Does God make mistakes?

[Atwood]

no

[Adhemar]

God the Father is black and white, absolute.  Knowledge of God the Father is power.  God doesn't cut corners.  Any honorable man can be abused by those who know his code of honor.  Witches, Sorcerers, and even the Devil can use God the Father against himself if they have knowledge of him and how he works.   

 

Moloch worship involved passing children through the fire.  Men would take children anywhere from newborns to preteens, and sacrifice them to Moloch.  Moloch was popular, and it was difficult to stomp it out from Israel in the old testament.  It was so popular that even Carthage was sacrificing their children as they fought Rome.  Sacrificing a child is no easy thing.  There must have been a pay off.  It's too bad that Moloch has comeback in the form of abortion. 

 

God is absolute. 

[Guest Butero]

 

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

 

So in that we agree.

 

Now Paul says that one day "every tongue will confess...Christ is Lord".  Does every tongue include those of the patriarchs and David and the rest?  Or will there be two classes of people in heaven, those who only know God as a single entity, or those who also know Him as Triune?  Again, will Abraham be denied the experience of that relationship, next to which Paul considered all things as 'rubbish' (Phil 3.8)?

 

You talk of 'being saved'.  But salvation is not simply a place--it is a relationship, unblemished, with God.  Now that either means with Christ or nor with Christ.  You see the problem?  Either the patriarchs will or will not know Christ.  If they will, how?  It would have to be after death, which opens the door to the question of post-mortem opportunities.

 

clb

 

Everyone, including the lost will one day have to bow down to Christ and confess he is Lord.  That means everyone.  The thing is, the Bible is revealing two covenants.  In reality, you could say it reveals more than two covenants, as it also discusses those who lived before the law of Moses was given.  You have those before the law, and God dealt with them in one way.  Then you have those who lived from the time the law of Moses was given till the cross.  God dealt with them in another way.  Now you have those living during the time that runs from the cross to the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Then you have those living during the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Finally, you have a new heaven and a new earth.  We have to play by God's rules based on the covenant we are under.  Today, the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  Those living before the cross were saved because they looked forward to the cross, and obeyed the law of Moses to the best of their ability.  When they failed, an animal had to die. 

 

Now comes a kind of mystery.  Jesus has always existed, and those who lived under the law of Moses did know Jesus.  How did they know him?  They knew Jehovah.  Jesus and the Father are one.  Let me see if I can explain this in another way.  Notice what the Bible says about the creation of man. 

 

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  Gen. 1:27

 

This was before we see Eve.  How can this be?  Because Eve was created with Adam, because she was part of him.  She was his rib.  When God created Eve, he literally took a part of Adam and fashioned her from it.  That is why when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh.  The carnal way of looking at this is to relate it all to the act of sex, but there is a spiritual side to it.  A part of man was missing, but when he marries, it is restored.  The man and the woman are one flesh because the woman came from the man. 

 

Jesus is God, and always has been God.  He came to earth and was born of a woman, and from that time forward, we know God as Jesus Christ.  He has always existed as part of God, but was not known as Jesus Christ to those under the law.  He was known as Jehovah, I Am or God, but not as Jesus, yet to know God was to know Jesus.  Those living under the Old Covenant make it to heaven because they followed the law by faith in the true and living God.  Those under the New Covenant make it to heaven because they trust in Jesus.  There is nothing in scripture that indicates anyone has a chance of getting saved after they die. 

[Guest Butero]

 

 

What do you think?

 

Absolutely not.

 

God is without repentance.  He knows the end from the beginning.

 

Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

KJV

 

God speaks to us in a way where we can understand.  There is no way he didn't know what mankind would do after he created them, just as there is no way he didn't know that he was going to save mankind through Noah and his family.  What are we supposed to think happened here?  God made a mistake creating man.  Man let him down by doing things he never anticipated and now he is sorry he made man in the first place.  Then lo and behold, he notices one man worthy of living named Noah, and on the spur of the moment, he decides he isn't sorry he created man.  He wants to save him, so he uses Noah and his family. 

 

This is yet another example of serving a God who tries to do good things.  He means well, but he makes mistakes.  It reminds me of George Burns in the movie "Oh God."  I just don't believe that is possible.  God gives us a description of everything that is going to happen in the future in Revelation.  He goes so far as to even tell us everything the devil is going to do.  He knows about the anti-Christ.  He knows about the beast system.  He knows about Armageddon, and exactly how Satan will act.  He knows all of this, and there is nothing the devil can do about it, but he didn't know about what man would do, and he didn't know what Lucifer would do.  That is supposed to make sense? 

[a-seeker]

 

 

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

 

So in that we agree.

 

Now Paul says that one day "every tongue will confess...Christ is Lord".  Does every tongue include those of the patriarchs and David and the rest?  Or will there be two classes of people in heaven, those who only know God as a single entity, or those who also know Him as Triune?  Again, will Abraham be denied the experience of that relationship, next to which Paul considered all things as 'rubbish' (Phil 3.8)?

 

You talk of 'being saved'.  But salvation is not simply a place--it is a relationship, unblemished, with God.  Now that either means with Christ or nor with Christ.  You see the problem?  Either the patriarchs will or will not know Christ.  If they will, how?  It would have to be after death, which opens the door to the question of post-mortem opportunities.

 

clb

 

Everyone, including the lost will one day have to bow down to Christ and confess he is Lord.  That means everyone.  The thing is, the Bible is revealing two covenants.  In reality, you could say it reveals more than two covenants, as it also discusses those who lived before the law of Moses was given.  You have those before the law, and God dealt with them in one way.  Then you have those who lived from the time the law of Moses was given till the cross.  God dealt with them in another way.  Now you have those living during the time that runs from the cross to the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Then you have those living during the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Finally, you have a new heaven and a new earth.  We have to play by God's rules based on the covenant we are under.  Today, the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  Those living before the cross were saved because they looked forward to the cross, and obeyed the law of Moses to the best of their ability.  When they failed, an animal had to die. 

 

Now comes a kind of mystery.  Jesus has always existed, and those who lived under the law of Moses did know Jesus.  How did they know him?  They knew Jehovah.  Jesus and the Father are one.  Let me see if I can explain this in another way.  Notice what the Bible says about the creation of man. 

 

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  Gen. 1:27

 

This was before we see Eve.  How can this be?  Because Eve was created with Adam, because she was part of him.  She was his rib.  When God created Eve, he literally took a part of Adam and fashioned her from it.  That is why when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh.  The carnal way of looking at this is to relate it all to the act of sex, but there is a spiritual side to it.  A part of man was missing, but when he marries, it is restored.  The man and the woman are one flesh because the woman came from the man. 

 

Jesus is God, and always has been God.  He came to earth and was born of a woman, and from that time forward, we know God as Jesus Christ.  He has always existed as part of God, but was not known as Jesus Christ to those under the law.  He was known as Jehovah, I Am or God, but not as Jesus, yet to know God was to know Jesus.  Those living under the Old Covenant make it to heaven because they followed the law by faith in the true and living God.  Those under the New Covenant make it to heaven because they trust in Jesus.  There is nothing in scripture that indicates anyone has a chance of getting saved after they die. 

 

I think we are getting away from the point that started this tangent--the possibility of post-mortem opportunities to meet and accept Christ as Lord.  My central argument is that persons who died without knowing the grand plan will meet Christ--Abraham did not know Christ, nor Moses nor Joshua nor David etc. etc.  I believe they will, either between this life and the next (intermediate consciousness) or on the day of resurrection.  By extension, is it contrary to Scripture that other persons (people who lived in various parts of the world unknown to the canonical world) would be granted the same opportunity.  That was the point, not a discussion on dispensationalism.

 

clb

[Guest Butero]

 

 

 

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

 

So in that we agree.

 

Now Paul says that one day "every tongue will confess...Christ is Lord".  Does every tongue include those of the patriarchs and David and the rest?  Or will there be two classes of people in heaven, those who only know God as a single entity, or those who also know Him as Triune?  Again, will Abraham be denied the experience of that relationship, next to which Paul considered all things as 'rubbish' (Phil 3.8)?

 

You talk of 'being saved'.  But salvation is not simply a place--it is a relationship, unblemished, with God.  Now that either means with Christ or nor with Christ.  You see the problem?  Either the patriarchs will or will not know Christ.  If they will, how?  It would have to be after death, which opens the door to the question of post-mortem opportunities.

 

clb

 

Everyone, including the lost will one day have to bow down to Christ and confess he is Lord.  That means everyone.  The thing is, the Bible is revealing two covenants.  In reality, you could say it reveals more than two covenants, as it also discusses those who lived before the law of Moses was given.  You have those before the law, and God dealt with them in one way.  Then you have those who lived from the time the law of Moses was given till the cross.  God dealt with them in another way.  Now you have those living during the time that runs from the cross to the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Then you have those living during the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Finally, you have a new heaven and a new earth.  We have to play by God's rules based on the covenant we are under.  Today, the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  Those living before the cross were saved because they looked forward to the cross, and obeyed the law of Moses to the best of their ability.  When they failed, an animal had to die. 

 

Now comes a kind of mystery.  Jesus has always existed, and those who lived under the law of Moses did know Jesus.  How did they know him?  They knew Jehovah.  Jesus and the Father are one.  Let me see if I can explain this in another way.  Notice what the Bible says about the creation of man. 

 

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  Gen. 1:27

 

This was before we see Eve.  How can this be?  Because Eve was created with Adam, because she was part of him.  She was his rib.  When God created Eve, he literally took a part of Adam and fashioned her from it.  That is why when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh.  The carnal way of looking at this is to relate it all to the act of sex, but there is a spiritual side to it.  A part of man was missing, but when he marries, it is restored.  The man and the woman are one flesh because the woman came from the man. 

 

Jesus is God, and always has been God.  He came to earth and was born of a woman, and from that time forward, we know God as Jesus Christ.  He has always existed as part of God, but was not known as Jesus Christ to those under the law.  He was known as Jehovah, I Am or God, but not as Jesus, yet to know God was to know Jesus.  Those living under the Old Covenant make it to heaven because they followed the law by faith in the true and living God.  Those under the New Covenant make it to heaven because they trust in Jesus.  There is nothing in scripture that indicates anyone has a chance of getting saved after they die. 

 

I think we are getting away from the point that started this tangent--the possibility of post-mortem opportunities to meet and accept Christ as Lord.  My central argument is that persons who died without knowing the grand plan will meet Christ--Abraham did not know Christ, nor Moses nor Joshua nor David etc. etc.  I believe they will, either between this life and the next (intermediate consciousness) or on the day of resurrection.  By extension, is it contrary to Scripture that other persons (people who lived in various parts of the world unknown to the canonical world) would be granted the same opportunity.  That was the point, not a discussion on dispensationalism.

 

clb

 

I didn't get away from that point.  You are just not understanding me.  I am saying those people living under the law did know Jesus, as they knew God.  Jesus himself stated that "before Abraham was, I am."  I do not believe anyone has a chance to be saved after they die. 

[Donibm]

 

 

What do you think?

 

Absolutely not.

 

God is without repentance.  He knows the end from the beginning.

 

Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

KJV

 

 

I know the Scripture well.  :-)

 

But kwiphilly already said it perfectly.  We do things that GRIEVE Him, but He knows the end from the beginning.  He has repented of nothing (in the context that He made some sort of mistake).

[other one]

That isn't what I get from reading scripture when I just let the words speak to me.

What do you think?

Absolutely not.

God is without repentance. He knows the end from the beginning.

Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

KJV

I know the Scripture well. :-)

But kwiphilly already said it perfectly. We do things that GRIEVE Him, but He knows the end from the beginning. He has repented of nothing (in the context that He made some sort of mistake).

[Donibm]

 

 

 

That isn't what I get from reading scripture when I just let the words speak to me.

 

What do you think?

Absolutely not.

God is without repentance. He knows the end from the beginning.

Gen 6:6-7

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

KJV

I know the Scripture well. :-)

But kwiphilly already said it perfectly. We do things that GRIEVE Him, but He knows the end from the beginning. He has repented of nothing (in the context that He made some sort of mistake).

 

 

 

Pray about it.

 

After all, the only grievance God is experiencing is due to OUR actions as men.  Yes ... or no?  That is Scripture.  Have you ever read God simply having a "bad day"?  Have you ever read how He is grieved by angels?  Me either.  So, the only thing that seems to grieve and upset and anger Him, is mankind.

 

He knows the end from the beginning.  That is also Scripture: Isaiah 46:10.  I mean, if someone already knows everything even before the earth was created, over a gazziblillion quadertripillion (yes, I'm making up those words because ETERNITY cannot be explained) years prior, well, how can they make a mistake or regret it ... understanding and knowing perfectly how they will feel as if the moment was already here?  One cannot be omniscience if they make a mistake or regret their action.

 

Of course a righteous and holy God could BE repented.  BE grieved.  Even the Holy Spirit is clearly grieved by the saints ... but no one applies that Scripture in these sort of dialogs.  Does that mean that the Holy Spirit doesn't know before it happens?  Of course not!  The passages simply show a God of ... emotions (if I dare call it that).  After all, we are made in HIS image and likeness.  We experience certain 'emotions' and feelings because He does.

 

That is why I see what I read the Scriptures.  The CHARACTER of God is not as difficult to understand as people think.  I think its the little bit of time they spend with Him to know Him ... or that they have never had the opportunity to be discipled, and unfortunately, not properly Churched either.  But to me, it's all so very simple and easy to understand (and I profess to be no "super Christian".  I simply love the Truth of Gods Word and His character, and I'm careful to not forget about HIM in the process of every other beautiful thing about Him).

[a-seeker]

 

 

 

 

I never claimed that the OT system saved anyone.  It was only a temporary system God put in place until the Savior would come and die on a cross.  If Jesus didn't ever come and die, all those sacrifices made by the priests would have been in vain.  People living in OT times were saved by faith in the coming Messiah.  They knew the Father, so they knew Jesus, as Jesus and the Father are one.  Jesus said that before Abraham was, "I am."  People were saved because they had faith in God, and they followed his instructions to obtain forgiveness for sins. 

 

Today, we are under a different covenant.  We no longer have the Levitical Priesthood, so when we sin, we confess our sins to the Father.  We are saved because we put our faith in Jesus Christ.  Faith in Christ reconciles us to right relationship with the Father, so we have access to his throne.  If we don't accept Jesus, we have no access.  It is not possible to reject Jesus or to not know Jesus in this life, and become saved after we die. 

 

So in that we agree.

 

Now Paul says that one day "every tongue will confess...Christ is Lord".  Does every tongue include those of the patriarchs and David and the rest?  Or will there be two classes of people in heaven, those who only know God as a single entity, or those who also know Him as Triune?  Again, will Abraham be denied the experience of that relationship, next to which Paul considered all things as 'rubbish' (Phil 3.8)?

 

You talk of 'being saved'.  But salvation is not simply a place--it is a relationship, unblemished, with God.  Now that either means with Christ or nor with Christ.  You see the problem?  Either the patriarchs will or will not know Christ.  If they will, how?  It would have to be after death, which opens the door to the question of post-mortem opportunities.

 

clb

 

Everyone, including the lost will one day have to bow down to Christ and confess he is Lord.  That means everyone.  The thing is, the Bible is revealing two covenants.  In reality, you could say it reveals more than two covenants, as it also discusses those who lived before the law of Moses was given.  You have those before the law, and God dealt with them in one way.  Then you have those who lived from the time the law of Moses was given till the cross.  God dealt with them in another way.  Now you have those living during the time that runs from the cross to the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Then you have those living during the millennial reign of Christ.  God deals with them in a certain way.  Finally, you have a new heaven and a new earth.  We have to play by God's rules based on the covenant we are under.  Today, the only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ.  Those living before the cross were saved because they looked forward to the cross, and obeyed the law of Moses to the best of their ability.  When they failed, an animal had to die. 

 

Now comes a kind of mystery.  Jesus has always existed, and those who lived under the law of Moses did know Jesus.  How did they know him?  They knew Jehovah.  Jesus and the Father are one.  Let me see if I can explain this in another way.  Notice what the Bible says about the creation of man. 

 

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  Gen. 1:27

 

This was before we see Eve.  How can this be?  Because Eve was created with Adam, because she was part of him.  She was his rib.  When God created Eve, he literally took a part of Adam and fashioned her from it.  That is why when a man and woman marry, they become one flesh.  The carnal way of looking at this is to relate it all to the act of sex, but there is a spiritual side to it.  A part of man was missing, but when he marries, it is restored.  The man and the woman are one flesh because the woman came from the man. 

 

Jesus is God, and always has been God.  He came to earth and was born of a woman, and from that time forward, we know God as Jesus Christ.  He has always existed as part of God, but was not known as Jesus Christ to those under the law.  He was known as Jehovah, I Am or God, but not as Jesus, yet to know God was to know Jesus.  Those living under the Old Covenant make it to heaven because they followed the law by faith in the true and living God.  Those under the New Covenant make it to heaven because they trust in Jesus.  There is nothing in scripture that indicates anyone has a chance of getting saved after they die. 

 

I think we are getting away from the point that started this tangent--the possibility of post-mortem opportunities to meet and accept Christ as Lord.  My central argument is that persons who died without knowing the grand plan will meet Christ--Abraham did not know Christ, nor Moses nor Joshua nor David etc. etc.  I believe they will, either between this life and the next (intermediate consciousness) or on the day of resurrection.  By extension, is it contrary to Scripture that other persons (people who lived in various parts of the world unknown to the canonical world) would be granted the same opportunity.  That was the point, not a discussion on dispensationalism.

 

clb

 

I didn't get away from that point.  You are just not understanding me.  I am saying those people living under the law did know Jesus, as they knew God.  Jesus himself stated that "before Abraham was, I am."  I do not believe anyone has a chance to be saved after they die. 

 

 

I see, sort of...a couple questions

 

1) why do you not believe in opportunities post-mortem?

 

2) I take it you do not mean that the Patriarchs knew Christ in the same way that we did--of course they believed in God, and at points in their history, conceived Him as Father.  But never as triune: theirs was a completely monotheistic theology.  Nor were they given prevision of the Incarnation or the passion.  Nor did they ever suspect that the animal sacrifices were mere symbols pointing to a future sacrifice....?  God reckoned their trust in Him and, unbeknownst to them, extended it to Christ...right?

 

3) assuming 2) is right, will the patriarchs ever come to know Christ directly, as we do?  Will the concluding chapter to their story ever be told them--about the incarnation and the atoning sacrifice and resurrection and how the animal sacrifices did not actually atone?  Or will two classes occupy heaven--persons who know Christ directly, and those who know Him (if we can even call this "knowing") indirectly, or obliquely?  Hypothetically, if Abraham and I were to sit down in heaven, could we have a conversation about a person named Jesus of Nazareth who was God incarnate and died and was raised....or would ABraham stare at me blankly and then say, "Who?"

 

clb