If men got the Titus 2 Treatment…

[EnochBethany]

 

 

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us.

Not exactly.

 

I do acknowledge both; however, in speaking with you I tend to emphasize the latter because you come across as presenting a God who holds a lightning bolt ready to strike us down. King David knew God better than that - and He lived in Old Testament times.

 

King David knew?

 

David sinned greatly, & God forgave Him;

but David was severely chastened.  He lost 4 children & had a daughter raped by a brother.

David had to flee from his son Absalom, who committed adultery with David's concubines, practically in public.

 

" And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his  error; and there he died by the ark of God.  8 And David was displeased, because Jehovah had broken forth upon Uzzah; and he called that place  Perez-uzzah, unto this day.  9 And David was afraid of YHWH that day" 2 Sam 6.

[nebula]

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us.

Not exactly.

 

I do acknowledge both; however, in speaking with you I tend to emphasize the latter because you come across as presenting a God who holds a lightning bolt ready to strike us down. King David knew God better than that - and He lived in Old Testament times.

How about Ananias, Saphira and Herod.  Did they know better?  Oh that's right.  God struck them all down because of sin, not with a lightening bolt, but the same result. 

 

Were or are those kinds of situations the norm? Is God striking people down left and right? With all the many ways the people of the church throughout history and today are dishonoring God, why are we not seeing instant deaths all over the place?

[nebula]

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us.

Not exactly.

 

I do acknowledge both; however, in speaking with you I tend to emphasize the latter because you come across as presenting a God who holds a lightning bolt ready to strike us down. King David knew God better than that - and He lived in Old Testament times.

King David knew?

 

David sinned greatly, & God forgave Him;

but David was severely chastened.  He lost 4 children & had a daughter raped by a brother.

David had to flee from his son Absalom, who committed adultery with David's concubines, practically in public.

 

" And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his  error; and there he died by the ark of God.  8 And David was displeased, because Jehovah had broken forth upon Uzzah; and he called that place  Perez-uzzah, unto this day.  9 And David was afraid of YHWH that day" 2 Sam 6.

 

Yes, King David knew. After the sentence was pronounced and his son became ill, what was David's response?

[EnochBethany]

 

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us.

Not exactly.

 

I do acknowledge both; however, in speaking with you I tend to emphasize the latter because you come across as presenting a God who holds a lightning bolt ready to strike us down. King David knew God better than that - and He lived in Old Testament times.

King David knew?

 

David sinned greatly, & God forgave Him;

but David was severely chastened.  He lost 4 children & had a daughter raped by a brother.

David had to flee from his son Absalom, who committed adultery with David's concubines, practically in public.

 

" And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his  error; and there he died by the ark of God.  8 And David was displeased, because Jehovah had broken forth upon Uzzah; and he called that place  Perez-uzzah, unto this day.  9 And David was afraid of YHWH that day" 2 Sam 6.

 

Yes, King David knew. After the sentence was pronounced and his son became ill, what was David's response?

 

David knew God was not ready to smite with a thunderbolt. 

 

Well, David knew that God was forgiving, but he also respected the severity of God's chastising, which was really severe on David.

I guess you consider the death of 4 children, a daughter raped, a son do sex with your concubines and try to kill you, less than a thunderbolt?

 

Which would you chose?  The thunderbolt or all the above?  Thunderbolt is sudden, of course, and David's torment went over many years, not that he was in constant torment.

 

So David's chastisement was not a thunderbolt, but the Lord is long suffering and forgiving.  Yet His chastisement can be severe. 

[nebula]

David knew God was not ready to smite with a thunderbolt. 

 

Well, David knew that God was forgiving, but he also respected the severity of God's chastising, which was really severe on David.

I guess you consider the death of 4 children, a daughter raped, a son do sex with your concubines and try to kill you, less than a thunderbolt?

 

Which would you chose?  The thunderbolt or all the above?  Thunderbolt is sudden, of course, and David's torment went over many years, not that he was in constant torment.

 

So David's chastisement was not a thunderbolt, but the Lord is long suffering and forgiving.  Yet His chastisement can be severe. 

 

Actually, I was thinking of this (the parts in bold):

 

Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. 16 David therefore inquired of God for the child ; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them. 18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm !" 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead ; so David said to his servants, "Is the child dead ?" And they said, "He is dead." 20 So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes ; and he came into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done ? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept ; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept ; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' 23 "But now he has died ; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Sam. 12)

 

 

Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?

[Guest Butero]

 

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us.

Not exactly.

 

I do acknowledge both; however, in speaking with you I tend to emphasize the latter because you come across as presenting a God who holds a lightning bolt ready to strike us down. King David knew God better than that - and He lived in Old Testament times.

How about Ananias, Saphira and Herod.  Did they know better?  Oh that's right.  God struck them all down because of sin, not with a lightening bolt, but the same result. 

 

Were or are those kinds of situations the norm? Is God striking people down left and right? With all the many ways the people of the church throughout history and today are dishonoring God, why are we not seeing instant deaths all over the place?

 

He gave them as examples.  It shows God will still will pour out his wrath on the disobedient in certain instances.  As to whether or not it is the normal, I don't know.  You hear about someone having a fatal heart attack while in the bed of adultery, and nobody looks at that as God striking them dead for their sin.  I know someone who was in a terrible accident while on his way back from cheating on his wife with a prostitute.  He lived, but will never be the same.  Just an accident, or judgment for his sin?  There is no way to answer that, but I can say for sure we were given examples in the Word.  You mention David, but you leave out Saul.  He didn't receive mercy for his sins, and one could make the case that what he did wasn't as bad as murder. 

 

To answer your question Nebula, I could make the case we are seeing "instant deaths all over the place," but we aren't always aware of the circumstances. 

[Guest Butero]

 

David knew God was not ready to smite with a thunderbolt. 

 

Well, David knew that God was forgiving, but he also respected the severity of God's chastising, which was really severe on David.

I guess you consider the death of 4 children, a daughter raped, a son do sex with your concubines and try to kill you, less than a thunderbolt?

 

Which would you chose?  The thunderbolt or all the above?  Thunderbolt is sudden, of course, and David's torment went over many years, not that he was in constant torment.

 

So David's chastisement was not a thunderbolt, but the Lord is long suffering and forgiving.  Yet His chastisement can be severe. 

 

Actually, I was thinking of this (the parts in bold):

 

Then the LORD struck the child that Uriah's widow bore to David, so that he was very sick. 16 David therefore inquired of God for the child ; and David fasted and went and lay all night on the ground. 17 The elders of his household stood beside him in order to raise him up from the ground, but he was unwilling and would not eat food with them. 18 Then it happened on the seventh day that the child died. And the servants of David were afraid to tell him that the child was dead, for they said, "Behold, while the child was still alive, we spoke to him and he did not listen to our voice. How then can we tell him that the child is dead, since he might do himself harm !" 19 But when David saw that his servants were whispering together, David perceived that the child was dead ; so David said to his servants, "Is the child dead ?" And they said, "He is dead." 20 So David arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes ; and he came into the house of the LORD and worshiped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate. 21 Then his servants said to him, "What is this thing that you have done ? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept ; but when the child died, you arose and ate food." 22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept ; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.' 23 "But now he has died ; why should I fast ? Can I bring him back again ? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Sam. 12)

 

 

Did David perceive God's judgement and vengeance to be His #1 characteristic, the trait above all traits, the position that trumps all else?

 

Who cares how David perceived things?  Look what happened to him and his family.  It was already mentioned what happened to the man that tried to steady the ark of the covenant.  Look what happened to the high priest who didn't sin himself, but died for his son's sins because he didn't stop them from doing wrong in 1 Samuel.  Look at all the kings besides David that were killed by God, either directly, or by him sending someone to judge them for him.  There are numerous examples of God striking people down for their sins.   This goes back to overlooking all them and focusing only on instances where there was mercy.  The thing I find interesting about that is God alone decides when he is going to show mercy and to what people.  To some people, there is no mercy.  There is no way to know which camp you will be in if you sin.  Will you be Ananias, or will you be the woman caught in the act of adultery?  Will you be the man or woman who gets up from the bed of adultery and goes on their way with no harm, or will you be the one who dies of a heart attack?  The Bible tells us that the whole duty of man is to fear God and keep his commandments. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

Jesus made it clear that he was Lord over his disciples, but he showed them how their Lord was willing to wash their feet.  He never gave up his Lordship.  The disciples obeyed Jesus, and he never once told them they were wrong to do so.  As a matter of fact, he stated in John's gospel that they were his friends, if they did whatsoever he commanded them.  Jesus is our example. 

 

OK, this has been bugging me.

 

I see a contradiction between what you stated and what I see in Scripture.

 

Phil 2

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation , and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 

Matt. 20

25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said , Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto , but to minister , and to give his life a ransom for many.

 

 

When I read your words, it sounds as if Jesus emphasized His Lordship over them. Yet when I read Scripture, I see Jesus emphasizing His humility.

 

While He invited people to Himself, and He praised those who followed Him, He never forced Himself or His authority on anyone.

 

Here is something I have found interesting about us Nebula.  We both place our emphasis on different verses when we look at God.  We both know what is in the Bible, but I see a judgment side of God, as in Ananias and Saphira, and you see John 3:16.  In this case, you see Jesus as showing himself a minister, and I see him as Lord, and supreme in authority.  A person in a place of authority will have to minister to those he is Lord over.  Jesus is not our servant, but he will minister to our needs because he loves us. 

 

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.  John 15:14

 

Again, remember that Jesus is our example.  Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.  Here he is making it clear that he is commanding his disciples to obey him, and they are his friends if they obey him.  He never gave up his Lordship, but he cared enough about his disciples to meet their needs.  Notice what Jesus says after washing the disciples feet.

 

Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye say well, for so I am.  If then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wask one another's feet.  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord, neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.   John 13:13-16

 

Jesus did emphasize his Lordship, but people aren't listening to those scriptures, but they read over them and don't notice what he is really saying.  A good master and Lord cares about those he is in authority over, so he ministers to them. 

 

Nothing we have been discussing of late is dealing with the OP.  We have moved to a discussion on the wrath of God verses the mercy of God to disobedient children.  You can find examples of both in scripture.  I want to return to the Lordship of Christ.  He did make clear he is both Master and Lord.  Jesus did make clear that he will command his servants to do things, and we are his friends if we obey his commands.  He is our example, and scripture says that wives are to submit to their husbands, as unto the Lord, or in the same way as we are to submit to Christ.  The example was given of Sarah calling her husband Abraham Lord.  Being a minister only means seeing and meeting the needs of others, it doesn't mean giving up one's place of authority.  This is yet another example of where you only see the Jesus you want to see, and ignore the big picture.  That is what you are doing with God.  You focus only on mercy, and you ignore judgment, and make excuses for it, like the number of instances you find of it in scripture.  Stories, like that of Sodom and gomorah are given for our examples, or even Lot's wife. 

 

It all comes down to what you are trying to do.  Are you wanting to really see God as he is, and see both instances of mercy and striking people down dead, or do you only want to see the nice parts?  Do you want to see the Jesus who washed the disciples feet, or the Jesus who made his Lordship clear and warned about a heaven to gain and a hell to shun?  Do you only want to see John 3:16, or are you also willing to take note of how we are told that straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it?  You can either look at everything and take an honest assessment of it, or you can do like a good lawyer will do, and only focus on those things that help your case. 

 

To me, winning a debate in a case like this means nothing, and I say that knowing you cannot win this one.  I know too many scriptures to counter any argument you may bring, so all it will come down to is you bringing up those things that seemingly help you, and me bringing up things that seemingly help me.  Then there is that fight to get the final post, which means nothing.  There is a balance here, where you recognize the mercy and judgment of God both takes place today.  There is a balance where you recognize that the husband is Lord over his wife, but that doesn't give him the right to beat her up, like Muslims do their wives, or treat her like dirt in general.  He has a right to "command" her to do things, as Jesus does his disciples, but he doesn't have the right to use force to make her obey, as Jesus didn't beat people up who disobeyed him.  The judgment comes at the end of this life.  Sometimes the end of this life comes quicker than it should because of our sins. 

[nebula]

The problem, Butero, is that what I hear from you is the perspective I grew up with, the view that knew more about God's judgment and wrath than God's love and mercy; a view that left me emotionally abusing myself because I could never be good enough, no matter how hard I tried (one of the contributing factors to my chronic depression); a view of God as being in a constant state of anger.

 

Listening to your words, it comes across as if you would interpret Ex. 34:6-7 this way -

 

Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, who will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. Yet He can be merciful and gracious, longsuffering , and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands who meet His conditions and standards, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin.

[nebula]

The example was given of Sarah calling her husband Abraham Lord. 

 

Around here, if people heard your wife calling you, "Lord," they would think you just came from the Renaissance Festival and forgot to get out of character.

 

 

But if you love your wife in ways that she feels loved, if you sacrifice your pride and dignity for her, if you serve her needs, if you meet her emotionally, if you make her feel like a queen and your greatest prize, if you pour all that you can into her happiness, if you learn to communicate your feelings to her when she does thing that hurt and upset you rather than communicating everything she did or does wrong, if you refrain from blame-shifting onto her, if you woe her with kindness rather than force her into submission - you will find her naturally respecting you, honoring you, revering you, kissing your feet, stroking your ego, making you the center of her world, doing all she can to make you happy out of gratitude.