The Lie of Socialized Medicine

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Shiloh..

    Exactly right,,,,,I did'nt say it was far fetched?Oh,maybe someone else did.....but its already underway,Let me remind you that I live in Florida where we have as many Century Village type facilities as McDonalds  & this is all these poor elderly people talk about.....Oh,& they were the ones that had United Health who dropped out of the Medicare Groups because of Obamacare  & now they are all going to those fewer doctors & are already complaining of how they could not get an appointment for 1 month now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,meanwhile ,they were promised they would not have to change doctors -ha!

         The network of doctors that were with United was huge........its already begun,just as you are describing

                                                                                                                                    With love,in Christ-Kwik

[MrsRational]

 

Wait times are a myth. If you are someone who has a trivial issue...a cold or a stubbed toe then yes you have to wait hours. If you have cancer or need life saving operations there are no wait times. Usually if you cannot get the treatment you need fast enough here they will pay for you to have the operation done outside the country.

 

I'm sure one or two people will try and dredge up a few cases of people who fell through the cracks, and to that I say "don't bother". No system is perfect but in Canada no one dies because they are poor and we have zero medical related bankruptcies. And yes we still have a thriving private insurance industry despite government run health care.

 

Actually, wait times are not a myth. I have too many friends who live in Canada who tell me their stories. What you consider and Canadian health care considers a trivial issue, is not what others consider trivial. What if you needed a simple outpatient procedure in order to eat solid food? You were living on a liquid diet. And you were turned down for the procedure?  

 

Does Canadian insurance cover your medicine? (This coverage varies by province)  

Do you have supplemental insurance? (66% of Canadians purchase supplimental insurance to cover what their health care government insurance does not).  

 

To cover the cost of their socialized medicine, the price comes out of national income tax, provincial income tax, other taxes including sales taxes (GST & PST), money raised thru lotteries.  Some provinces charge a special additional health care tax. Plus other possibilities I am not aware of as many of the taxes are at the Provincial level. Canada spends about 12% of it's gross national product on their health care system, and then private companies still finance supplemental insurance, and individuals still purchase private insurance to make up for what isn't covered. (A lot of Canadians who live near the border, travel to the U.S. to shop because the cost of goods is much less in the U.S.)     

 

That plus, the average salary for doctors in Canada is $125,000, vs about $185,000 in the U.S. A lot of U.S. doctors aren't crazy about the long expensive education (student loans), a job which requires a lot of overtime, plus on call hours, etc. Plus government breathing down you neck with silly regulations.   

 

 

Every anti-health care American I meet "has a Canadian/U.K. friend who says it's horrible".

 

1. Do you live here? Have you used the health care here? have you asked any other Canadians here? No? I think we'd know better than you about our own health care.

 

2. Stubbed toes and minor injuries are trivial issues. They might not be trivial to the person who is in pain and wants care now, but we have the thing where people who are dying get seen first.

 

3. Prescription meds in Ontario are usually not covered. I cannot speak for other provinces.

 

4. Supplemental health insurance covers things like better rooms, amenities and more time for sick leave. Not things like injuries or illness which are 100% covered by out health plan. Some cover medication and dental.

 

5. It's covered by taxes...so what? The United States pays more per capita than we do and coveres far far less.

 

6. Medical care is Cheaper in Canada, I challenge you to prove otherwise or that Canadians travel to the U.S. for cheaper care. I expect numbers from sources and cited studies, not blogs and anecdotes.

 

7. Maybe you don't want your doctor to study for eight years and have any standards of competence imposed on him, but I like surviving my treatment.

Edited January 29, 2014 by MrsRational

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Wait times are a myth. If you are someone who has a trivial issue...a cold or a stubbed toe then yes you have to wait hours. If you have cancer or need life saving operations there are no wait times. Usually if you cannot get the treatment you need fast enough here they will pay for you to have the operation done outside the country.

 

I'm sure one or two people will try and dredge up a few cases of people who fell through the cracks, and to that I say "don't bother". No system is perfect but in Canada no one dies because they are poor and we have zero medical related bankruptcies. And yes we still have a thriving private insurance industry despite government run health care.

 

Actually, wait times are not a myth. I have too many friends who live in Canada who tell me their stories. What you consider and Canadian health care considers a trivial issue, is not what others consider trivial. What if you needed a simple outpatient procedure in order to eat solid food? You were living on a liquid diet. And you were turned down for the procedure?  

 

Does Canadian insurance cover your medicine? (This coverage varies by province)  

Do you have supplemental insurance? (66% of Canadians purchase supplimental insurance to cover what their health care government insurance does not).  

 

To cover the cost of their socialized medicine, the price comes out of national income tax, provincial income tax, other taxes including sales taxes (GST & PST), money raised thru lotteries.  Some provinces charge a special additional health care tax. Plus other possibilities I am not aware of as many of the taxes are at the Provincial level. Canada spends about 12% of it's gross national product on their health care system, and then private companies still finance supplemental insurance, and individuals still purchase private insurance to make up for what isn't covered. (A lot of Canadians who live near the border, travel to the U.S. to shop because the cost of goods is much less in the U.S.)     

 

That plus, the average salary for doctors in Canada is $125,000, vs about $185,000 in the U.S. A lot of U.S. doctors aren't crazy about the long expensive education (student loans), a job which requires a lot of overtime, plus on call hours, etc. Plus government breathing down you neck with silly regulations.   

 

 

Every anti-health care American I meet "has a Canadian/U.K. friend who says it's horrible".

 

1. Do you live here? Have you used the health care here? have you asked any other Canadians here? No? I think we'd know better than you about our own health care.

 

2. Stubbed toes and minor injuries are trivial issues. They might not be trivial to the person who is in pain and wants care now, but we have the thing where people who are dying get seen first.

 

3. Prescription meds in Ontario are usually not covered. I cannot speak for other provinces.

 

4. Supplemental health insurance covers things like better rooms, amenities and more time for sick leave. Not things like injuries or illness which are 100% covered by out health plan. Some cover medication and dental.

 

5. It's covered by taxes...so what? The United States pays more per capita than we do and coveres far far less.

 

6. Medical care is Cheaper in Canada, I challenge you to prove otherwise or that Canadians travel to the U.S. for cheaper care. I expect numbers from sources and cited studies, not blogs and anecdotes.

 

7. Maybe you don't want your doctor to study for eight years and have any standards of competence imposed on him, but I like surviving my treatment.

 

 

Evidently, you don't want to face up to reality that not everyone else's experience with socialized medicine is like your own.   There are numerous stories, not just our "friends" or acquaintances.  The problems with socialized medicine in other countries have been in the news over the years and there was reason why people lving under socialized medicine couldn't wait 3 months to see a doctor and decided to come to get treatment in the US.

 

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/hard-lesson-about-socialized-medicine

[Qnts2]

 

 

Wait times are a myth. If you are someone who has a trivial issue...a cold or a stubbed toe then yes you have to wait hours. If you have cancer or need life saving operations there are no wait times. Usually if you cannot get the treatment you need fast enough here they will pay for you to have the operation done outside the country.

 

I'm sure one or two people will try and dredge up a few cases of people who fell through the cracks, and to that I say "don't bother". No system is perfect but in Canada no one dies because they are poor and we have zero medical related bankruptcies. And yes we still have a thriving private insurance industry despite government run health care.

 

Actually, wait times are not a myth. I have too many friends who live in Canada who tell me their stories. What you consider and Canadian health care considers a trivial issue, is not what others consider trivial. What if you needed a simple outpatient procedure in order to eat solid food? You were living on a liquid diet. And you were turned down for the procedure?  

 

Does Canadian insurance cover your medicine? (This coverage varies by province)  

Do you have supplemental insurance? (66% of Canadians purchase supplimental insurance to cover what their health care government insurance does not).  

 

To cover the cost of their socialized medicine, the price comes out of national income tax, provincial income tax, other taxes including sales taxes (GST & PST), money raised thru lotteries.  Some provinces charge a special additional health care tax. Plus other possibilities I am not aware of as many of the taxes are at the Provincial level. Canada spends about 12% of it's gross national product on their health care system, and then private companies still finance supplemental insurance, and individuals still purchase private insurance to make up for what isn't covered. (A lot of Canadians who live near the border, travel to the U.S. to shop because the cost of goods is much less in the U.S.)     

 

That plus, the average salary for doctors in Canada is $125,000, vs about $185,000 in the U.S. A lot of U.S. doctors aren't crazy about the long expensive education (student loans), a job which requires a lot of overtime, plus on call hours, etc. Plus government breathing down you neck with silly regulations.   

 

 

Every anti-health care American I meet "has a Canadian/U.K. friend who says it's horrible".

 

1. Do you live here? Have you used the health care here? have you asked any other Canadians here? No? I think we'd know better than you about our own health care.

 

2. Stubbed toes and minor injuries are trivial issues. They might not be trivial to the person who is in pain and wants care now, but we have the thing where people who are dying get seen first.

 

3. Prescription meds in Ontario are usually not covered. I cannot speak for other provinces.

 

4. Supplemental health insurance covers things like better rooms, amenities and more time for sick leave. Not things like injuries or illness which are 100% covered by out health plan. Some cover medication and dental.

 

5. It's covered by taxes...so what? The United States pays more per capita than we do and coveres far far less.

 

6. Medical care is Cheaper in Canada, I challenge you to prove otherwise or that Canadians travel to the U.S. for cheaper care. I expect numbers from sources and cited studies, not blogs and anecdotes.

 

7. Maybe you don't want your doctor to study for eight years and have any standards of competence imposed on him, but I like surviving my treatment.

 

 

1. I already stated that I do not live in Canada. I often travel to Quebec and Ontario. I was in Amherstburg Ontario and due to an illness, had to see a doctor while there. I did get in fairly quickly, but they had an issue with their computer system, entering a non-resident who was not on the Canadian plan. They ended up giving me an address in Quebec, and I was entered as a resident non-citizen. The cost was very inexpensive.

  (as a side note,Amherstburg is a very beautiful little town. I enjoy Ontario as it has many very nice places to visit, and the 401 highway is a good highway, except during rush hour going thru Toronto.)

 

2. My illustration is not as simple as a stubbed toe, so you are not really dealing with the issue. I live close enough to Canada that periodically, Canadians come over the border for treatment of serious illnesses requiring treatment (cancer), because they can not get treatment in Quebec in a timely manner. My friend I mentioned had a 'webbing' in his throat which prevented him from eating solid food of any kind, and he could not get the simple out-patient treatment and I am talking about not weeks or months, but over a year. Some provinces have allowed private clinics and hospitals, so Canadians can go off system, and pay out of pocket but not all provinces allow that for fear the private clinics will suck up too many doctors. Another friend who lived on Vancouver Island had fibromyalgia and had great difficulty getting treatment. Again, not a trivial disease, and extremely painful. Not just a stubbed toe.        

 

3. OK, so Ontario does not include medicine. I know the benefits vary by province. But I don't know the actual differences.

 

4. Not everything is covered by the health plan. Again, people are going to private clinics and the U.S. I had heard if an illness is serious, and the public treatment centers cannot provide service, Canada has paid for treatment in U.S hospitals, but I don't know how common that is.    

 

5. Actually, if strictly looking at income tax, the U.S. and Canada are comparible. Some variations depending on tax bracket. But, it is other taxes in Canada which are very very high. Much higher then the U.S. And again, since payment for healthcare is by province, the taxes vary by province. I have talked to friends in Ontario and Quebec and compared tax rates.  

 

6. From my experience, what I paid for a medical visit, and what people pay for medicine, it is cheaper in Canada then the U.S.  Canadians do not travel to the U.S to save money, but to get treatment they can not get in Canada or can not get in a reasonable length of time in Canada.   

 

7. not worth responding to as it is a silly statement.  

[MrsRational]

1. I already stated that I do not live in Canada. I often travel to Quebec and Ontario. I was in Amherstburg Ontario and due to an illness, had to see a doctor while there. I did get in fairly quickly, but they had an issue with their computer system, entering a non-resident who was not on the Canadian plan. They ended up giving me an address in Quebec, and I was entered as a resident non-citizen. The cost was very inexpensive.

  (as a side note,Amherstburg is a very beautiful little town. I enjoy Ontario as it has many very nice places to visit, and the 401 highway is a good highway, except during rush hour going through Toronto.)

 

Okay now you are stating your points far better. So you acknowledge our health care system is good overall, I appreciate that.

 

 

2. My illustration is not as simple as a stubbed toe, so you are not really dealing with the issue. I live close enough to Canada that periodically, Canadians come over the border for treatment of serious illnesses requiring treatment (cancer), because they can not get treatment in Quebec in a timely manner. My friend I mentioned had a 'webbing' in his throat which prevented him from eating solid food of any kind, and he could not get the simple out-patient treatment and I am talking about not weeks or months, but over a year. Some provinces have allowed private clinics and hospitals, so Canadians can go off system, and pay out of pocket but not all provinces allow that for fear the private clinics will suck up too many doctors. Another friend who lived on Vancouver Island had fibromyalgia and had great difficulty getting treatment. Again, not a trivial disease, and extremely painful. Not just a stubbed toe.

 

As to your first friend, the province will pay to fly people out of country for treatment if the needed care cannot be provided in a timely manner. I would find out if he paid out of pocket or if the costs were covered. As to the second...well "painful" is not the same as an emergency. Some people wait longer than they should, I do not dispute that but it is not the disaster some right wing blowhards on t.v. try to portray.

 

3. OK, so Ontario does not include medicine. I know the benefits vary by province. But I don't know the actual differences.

 

I have only ever lived in Ontario so I cannot comment on other provinces. Each one runs it's own provincial health insurance plan and we all pay into it, so yet the terms vary slightly for province to province.

 

4. Not everything is covered by the health plan. Again, people are going to private clinics and the U.S. I had heard if an illness is serious, and the public treatment centers cannot provide service, Canada has paid for treatment in U.S hospitals, but I don't know how common that is.

 

It does happen sometimes and that is the sign of a good system. A bad system would tell them to wait until a Canadian doctor can treat them. There is a doctor shortage in Canada right now and the reason are very long and not something I can sum up in a brief post. Things are getting better however.

 

5. Actually, if strictly looking at income tax, the U.S. and Canada are comparable. Some variations depending on tax bracket. But, it is other taxes in Canada which are very very high. Much higher then the U.S. And again, since payment for healthcare is by province, the taxes vary by province. I have talked to friends in Ontario and Quebec and compared tax rates.

 

I never said anything about who pays more in taxes I said the U.S. pays more per capita than Canada does on healthcare and Americans get less for their money on top.

 

6. From my experience, what I paid for a medical visit, and what people pay for medicine, it is cheaper in Canada then the U.S.  Canadians do not travel to the U.S to save money, but to get treatment they can not get in Canada or can not get in a reasonable length of time in Canada.

 

Sometimes yes. The reason our hospitals are cheaper is because of those evil regulations that prevent price gouging.

 

7. not worth responding to as it is a silly statement.

 

I don't think so...what regulations do you think are silly? Doctors are strictly trained and regulated because I don't want any boob opening me up and sticking their fingers in my organs, I want someone well trained and certified for competence. I cannot wrap my head around why you would consider that a bad thing.

Edited January 30, 2014 by MrsRational

[Maui Ice]

I'm very skeptical of health care systems. I guess moreso I have an unfavorable opinion on health insurances. While we can pay rediculously high premiums and monthly payments for our coverages, we then in turn ahve to pay pretty high costs when a time for emergency comes around too. I can pay $3900 a year for a family coverage, be healthjy the whole year. Never use a cent of the coverage. Still though there's such things as deductables and pretty high costs and co-pays if for some reason a broken ankle is suffered and an x-ray is needed? Surgery of course is outrageously expensive as well even with coverage.

 

However it's that double-edged sword. If we don't have health care, we're going to pay 10 times as much or more. The whole health system and the doctors that work in the field do make A LOT of money. No matter if they help the patient or not, their pockets are full. It's a crazy system, but one that won't be going away or changing anytime soon I bet.