Enoch2021 Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pining evangelizing the gospel of Jesus on the technical details of creation is an enormous mistake. The central message of the gospel is loss. Not following here. How would you start evangelizing the The Doctrine of Salvation without starting with Genesis 1:1? Genesis is "The central message of the Gospel". If you don't start there, I predict you will get there awful quick....you have No Foundation!! The Gospel and the OT are ONE BOOK....Jesus Christ starts with "In The Beginning" and Ends with the Last WORD in Revelation and.... is in Every single WORD in-between. (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Who's The WORD?......Jesus Christ. I heard someone say that the New Testament is in the Old Testament Concealed and the Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed. I'm not a Missionary but IMHO, you better get here awful quick too.....(James 4:4) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." The World says......the Earth and Universe is Billions of Years Old The World says......we evolved from Monkeys The World says......success success success....Ambition, Pride, the Quest for #1 (are Honored and Respected Character Traits) The World says......Scientists are our Priests The World says......Embrace all Religions The World says......"Do what thou Whilt" The World says......It's OK to be Gay, Abortions, Reductions in Population to Save the Trees The World says......(just today) BIBLE IN ERROR., Camel Bones and Radiometric Dating!! The World says..............................................................................................................................There is No GOD!! The Largest Escrow Closing in the History of the Universe is @ the Door. What say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphaparticle Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pining evangelizing the gospel of Jesus on the technical details of creation is an enormous mistake. The central message of the gospel is loss. Not following here. How would you start evangelizing the The Doctrine of Salvation without starting with Genesis 1:1? Genesis is "The central message of the Gospel". If you don't start there, I predict you will get there awful quick....you have No Foundation!! The Gospel and the OT are ONE BOOK....Jesus Christ starts with "In The Beginning" and Ends with the Last WORD in Revelation and.... is in Every single WORD in-between. (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Who's The WORD?......Jesus Christ. I heard someone say that the New Testament is in the Old Testament Concealed and the Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed. I'm not a Missionary but IMHO, you better get here awful quick too.....(James 4:4) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." The World says......the Earth and Universe is Billions of Years Old The World says......we evolved from Monkeys The World says......success success success....Ambition, Pride, the Quest for #1 (are Honored and Respected Character Traits) The World says......Scientists are our Priests The World says......Embrace all Religions The World says......"Do what thou Whilt" The World says......It's OK to be Gay, Abortions, Reductions in Population to Save the Trees The World says......(just today) BIBLE IN ERROR., Camel Bones and Radiometric Dating!! The World says..............................................................................................................................There is No GOD!! The Largest Escrow Closing in the History of the Universe is @ the Door. What say you? No, is what I say. I'm not sure what the argument here is. Think of all of the people who come to Christ without considering the intricate details of the manner of God's creation (including myself, my wife, and many many other people I have spoken to, some of whom are now YEC, some OEC etc). It's fairly clear that we can be fuzzy on some details but still know Jesus as Savior. That is why this is my signature: 1 Cr 15:3,4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pining evangelizing the gospel of Jesus on the technical details of creation is an enormous mistake. The central message of the gospel is loss. The OP shows that this is not necessarily the case. Okay but it sounded like the 'creationism evangelism' was a secondary effort. I suppose I understand people wanting to talk about this and spread this among believers insofar as they think it is true and the best way to understand Genesis, but I'd be concerned if this was balled up as part of a general approach to presenting the bare gospel to unbelievers. When I hear the term evangelism I naively think about spreading the saving message of the gospel. The point is that contrary to the silly canard that others on this board have been promoting, YEC doesn't impede people from accepting the Gospel message. This is just one piece of evidence that pretty much puts that argument to bed. I remember when people used to claim that the old hymns we sang in church were keeping people away from Jesus because modern young people couldn't relate to that style of music. The case was made that the traditional style of church music was and would continue to impede evangelism. That was back in the 80s when Contemporary Chrisitan music and Christian heaven metal were still in their infancy. Their claim was that if the Church simply became more relevant in its music style that we would see more people coming to the Lord. Never happened. Christian music has changed over the years and more and more churches over the years shed the old hymns and church robes in exchange for a bunch of twenty-somethings with, flip-flops, wrinkled shirts and messy hair banging on loud guitars and the promised revivals that were supposed to come never happened. Turned out it was never the music at all. Music and all of the external trappings that were supposed to make the church more attractional had exactly zero postive impact on evangelism. What we have learned is that the opposite is true. More and more young people are falling out of church shortly after highschool. It is not because they learned YEC in Church. It is because they don't have the critical thinking skills, nor the information to combat the onslaught of atheistic and agnostic influences that are so strong on college campuses all over America today. No one has ever had their faith wrecked by staying faithful to God's word. The people who are having problems understanding how it all works and how to put the pieces togeher are the ones trying to hold on the world and to the Kingdom of God. It simply doesn't work that way. It's what's at the heart of the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 I believe the pinnig of the gospels with the technical aspect of creation is used by some as a filter. I have found more than a few Christians that like what they see as the exclusive nature of Christianity and while they would never openly admit it, they work to keep it as exclusive as possible. They don't want those people that don't look like them or think like them or act like them in the fold. All of that is a pile of garbage having no intellectual or substantive merit, much less a basis in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphaparticle Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2014 The point is that contrary to the silly canard that others on this board have been promoting, YEC doesn't impede people from accepting the Gospel message. This is just one piece of evidence that pretty much puts that argument to bed. Depends on the person. It won't for every person. Maybe this helps one person while being a stumbling block to another. I have concerns about the way the message of the gospel ends up being focused though. No one has ever had their faith wrecked by staying faithful to God's word. The people who are having problems understanding how it all works and how to put the pieces togeher are the ones trying to hold on the world and to the Kingdom of God. It simply doesn't work that way. It's what's at the heart of the confusion. I'm fairly certain had you forced this dilemma down my throat at the outset my faith would have been shipwrecked before it was ever getting anywhere. That is true for others I have spoken to also. God may have changed that, sure, but if a person can believe he is a sinner in need of help from his Creator, and that help is in the form of Jesus, I cannot imagine why the specifics of the method of creation would be pushed on that person at the beginning. I don't think this is analogous to people liking or disliking old timey music. There may be a point though to saying, look, there is only one way to be a Christian here with style of worship, and if you don't like it, go away. That I could absolutely see becoming an unnecessary stumbling block to people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch2021 Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,396 Content Per Day: 0.90 Reputation: 730 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/26/1963 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pining evangelizing the gospel of Jesus on the technical details of creation is an enormous mistake. The central message of the gospel is loss. Not following here. How would you start evangelizing the The Doctrine of Salvation without starting with Genesis 1:1? Genesis is "The central message of the Gospel". If you don't start there, I predict you will get there awful quick....you have No Foundation!! The Gospel and the OT are ONE BOOK....Jesus Christ starts with "In The Beginning" and Ends with the Last WORD in Revelation and.... is in Every single WORD in-between. (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Who's The WORD?......Jesus Christ. I heard someone say that the New Testament is in the Old Testament Concealed and the Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed. I'm not a Missionary but IMHO, you better get here awful quick too.....(James 4:4) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." The World says......the Earth and Universe is Billions of Years Old The World says......we evolved from Monkeys The World says......success success success....Ambition, Pride, the Quest for #1 (are Honored and Respected Character Traits) The World says......Scientists are our Priests The World says......Embrace all Religions The World says......"Do what thou Whilt" The World says......It's OK to be Gay, Abortions, Reductions in Population to Save the Trees The World says......(just today) BIBLE IN ERROR., Camel Bones and Radiometric Dating!! The World says..............................................................................................................................There is No GOD!! The Largest Escrow Closing in the History of the Universe is @ the Door. What say you? No, is what I say. I'm not sure what the argument here is. Think of all of the people who come to Christ without considering the intricate details of the manner of God's creation (including myself, my wife, and many many other people I have spoken to, some of whom are now YEC, some OEC etc). It's fairly clear that we can be fuzzy on some details but still know Jesus as Savior. That is why this is my signature: 1 Cr 15:3,4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures Are you saying I should steer clear of the Missionary Field? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphaparticle Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2014 Pining evangelizing the gospel of Jesus on the technical details of creation is an enormous mistake. The central message of the gospel is loss. Not following here. How would you start evangelizing the The Doctrine of Salvation without starting with Genesis 1:1? Genesis is "The central message of the Gospel". If you don't start there, I predict you will get there awful quick....you have No Foundation!! The Gospel and the OT are ONE BOOK....Jesus Christ starts with "In The Beginning" and Ends with the Last WORD in Revelation and.... is in Every single WORD in-between. (John 1:1) "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Who's The WORD?......Jesus Christ. I heard someone say that the New Testament is in the Old Testament Concealed and the Old Testament is in the New Testament Revealed. I'm not a Missionary but IMHO, you better get here awful quick too.....(James 4:4) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." The World says......the Earth and Universe is Billions of Years Old The World says......we evolved from Monkeys The World says......success success success....Ambition, Pride, the Quest for #1 (are Honored and Respected Character Traits) The World says......Scientists are our Priests The World says......Embrace all Religions The World says......"Do what thou Whilt" The World says......It's OK to be Gay, Abortions, Reductions in Population to Save the Trees The World says......(just today) BIBLE IN ERROR., Camel Bones and Radiometric Dating!! The World says..............................................................................................................................There is No GOD!! The Largest Escrow Closing in the History of the Universe is @ the Door. What say you? No, is what I say. I'm not sure what the argument here is. Think of all of the people who come to Christ without considering the intricate details of the manner of God's creation (including myself, my wife, and many many other people I have spoken to, some of whom are now YEC, some OEC etc). It's fairly clear that we can be fuzzy on some details but still know Jesus as Savior. That is why this is my signature: 1 Cr 15:3,4 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures Are you saying I should steer clear of the Missionary Field? I don't know man lol. Whatever the Spirit says I suppose. Maybe this is an opening for some people. I can really only speak to my experience and the experiences of those I've heard from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 Depends on the person. It won't for every person. Maybe this helps one person while being a stumbling block to another. I have concerns about the way the message of the gospel ends up being focused though. The logic there assumes that it is the message that is stumbling block. The message isn't what causes people to stumble. I'm fairly certain had you forced this dilemma down my throat at the outset my faith would have been shipwrecked before it was ever getting anywhere. Jesus Himself is called the rock of offense. Jesus said things that caused his own disciples to turn from Him and follow Him no longer. Jesus used "the cross" as a filter to find who was really interested in following and who was not. Jesus didn't make Himself look attractional. He was truthful from the outset as to the cost of following Him. He required that people be prepared to give up everything they held dear and that included respect. When Jesus called on people to take up their cross, it meant the loss of all things. It meant being a societal outcast, because that was the cross represented shame. YEC may turn nonbelievers away from the Gospel. But that is not the fault of the YEC model. It is the fault of hardened hearts. People don't reject God on an intellectual level. They reject Him on a spirtual level. The notion that we have to tailor our faith to accomodate what unbelievers will or will not like, when we have to be palatable to the world, it defeats the entire biblical concept of being a peculiar (unique) people. God may have changed that, sure, but if a person can believe he is a sinner in need of help from his Creator, and that help is in the form of Jesus, I cannot imagine why the specifics of the method of creation would be pushed on that person at the beginning. Who said they should be??? I don't think this is analogous to people liking or disliking old timey music. There may be a point though to saying, look, there is only one way to be a Christian here with style of worship, and if you don't like it, go away. That I could absolutely see becoming an unnecessary stumbling block to people. It is analgous in terms of the principle in play. The things people think impede the Gospel are not the things that impede the Gospel. Unbelievers can come up with any number of excuses for rejecting God. They point to hypocrites in the church, they point to money-grubbing TV evangelists, they point to somebody they knew who was a Christian but committed some big sin, they point to the music, they point to the fact that we have so many denominations, they point to the fact that they don't like the idea that Jesus is the only way to God. Unbelievers point to anything and YEC and even OEC are both additional excuses they will use. Most who reject YEC reject creationism en toto, not just one version of it. I used to be an OEC'er myself and I took as much heat for that from Evolutionists and Theistic Evolutionists as I take for YEC now. It was no different. OEC is just as ridiculed and just as denigrated among evolutionists as YEC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphaparticle Posted February 13, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 13, 2014 Depends on the person. It won't for every person. Maybe this helps one person while being a stumbling block to another. I have concerns about the way the message of the gospel ends up being focused though. The logic there assumes that it is the message that is stumbling block. The message isn't what causes people to stumble. I'm fairly certain had you forced this dilemma down my throat at the outset my faith would have been shipwrecked before it was ever getting anywhere. Jesus Himself is called the rock of offense. Jesus said things that caused his own disciples to turn from Him and follow Him no longer. Jesus used "the cross" as a filter to find who was really interested in following and who was not. Jesus didn't make Himself look attractional. He was truthful from the outset as to the cost of following Him. He required that people be prepared to give up everything they held dear and that included respect. When Jesus called on people to take up their cross, it meant the loss of all things. It meant being a societal outcast, because that was the cross represented shame. YEC may turn nonbelievers away from the Gospel. But that is not the fault of the YEC model. It is the fault of hardened hearts. People don't reject God on an intellectual level. They reject Him on a spirtual level. The notion that we have to tailor our faith to accomodate what unbelievers will or will not like, when we have to be palatable to the world, it defeats the entire biblical concept of being a peculiar (unique) people. God may have changed that, sure, but if a person can believe he is a sinner in need of help from his Creator, and that help is in the form of Jesus, I cannot imagine why the specifics of the method of creation would be pushed on that person at the beginning. Who said they should be??? I don't think this is analogous to people liking or disliking old timey music. There may be a point though to saying, look, there is only one way to be a Christian here with style of worship, and if you don't like it, go away. That I could absolutely see becoming an unnecessary stumbling block to people. It is analgous in terms of the principle in play. The things people think impede the Gospel are not the things that impede the Gospel. Unbelievers can come up with any number of excuses for rejecting God. They point to hypocrites in the church, they point to money-grubbing TV evangelists, they point to somebody they knew who was a Christian but committed some big sin, they point to the music, they point to the fact that we have so many denominations, they point to the fact that they don't like the idea that Jesus is the only way to God. Unbelievers point to anything and YEC and even OEC are both additional excuses they will use. Most who reject YEC reject creationism en toto, not just one version of it. I used to be an OEC'er myself and I took as much heat for that from Evolutionists and Theistic Evolutionists as I take for YEC now. It was no different. OEC is just as ridiculed and just as denigrated among evolutionists as YEC. But YEC is *not* the gospel that actually saves. Yes, Jesus is an offense. But why make the barrier even higher than it needs to be?? Why provide a convenient route of distraction from the core of the issue, our personal sin, the punishment of sin, and our need of help? And it IS convenient for a lot of people who can simplistically collapse Christianity into YEC, talk about how stupid it is without having to deal with the central issue, and move on. I am not saying that talking about various creationisms might not help relate the gospel message to some, but to many, this just isn't going to be the case. Fixating on talking about radiometric dating (random example) rather than our sinful state could easily distract from God's simply existing, His sovereignty, and demand for justice. Maybe it is a part of it for some, but for others it's just a way they will divert attention off of it, and their own sinful nature. That I find extremely unfortunate. There are a lot of *unnecessary* barriers being erected to the gospel, when, as you point out, the central gospel claims are offense enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 But YEC is *not* the gospel that actually saves. That's right, it isn't. I didn't say it was. The point is that it not a hindrance to the Gospel. Yes, Jesus is an offense. But why make the barrier even higher than it needs to be?? Why provide a convenient route of distraction from the core of the issue, our personal sin, the punishment of sin, and our need of help? And it IS convenient for a lot of people who can simplistically collapse Christianity into YEC, talk about how stupid it is without having to deal with the central issue, and move on. But that means never talking about anything that might rustle the feathers of some people. What you're suggesting could be applied to just about anything isn't the "central" issue. It means muting the church on any issue that might serve as a "distraction." It would mean that the Church would have to tailor everything to suit what the hearer is willing to listen to, which pretty much excludes all of the Bible except from some benign passages out of Psalms. I am not saying that talking about various creationisms might not help relate the gospel message to some, but to many, this just isn't going to be the case. Fixating on talking about radiometric dating (random example) rather than our sinful state could easily distract from God's simply existing, His sovereignty, and demand for justice. Maybe it is a part of it for some, but for others it's just a way they will divert attention off of it, and their own sinful nature. Except nobody's fixated on creationism. It might appear that way because we are interacting in a series of threads dedicated to that issue, but creationists are not one issue people. What I see coming from your side is an attempt to intimidating YEC'ers from talking about it because if someone hears us, they may run the other way and reject Christianity altogether and that is simply not true. It is a scare tactic and it won't work. Peoplpe reject the Lord because of the hardness of their hearts, not because we are YEC'ers or whatever reason. It is the hardness of their hearts that is at fault and when they stand before the Lord in eternity, they won't be able to use that excuse. They will have made their decision and they are accountable to Him for it. They will have no one to blame but themselves. That I find extremely unfortunate. There are a lot of *unnecessary* barriers being erected to the gospel, when, as you point out, the central gospel claims are offense enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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