never be duplicated, or counterfeited.

~

 

If you only have the Word you dry up,

if you only have the Spirit you blow up,if you have the Word and the Spirit you grow up.

 

Nor by might nor by power,but by My Spirit says the Lord.