Does God make mistakes?

[other one]

 

 

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

We need to examine the nature—even the mechanics—of what it means to “be saved”.  Salvation is from the sin within us; it is obtained by participation in the death and life of Jesus.  EVERYONE admitted into heaven must participate in this mystical union, including the patriarchs.  There is no other way to be saved.  To say that people of the O.C. were saved by trusting God means that the sin within them was purged by that trust, apart from Christ.  To say that they kept the Law is to say that they kept it perfectly, or well enough (merited salvation).  If that were possible, then there would be no reason for Christ—God does not change His mind in the Bible.  It always was Christ that saved and always will be.   But if that is the case, how should the patriarchs come to know Christ?  

 

I am not sure from where in Scripture you derive this enormous negative with such confidence:

 

No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

clb

 

They were under a different covenant.  Those who lived before Jesus were given a method of obtaining eternal life.  They had to trust in Jehovah God, and they showed that faith by becoming circumcised and keeping the law to the best of their ability.  Under the Old Testament, if you messed up, an animal had to die to allow you to be forgiven for that sin.  It was a temporary system that would remain in effect until Jesus would come and die on a cross for our sins.  Once Jesus came and paid the penalty for our sins, we entered into a new covenant.  Under this covenant, we trust in Jesus in order to be saved.  When we sin, we confess our sins directly to God, and we are forgiven.  There is no more Levitical priesthood.  Acts makes it clear that under the New Covenant, there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the door to the sheepfold.  There is no other way to gain entrance.  Jesus is the one who reconciles us to right relationship to God the Father.  Without him, there is no way of salvation.  Under the OT, failure to be circumcised and keep the law meant you were not saved and hell bound.  Under the NT, failure to put your trust in Jesus Christ means you are not saved and hell bound.  To reject Jesus is to reject the Father, because when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.  They are one and the same God. 

 

can you show me the scripture that says the old covenant offered eternal life??

[a-seeker]

 

 

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

We need to examine the nature—even the mechanics—of what it means to “be saved”.  Salvation is from the sin within us; it is obtained by participation in the death and life of Jesus.  EVERYONE admitted into heaven must participate in this mystical union, including the patriarchs.  There is no other way to be saved.  To say that people of the O.C. were saved by trusting God means that the sin within them was purged by that trust, apart from Christ.  To say that they kept the Law is to say that they kept it perfectly, or well enough (merited salvation).  If that were possible, then there would be no reason for Christ—God does not change His mind in the Bible.  It always was Christ that saved and always will be.   But if that is the case, how should the patriarchs come to know Christ?  

 

I am not sure from where in Scripture you derive this enormous negative with such confidence:

 

No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

clb

 

They were under a different covenant.  Those who lived before Jesus were given a method of obtaining eternal life.  They had to trust in Jehovah God, and they showed that faith by becoming circumcised and keeping the law to the best of their ability.  Under the Old Testament, if you messed up, an animal had to die to allow you to be forgiven for that sin.  It was a temporary system that would remain in effect until Jesus would come and die on a cross for our sins.  Once Jesus came and paid the penalty for our sins, we entered into a new covenant.  Under this covenant, we trust in Jesus in order to be saved.  When we sin, we confess our sins directly to God, and we are forgiven.  There is no more Levitical priesthood.  Acts makes it clear that under the New Covenant, there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the door to the sheepfold.  There is no other way to gain entrance.  Jesus is the one who reconciles us to right relationship to God the Father.  Without him, there is no way of salvation.  Under the OT, failure to be circumcised and keep the law meant you were not saved and hell bound.  Under the NT, failure to put your trust in Jesus Christ means you are not saved and hell bound.  To reject Jesus is to reject the Father, because when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.  They are one and the same God. 

 

This is dispensationalism, right? I have no doubt that I misunderstand that doctrine, but from what I do understand, I would have to reject it.  Hebrews as well as Paul make it perfectly clear that the old sacrificial system did NOT work, not even for the best of our OT.  If it had worked, then there would be no reason for Christ; they were not given 'a method' of obtaining eternal life; as if there were a smorgasbord of 'methods' and God likes 'variety'.  If the OT figures are to be saved, they too will be saved by Jesus and by no other means; I am not saying that the faith of Abraham in Gen 15 was impotent--He trusted in God and therefore was counted as righteous--but ultimately he trusted in teh God who raised Jesus from the dead, and it is that event and that event alone in which ours and everyone's salvation lies.

 

clb

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

Under the Old Covenant, people were saved because they trusted God, kept the law, and looked forward to a time when the Savior would come to earth and die for their sins.  Under the New Covenant, we know who the Savior is, Jesus Christ, and we are saved as a result of faith in him.  As such, the patriarchs, and kings that you were speaking of ConnerLiamBrown, are saved because they kept the law by faith, but nobody during this time period will be saved unless they are trusting Christ Jesus in this life.  No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

We need to examine the nature—even the mechanics—of what it means to “be saved”.  Salvation is from the sin within us; it is obtained by participation in the death and life of Jesus.  EVERYONE admitted into heaven must participate in this mystical union, including the patriarchs.  There is no other way to be saved.  To say that people of the O.C. were saved by trusting God means that the sin within them was purged by that trust, apart from Christ.  To say that they kept the Law is to say that they kept it perfectly, or well enough (merited salvation).  If that were possible, then there would be no reason for Christ—God does not change His mind in the Bible.  It always was Christ that saved and always will be.   But if that is the case, how should the patriarchs come to know Christ?  

 

I am not sure from where in Scripture you derive this enormous negative with such confidence:

 

No, they will not have an opportunity to get saved after death. 

 

 

 

clb

 

They were under a different covenant.  Those who lived before Jesus were given a method of obtaining eternal life.  They had to trust in Jehovah God, and they showed that faith by becoming circumcised and keeping the law to the best of their ability.  Under the Old Testament, if you messed up, an animal had to die to allow you to be forgiven for that sin.  It was a temporary system that would remain in effect until Jesus would come and die on a cross for our sins.  Once Jesus came and paid the penalty for our sins, we entered into a new covenant.  Under this covenant, we trust in Jesus in order to be saved.  When we sin, we confess our sins directly to God, and we are forgiven.  There is no more Levitical priesthood.  Acts makes it clear that under the New Covenant, there is no other name given under heaven whereby we must be saved, other than Jesus Christ.  Jesus is the door to the sheepfold.  There is no other way to gain entrance.  Jesus is the one who reconciles us to right relationship to God the Father.  Without him, there is no way of salvation.  Under the OT, failure to be circumcised and keep the law meant you were not saved and hell bound.  Under the NT, failure to put your trust in Jesus Christ means you are not saved and hell bound.  To reject Jesus is to reject the Father, because when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.  They are one and the same God. 

 

can you show me the scripture that says the old covenant offered eternal life??

 

Indeed, "eternal life" isn't even an OT concept.  Even in Isaiah's time the dead were considered to reside in sheol, the righteous and the unrighteous.  The hope of a general resurrection does not spring up until after the OT.

 

The "life" which the OT covenant offered was a good life here in the now, and especially in the Promised Land.  To die an old age with posterity within the boundaries of the land was the ultimate blessing which obedience to the Law offered.

 

 

clb

[Guest Butero]

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Bopeep!

      Definitely not.....we make all the mistakes that greived Him because He gave us free will...........God is Perfect & cannot make mistakes

                                                                                                                                                                            With love-in Christ,Kwik

[a-seeker]

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

 

So in that we agree.

 

Now Paul says that one day "every tongue will confess...Christ is Lord".  Does every tongue include those of the patriarchs and David and the rest?  Or will there be two classes of people in heaven, those who only know God as a single entity, or those who also know Him as Triune?  Again, will Abraham be denied the experience of that relationship, next to which Paul considered all things as 'rubbish' (Phil 3.8)?

 

You talk of 'being saved'.  But salvation is not simply a place--it is a relationship, unblemished, with God.  Now that either means with Christ or nor with Christ.  You see the problem?  Either the patriarchs will or will not know Christ.  If they will, how?  It would have to be after death, which opens the door to the question of post-mortem opportunities.

 

clb

[educatexan]

And he [Abraham] believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him as righteousness.  Genesis 15:6

[Donibm]

It's hard to say. Some may say that he made a mistake when he allowed Satan to get up to mischief and screw everything up in the first place. Others would say that it's all part of his grand plan.

I daren't really have an opinion, but I will say this - if he has made any mistakes you can definitely be sure that he has learned from them!

 

Hard to say?

 

OMG I can't believe some of the things I read in these threads.

[Donibm]

What do you think?

 

Absolutely not.

 

God is without repentance.  He knows the end from the beginning.  Sure, we grieve Him to certain measure of "regret" as we understand the word, but not mistakes.

 

For anyone to suggest that its "hard to say" or it depends doen't know God.  I'm sorry, but such people really don't spend time with Him.  That, to me, is evidence of a lacking prayer life, a lack in studying the Word, and a lack of close relationship to know His character.

 

Absolutely not does god make mistakes.

 

You think that God made a "mistake" just because the world is so jacked up?  But I see a god who TOLD US that the world would be just like this, and get worst (birthpains).  so to me, it is confirmation that His word is true.

 

You think that God made a mistake with Satan?  LOL  You think He didn't know that He'd suffer and die long before He even created the angels ... and how many gazzilion years did they exist before our solar system?

 

Did He make a mistake because someone is born cripple?

 

Are we to live in a perfect world with no sin, death, or violence?  God never told us that we would in this life.  In fact, it is HIM who has taught us the difference between right and wrong, and it is HIS prophecies that told us about these last and evil days.

 

What has God repented of?

 

When has He ever been caught off gaurd?

 

When has He ever said "opps"?

 

When has he ever said, "well, I didn't know you'd ..."?

 

Everything.  Everything, is going exactly as He said it would.  Just becase He knows the wickedness will come, and said it would, doesnt' mean He is making it turn that way or is surprized by any of it.

 

 

No.  God makes absolutely ZERO mistakes.  Woe to my soul if I ever charge God with sin or traits that belong to the flesh.  Woe to any man who does.

 

 

NOTE: I always type "you" but I don't mean you specifically.  I type, knowing I have more than one person reading, so my "you" is almost always general, so don't take it personally.  I've not read your following comments, or anyone elses other than a first responder, who I've already responded to.

 

 

A great falling away indeed.  Never have I seen such weak Christains.  In all my years, I've never seen such callous behavior, distortions or confusion until joining online threads.

[other one]

 

What do you think?

 

Absolutely not.

 

God is without repentance.  He knows the end from the beginning.

 

Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

KJV