More evidence of Noah's Flood?

[Guest]

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

 

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mark 12:29-31

 

~

 

Well, it took secular governments like England's and the US to abolish slavery. There was nothing in the bible to admonish us against slavery as practiced in the US (yes some slave holders were excessively cruel which the bible would admonish, but the institution was justified in the Book.)

 

The governments were not secular and the anti-slavery movement in America began with Christians (Under-ground railroad was a Christian movement).  

 

The New Testament nowhere instructs folks to "make" slaves thereby validating it as an institution.  

 

It instructs slaves and masters how to live in a time when slavery was a reality.  What hostiles demand from the Bible is historically implausible: that authors like Paul should denounce the institution and encourage revolt!  The Christian movement was extremely small and politically powerless.  The authors had to address the question of slavery situation by situation.  

 

Philemon is a pretty powerful example of the ideal-- that Christian masters should free their Christian slaves.  But that is not always possible; nor would immediate "freedom" always benefit a slave (okay, your free.........now what?  no home, no food etc.).  The Bible is extremely practical.

 

Nor can there be a distinction between secular and religious ethics at this point in time.  

 

You are naming political entities that had almost 2,000 years of Christian ethics in their making.  It was bred in their bones.  It will take centuries of separation between Church and State before we can talk about "secular" ethics.

 

Jerry I respect your knowledge of science but this is not good history my friend.

 

clb

 

~

 

Merry Old England

 

The early abolitionists were mainly motivated by religious beliefs. Many were Quakers who, as religious dissenters, were seen as on the fringe of society and even as dangerous fanatics, because of their belief in equality. They were banned from public office and had little direct influence.

 

Other early abolitionists, like James Ramsey and Granville Sharp, had come to see the injustice of enslavement through individual experiences (in

 

Ramsey's case, when he went on board a slave ship as a doctor and in Sharp's case, when he met an injured former slave).

 

They expressed their opposition in different ways - Sharp through legal means and Ramsey through ministry on the plantations and in his writings. It took a while before such campaigners became aware of each other's experiences. http://abolition.e2bn.org/slavery_56.html

[OldSchool2]

As Paul said:

"There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" -- Galatians 3:28

and ...

"Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.)" -- 1 Corinthians 7:21.

And as for Jerry's "Well, it took secular governments like England's and the US to abolish slavery," the current Queen of England is still the titular head of the Church of England, a title that goes back to Henry VIII. And though the US gov't doesn't have an official state church, it retains "In God we trust" on our currency. Being non-sectarian isn't the same as being "secular".

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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That verse is taken out of context. It is referring to spiritual matters. Not literally "all things" in the world...everywhere... (how would you prove "all things" anyway? lol)

 

LOL, eh? 

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:15-22) "See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  {16} Rejoice evermore.  {17} Pray without ceasing.  {18} In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  {19} Quench not the Spirit.  {20} Despise not prophesyings.  {21} Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  {22} Abstain from all appearance of evil."

 

 

Then you extrapolate the verse in your mind....to Ludicrousness, and then ask.........To all things in the World? 

 

Why didn't you go "all out" and say......Not literally "all things" in the Universe.....everywhere....(how would you prove "all things" in the Universe anyway? lol)    Right?

 

So what you're saying is just test/prove, Prophecy?  But with everything else you don't need to....just go ahead and roll with it?  Or does Prophecy mean Scripture in total?  So what is most likely meant here is TEST or PROVE all things according to the WORD. 

 

To Test or Prove something you have to have SOMETHING to TEST against. 

 

So let me ask you something........ What are you going to Test the WORD against?   Maybe....

 

What peoples say/do?  What they Tell You to do?  What they tell you is True?

 

 

Actually....this really boils down to just Common Sense.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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The RCC doesn't exist until we have something alternate to it.

 

Please explain this, I haven't the first clue what this means?

 

 

All you had was, the Church.  Based on your logic, you would have to say that the Church ceased to exist from....when?  Constantine?  to Luther.

 

The Church is the Body Of Christ.....  It's not a Physical Structure/Organization.  The Church was Born @ Pentecost.  The "Body of Christ" has as much to do with Constantine and the RCC as a Coat hanger has to do with Brain Surgery.

 

Try this Connor, I also challenged Sheniy to do the Same thing,....... Start from the first anti-christ "Type" Nimrod (Where the "Mystery Religions"/false gods were birthed) and track the western leg of those propagating it.  Tell me where they end up?

 

Can you also tell me How many "Official" sun gods Rome was worshiping around the time of Constantine and list their names?

 

Then Type in "Mystery/Mysteries" into a Bible Search, preferably the AKJV, Then list all occurrences and see if they point you somewhere.  Do a Compare and Contrast with Revelation.  Tell me if anything JUMPS out @ you.

 

 

Again, you have not shown me how the Bible teaches heliocentricism or at least clearly discourages the geocentric model.

 

It teaches neither, I already said this a number of times...it's not a science book.

 

 

You read, "all of Scripture is "God-breathed".

 

You're applying Tensor Calculus to a simple Addition problem Connor.

 

All Scripture comes from GOD, (Review: "The Author is GOD" Topic).  Do the People GOD used to Pen his Book give "their" words in the BOOK?  Well obviously.....and they are quite apparent and readily Identified as opposed to when GOD is SPEAKING AND INSTRUCTING.

 

Let me ask you something..... Are you ascribing Prophecy to Men?

 

And this verse keeps coming to mind (and this is not JUST TO YOU).  Hopefully they'll see it and meditate on it, or apply if the shoe fits scenario..... (**Note, I am not calling you a BLIND GUIDE, OK?)

 

(Matthew 23:24) " Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel."

[Sheniy]

 

That verse is taken out of context. It is referring to spiritual matters. Not literally "all things" in the world...everywhere... (how would you prove "all things" anyway? lol)

 

LOL, eh? 

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:15-22) "See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.  {16} Rejoice evermore.  {17} Pray without ceasing.  {18} In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  {19} Quench not the Spirit.  {20} Despise not prophesyings.  {21} Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.  {22} Abstain from all appearance of evil."

 

 

Then you extrapolate the verse in your mind....to Ludicrousness, and then ask.........To all things in the World? 

 

Why didn't you go "all out" and say......Not literally "all things" in the Universe.....everywhere....(how would you prove "all things" in the Universe anyway? lol)    Right?

 

So what you're saying is just test/prove, Prophecy?  But with everything else you don't need to....just go ahead and roll with it?  Or does Prophecy mean Scripture in total?  So what is most likely meant here is TEST or PROVE all things according to the WORD. 

 

To Test or Prove something you have to have SOMETHING to TEST against. 

 

So let me ask you something........ What are you going to Test the WORD against?   Maybe....

 

What peoples say/do?  What they Tell You to do?  What they tell you is True?

 

 

Actually....this really boils down to just Common Sense.

 

 

I...what?    This honestly wasn't the reaction I was expecting.

 

I posted the same verse you did, except in context with the rest of the chapter. Not sure what you disagree with.

 

Let's break it down:

δοκιμάζω (dokimazō)

-to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals

-to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy

Word translated in KJV as prove, in NASB as examine, NIV translates as test.  In other verses in the KJV, it's translated as discern, approvest, did [not] like, alloweth, try, and examine.

 

I looked for the most likely meaning.  What I got was that prophecy should be allowed, but closely examined; keep what is good, discard what is not.  I don't understand how that's wrong.  It seems like good advice, actually, rather than just accepting all prophetic claims (what a mess that would be!)

Makes more sense to me that trying to prove everything, which is...I think what you were saying it meant.  (sorry if I'm wrong.)

 

But prove all things...what?  Prove all things exists?  Prove all things are good?  What exactly do you think this is trying to say? (I'm asking honestly, because your reaction is confusing) 

 

And how does it relate to your point?

 

Question (another one): Do you have some sort of attachment to KJV?  I posted the same verse in whatever translation was set in blueletterbible.com on my browser (I have a bajillion tabs open).  Let me check: It seems it was NASB.  Do you not approve of this translation?  I'm not familiar with the "correct translation of the bible" debate, so please bear with me.  I generally prefer the NIV, but only because I'm more used to it. 

 

******

 

I reread your post, and I think I see where you misunderstood me. 

 

I read this passage as advice on the use of prophecy, but I'm not saying that is the only thing we should test.  The bible isn't silent on this, either.

 

Rev 2:2  test those who call themselves apostles

1 Jn 4:1  test the spirits

2 Cor 3:15 examine yourselves (your faith)

2 Cor 2:9  test obedience

Lam 3:40 Examine our ways and test them

Gal 6:4 Examine your own work

phil 2:15 Prove yourselves blameless and innocent

Jas 1:22  Prove yourselves doers of the word, not hearers only

 

Does this help at all?

 

Try this Connor, I also challenged Sheniy to do the Same thing,....... Start from the first anti-christ "Type" Nimrod (Where the "Mystery Religions"/false gods were birthed) and track the western leg of those propagating it. Tell me where they end up?

Are we allowed to post that here?  I don't wanna get deleted.

 

I studied that a few years back.  It's interesting and enlightening, but I don't see how it's relevant to the argument.  It is referring to the institution of the RCC and not it's people (not all of them, anyway).  You've already said the Church isn't the institution, but the people.  We've said that as well.  It's common ground that we all share. 

 

Why do you keep bringing this stuff up?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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This honestly wasn't the reaction I was expecting.

 

  Keeps you on your toes

 

 

 

What I got was that prophecy should be allowed, but closely examined; keep what is good, discard what is not.

 

Discard Prophecy ??  Say What??  Which Ones?  There is no Prophecy post the Last Verse of Revelation.

 

But prove all things...what?  Prove all things exists?  Prove all things are good?  What exactly do you think this is trying to say?

 

Prove all things that affect you and is in your Sphere.  Now, not ridiculous stuff like... prove my PBJ, Turkey Sandwich or Chair.  Prove things as either TRUE or False.  For Instance...evolution.  Well compare it to what the WORD says.  Each case is different and the depths of research/eval are different.

 

 

Do you have some sort of attachment to KJV?

 

You Betcha!!!  And it is quite APT to my POINT of PROVING!!  See discussion Here:

 

 

I generally prefer the NIV, but only because I'm more used to it.

 

Well make sure you review that attachment above real close then.

 

 

Are we allowed to post that here?

 

Post what, where they end up?  Why not, it's the TRUTH?  And, you best "know your enemy".....because if you don't, you have no chance.

 

 

I studied that a few years back.  It's interesting and enlightening, but I don't see how it's relevant to the argument.

Why do you keep bringing this stuff up?

 

This is more of a Me and Connor Thing. 

 

Rev 2:2  test those who call themselves apostles

1 Jn 4:1  test the spirits

2 Cor 3:15 examine yourselves (your faith)

2 Cor 2:9  test obedience

Lam 3:40 Examine our ways and test them

Gal 6:4 Examine your own work

phil 2:15 Prove yourselves blameless and innocent

Jas 1:22  Prove yourselves doers of the word, not hearers only

 

Yes, same principle as to what I'm speaking of.

[a-seeker]

 

Try this Connor, I also challenged Sheniy to do the Same thing,....... Start from the first anti-christ "Type" Nimrod (Where the "Mystery Religions"/false gods were birthed) and track the western leg of those propagating it.  Tell me where they end up?

 

 

 

I have no idea where you get Nimrod as originator of the false gods—we have one verse in the Bible that has to do with Nimrod, and a lot of non-Biblical tradition.  And I am too tired to follow these rabbit trails. If it is really important then just say what I am supposed to figure out.  But my guess is, it is more conspiracy theories.

 

 

Can you also tell me How many "Official" sun gods Rome was worshiping around the time of Constantine and list their names?

 

 

I see no point to this.  I wish I had not mentioned Constantine—it has triggered some other association which has nothing to do with the topic (see below Enoch’s exegesis).

 

 

Then Type in "Mystery/Mysteries" into a Bible Search, preferably the AKJV, Then list all occurrences and see if they point you somewhere.  Do a Compare and Contrast with Revelation.  Tell me if anything JUMPS out @ you.

 

 

 

I try not to do word searches in English or anything other than the original: there is too much room for interpretation as it is….but to indulge you, I did, and no, nothing jumps out at me remotely relevant to this topic.

 

Again, you have not shown me how the Bible teaches heliocentricism or at least clearly discourages the geocentric model.

 

It teaches neither, I already said this a number of times...it's not a science book.

 

 

 

 

You said the “they” were misreading it, implying that had they read closely, they would see the Bible does not teach geocentricism—you placed the fault on “them”, I am merely defending “them”.

 

You read, "all of Scripture is "God-breathed".

 

You're applying Tensor Calculus to a simple Addition problem Connor.

 

 

 

 

There is no way because I don’t know what Tensor Calculus is.

 

 

All Scripture comes from GOD, (Review: "The Author is GOD" Topic).  Do the People GOD used to Pen his Book give "their" words in the BOOK?  Well obviously.....and they are quite apparent and readily Identified as opposed to when GOD is SPEAKING AND INSTRUCTING.

 

Let me ask you something..... Are you ascribing Prophecy to Men?

 

And this verse keeps coming to mind (and this is not JUST TO YOU).  Hopefully they'll see it and meditate on it, or apply if the shoe fits scenario..... (**Note, I am not calling you a BLIND GUIDE, OK?)

 

 

A lot of things seem to come to mind for you.  Your exegesis is based on association.  Your own psychology makes you think of something which triggers another thought which you force together to produce a theory and then defend it to the death without testing it by any of established methods of exegesis.  Exegesis too is a science; you can’t say, wait, I see a connection that is really cool, and if it is cool, well then God must have intended it.   We can use a recent example:  light reflecting off precious stones in Eden + Satan’s ability to change into an angel of light + the snake in the garden = the snake was Satan.  It is pure association.  So are all the numbers which you get out of the Bible.  

 

clb

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

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I have no idea where you get Nimrod as originator of the false gods—we have one verse in the Bible that has to do with Nimrod, and a lot of non-Biblical tradition.  And I am too tired to follow these rabbit trails. If it is really important then just say what I am supposed to figure out.  But my guess is, it is more conspiracy theories.

 

Well you know what they say....."Ya get what Ya Get then".  It's not an equation it's called research. I've already told you where to start, if you wanna close your eyes to it.....fine with me.  And I could care less what label you put on it.

 

 

I see no point to this.  I wish I had not mentioned Constantine—it has triggered some other association which has nothing to do with the topic

 

R-U Kiddin me?   Well there Connor......YOU'RE WHOLE POINT WAS BASED ON THE "CHURCH" and what the "Church" did in association with the ridiculous model.  See the Relevancy 

 

 

I try not to do word searches in English or anything other than the original: there is too much room for interpretation as it is….but to indulge you, I did, and no, nothing jumps out at me remotely relevant to this topic.

 

 

Well you know what they say:  You can lead a horse to water, but.....

 

 

You said the “they” were misreading it, implying that had they read closely, they would see the Bible does not teach geocentricism—you placed the fault on “them”, I am merely defending “them”.

 

Yes, I was referring to "Christian Scientists" term that Sheniy said.  I should have stopped her and asked her to clarify but I was Lazy and didn't.  And Boy am I paying the price for it over many posts LOL.

 

So if "they" (Sheniy's Christian Scientists) whoever they are LOL, would have read it closely.....I'm saying that that wouldn't have reached a conclusion on either A or B.

 

Who are you defending?   LOL

 

 

There is no way because I don’t know what Tensor Calculus is.

 

Laughing Out Loud Connor.  Touche.   It was just an analogy like putting the wrong emPHAsis on the wrong syLLAble.

 

 

A lot of things seem to come to mind for you.

 

Yes, it's quite an adventure in there IMHO LOL

 

 

Your exegesis is based on association.  AND this.......(see below Enoch’s exegesis).

 

 

So you're attacking my somewhat "Primitive" and rather "Pedestrian" in your eyes, Exegesis Skills??  Pot meet Kettle.

 

Have you heard of this.....(Matthew 7:5) " Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

 

Lets here from an Expert on the Subject in Reference to "Your" EXEGESIS SKILLS:  From Shiloh 357.....

 

"This is why your “exegesis” should not be taken seriously.   There is nothing choppy or inconsistent at all.   God is not bound by some set of rules an arrogant little man says He has to follow in order to be “consistent” in anyone’s eyes.  God is not limited to the logical box you seek to put Him in.   My assessment of your poor exegetical skills is more than warranted."

 

"intelligent exegesis and not the hermeneutic trainwreck you are subscribing to".

 

"I have seen your "exegesis" first hand and frankly, it's not really exegesis at all."

 

"You don't have a very firm grasp on how the Bible is functioning.  You may grasp how some scholars approach the text, but you don't know much at all about how the Bible is functioning."

[Sheniy]

 

I'm getting tired of the quote boxes, so I'm just leaving one so you still get tagged. Other that that, quotes by you are in purple.

 

 

Discard Prophecy ??  Say What??  Which Ones?  There is no Prophecy post the Last Verse of Revelation.

 

Some believe that's not true.  There is biblical support for prophecy in churches, not major scriptural ones like what we see in the bible.  I'm assuming you disagree.  That's fine.  It's a discussion for another day, and I don't want to rabbit trail this further.

 

In  1 Thessalonians 5:20 (KJV) it says "Despise not prophesyings."  At that time, people would get up and say "thus sayeth the Lord!" (except not in english lol).  This was saying that prophetic utterances are from God, but that they should be examined and tested.  People could 'prophesy' crazy stuff if they were left unchecked.

 

At least, that's my take based on context.

 

 

Prove all things that affect you and is in your Sphere.  Now, not ridiculous stuff like... prove my PBJ, Turkey Sandwich or Chair.  Prove things as either TRUE or False.  For Instance...evolution.  Well compare it to what the WORD says.  Each case is different and the depths of research/eval are different.

 

Okay, thanks for explaining.  It makes more sense.  However, I think you're reading that into the text.  My opinion.

 

 

You Betcha!!!  And it is quite APT to my POINT of PROVING!!  See discussion Here:

 

Great.  I really don't like KJV. I'd rather read a translation I don't have to translate.  And you're going to use this to dismiss anything I say that you disagree with.  Oy.

 

I didn't see NASB on the list of suspicious translations.  I think I switched to that one because I saw someone here say it was a good version.  Shiloh maybe?  I can't remember.

 

And is this why you dismiss Strong's?  Or is there a different reason for that?  I think it's based on KJV...

 

 

This is more of a Me and Connor Thing.

 

You mentioned me by name.  I sorta figured I was invited, especially since you challenged me, as well.  My mistake.

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Some believe that's not true.  There is biblical support for prophecy in churches, not major scriptural ones like what we see in the bible.  I'm assuming you disagree.  That's fine.  It's a discussion for another day, and I don't want to rabbit trail this further.

 

(Revelation 22:18) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

 

Yes...but this one Stops that notion right in it's tracks, IMHO.  But yes, another day.

 

 

Great.  I really don't like KJV. I'd rather read a translation I don't have to translate.  And you're going to use this to dismiss anything I say that you disagree with.  Oy.

 

It's not based on what we like.  I won't dismiss you.  And You have been admonished not just by my opinion but by substance. This a very serious issue Sheniy and lines up with his tactics....he's got no new tricks.  SEE: Genesis 3.

 

 

I'd have to say.....when I was SAVED: This was Step One....I researched it till there was nothing left on the wick x 10^{000000000000000000000----->}

 

 

I didn't see NASB on the list of suspicious translations.

 

Update...it's on the List.  However, I personally did not track this down because I don't use anything else besides the AKJV.  It should be easy to find out....check the codices and source documents.

 

 

And is this why you dismiss Strong's?  Or is there a different reason for that?

 

No, I don't dismiss Strong's @ all personally.  Are you referring back to that Serpent thing? lol  Small potatoes in the Grand Scheme...I should have never brought it up     LOL

 

 

You mentioned me by name.  I sorta figured I was invited, especially since you challenged me, as well.  My mistake.

 

No, it was my mistake.

 

No worries