Two Israels / Two Torahs / Two Covenants / Two Tabernacles

[Guest shiloh357]

You and others may not want to see it for what it is.

 

I get that.

 

But you have yet to disprove any of the scripture I cited with scripture.

 

You only offer opinion (so far). 

 

The Bible says we are grafted into the already existing Olive Tree. Romans 11:16-26 and calls it "all Israel." After the distinguishing of Roman 9:6 where Paul states that unbelieving Israel is not "all Israel."

 

Scripture and scripture.

 

Show me scripture that proves this wrong.

 

Please.

I am not trying to disprove Scripture!!!  I am simply stating that you are exegeting the Scriptures incorrectly.    Rom. 11:16-26 is not calling Jews and Gentiles "all Israel."

 

Sorry but you are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation. 

[Guest shiloh357]

Understand.

 

I am not here to win a contest.

 

I just want the truth to be shown and unless you can disprove it with scripture, the scriptures I have shown must be received authoritatively (not at all because I believe it... but because it is in keeping with God's word).

I receive the Scriptures you presented.  I do not receive your faulty exegesis of them.

[JohnD]

 

Galatians 6:16 (NASB95)

16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Should have also said "and the Gentiles of God."

 

Is that not the way you are interpreting this verse to mean just the Jewish believers?

"Israel" is NEVER spiritualized to refer to, or include Gentiles anywhere in the New Testament.   Paul includes the "Israel of God"  (Jewish believers) in his comments.   He already included the Gentiles and he also mentioned the Jewish believers who are the true "Israel of God."  

 

There is NO exegetical basis for claiming that "Israel of God" includes Gentiles.

 

 

Then all the passages in Romans Galatians Ephesians about there being no distinction between Jew and Gentile are wrong?

 

Romans 11:16-26 speaks of grafted in Gentiles and the salvation of all ISRAEL.

 

Is this not to include grafted in Gentiles?

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

And did you read Ephesians 2:11 ff ?

I did. What is at that you think we are take away from that passage?

 

 

Do you understand what it means?

 

 

Romans 10:12 (NASB95)

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

 First of all,  I asked you what it is about Eph 2:  11ff  that you think we need to understand. I know what the passage means.  I am just curious as to how you are taking it.

 

Secondly, Rom. 10:12  is talking about equal access to God's grace. That  is really all it is talking about.   No need to manufacture meaning that isn't there.

[JohnD]

 

You and others may not want to see it for what it is.

 

I get that.

 

But you have yet to disprove any of the scripture I cited with scripture.

 

You only offer opinion (so far). 

 

The Bible says we are grafted into the already existing Olive Tree. Romans 11:16-26 and calls it "all Israel." After the distinguishing of Roman 9:6 where Paul states that unbelieving Israel is not "all Israel."

 

Scripture and scripture.

 

Show me scripture that proves this wrong.

 

Please.

I am not trying to disprove Scripture!!!  I am simply stating that you are exegeting the Scriptures incorrectly.    Rom. 11:16-26 is not calling Jews and Gentiles "all Israel."

 

Sorry but you are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation. 

 

 

Nice. I have noticed that when people cannot disprove things they tend to accuse the other of doing what they are doing.

 

I have pointed to scripture after scripture.

 

You have not because apparently you cannot.

 

You only pooh pooh the interpretation of scriptural comparisons I have pointed out.

 

No, it is you are allowing your religion to steer your theology, my friend.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Galatians 6:16 (NASB95)

16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Should have also said "and the Gentiles of God."

 

Is that not the way you are interpreting this verse to mean just the Jewish believers?

"Israel" is NEVER spiritualized to refer to, or include Gentiles anywhere in the New Testament.   Paul includes the "Israel of God"  (Jewish believers) in his comments.   He already included the Gentiles and he also mentioned the Jewish believers who are the true "Israel of God."  

 

There is NO exegetical basis for claiming that "Israel of God" includes Gentiles.

 

 

Then all the passages in Romans Galatians Ephesians about there being no distinction between Jew and Gentile are wrong?

 

Romans 11:16-26 speaks of grafted in Gentiles and the salvation of all ISRAEL.

 

Is this not to include grafted in Gentiles?

 

No, they are not wrong.    Those passages are simply saying that ethnic pedigree, gender and social status do not put a person at either an advantage or disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.  You are misreading those passages and are trying  to apply them to an issue they were not written to address. 

 

Your exegesis is sloppy.

[JohnD]

 

Understand.

 

I am not here to win a contest.

 

I just want the truth to be shown and unless you can disprove it with scripture, the scriptures I have shown must be received authoritatively (not at all because I believe it... but because it is in keeping with God's word).

I receive the Scriptures you presented.  I do not receive your faulty exegesis of them.

 

 

Sure you do.

 

If you believe (despite scriptures in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians to the contrary) that there is a distinction between Jewish born believers In Jesus and Gentile born believers in Jesus.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

You and others may not want to see it for what it is.

 

I get that.

 

But you have yet to disprove any of the scripture I cited with scripture.

 

You only offer opinion (so far). 

 

The Bible says we are grafted into the already existing Olive Tree. Romans 11:16-26 and calls it "all Israel." After the distinguishing of Roman 9:6 where Paul states that unbelieving Israel is not "all Israel."

 

Scripture and scripture.

 

Show me scripture that proves this wrong.

 

Please.

I am not trying to disprove Scripture!!!  I am simply stating that you are exegeting the Scriptures incorrectly.    Rom. 11:16-26 is not calling Jews and Gentiles "all Israel."

 

Sorry but you are allowing your theology to drive your interpretation. 

 

 

Nice. I have noticed that when people cannot disprove things they tend to accuse the other of doing what they are doing.

 

I have pointed to scripture after scripture.

 

You have not because apparently you cannot.

 

You only pooh pooh the interpretation of scriptural comparisons I have pointed out.

 

No, it is you are allowing your religion to steer your theology, my friend.

 

I don't need to point any Scirpture that contradicts the Scripture you presented.   I am working from the scriptures you provided.  I am saying that you are mishandling the text and are applying them out of context and to an issue they were not meant to address.

 

I don't pit the Bible against itself.  I also don't use the kind of faulty exegesis you employ. 

[JohnD]

 

 

 

Galatians 6:16 (NASB95)

16 And those who will walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Should have also said "and the Gentiles of God."

 

Is that not the way you are interpreting this verse to mean just the Jewish believers?

"Israel" is NEVER spiritualized to refer to, or include Gentiles anywhere in the New Testament.   Paul includes the "Israel of God"  (Jewish believers) in his comments.   He already included the Gentiles and he also mentioned the Jewish believers who are the true "Israel of God."  

 

There is NO exegetical basis for claiming that "Israel of God" includes Gentiles.

 

 

Then all the passages in Romans Galatians Ephesians about there being no distinction between Jew and Gentile are wrong?

 

Romans 11:16-26 speaks of grafted in Gentiles and the salvation of all ISRAEL.

 

Is this not to include grafted in Gentiles?

 

No, they are not wrong.    Those passages are simply saying that ethnic pedigree, gender and social status do not put a person at either an advantage or disadvantage where access to God's grace is concerned.  You are misreading those passages and are trying  to apply them to an issue they were not written to address. 

 

Your exegesis is sloppy.

 

 

A sloppy exegesis is better than a traditional eisegesis any day.

[Guest shiloh357]

 

 

Understand.

 

I am not here to win a contest.

 

I just want the truth to be shown and unless you can disprove it with scripture, the scriptures I have shown must be received authoritatively (not at all because I believe it... but because it is in keeping with God's word).

I receive the Scriptures you presented.  I do not receive your faulty exegesis of them.

 

 

Sure you do.

 

If you believe (despite scriptures in Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians to the contrary) that there is a distinction between Jewish born believers In Jesus and Gentile born believers in Jesus.

 

No.  I believe there is no distinction in terms of access to God's grace which is what Paul is talking about in context.  The fact that in Christ there are neither Jew nor Greek doesn't mean that they lose their ethnic identity.   It simply means that everyone gets saved the same way, no distinctions or differences in that regard

 

Anyone can do what you are doing and just grab verses and passages and rip them from their literary context and string them together like lights on a Christmas tree and make them say whatever they want it to say.