Life or Death?

[Guest hopeonlyinChrist]

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist, and I wonder how come most Christians believe after death a person's soul lives on in heaven, hell, "Abraham's bosom", or some other place. Solomon, the wisest man ever to walk this earth, next to our Lord, of course, plainly states in Ecc.9:5 that the dead know not anything.

Fellow Christians, this is an extremely important doctrinal issue, and your position on this is not consistent or logical.

[Dad Ernie]

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist, and I wonder how come most Christians believe after death a person's soul lives on in heaven, hell, "Abraham's bosom", or some other place. Solomon, the wisest man ever to walk this earth, next to our Lord, of course, plainly states in Ecc.9:5 that the dead know not anything.

Fellow Christians, this is an extremely important doctrinal issue, and your position on this is not consistent or logical..

You are omitting the part about the beast's spirit descends while the human spirit/soul goes to be with God.

Hey, HopeOnlyInChrist, I don't really consider this to be an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT DOCTRINAL ISSUE, but one that is very divisive and if you are here only to "divide", then your question is out of line. The SDAs have a hard enough time with their "sabbath doctrine", don't make it any worse by insisting this point is important.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[nebula]

I wonder how come most Christians believe after death a person's soul lives on in heaven, hell, "Abraham's bosom", or some other place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you believe Jesus was speaking about in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazerus when he mentioned their souls being taken to different places after they died - the rich man to the place of torment and Lazerus to "Abraham's Bosom"?

[Guest PistosHuios]

Maybe it went way over my head but i didn't catch what your view is? I'm not really sure what you were trying to emphasize by quoting Solomon. What is it that you suggest if not heaven, hell or the bosom? Did I miss something? If anyone knows the opposing view, I'd like to hear it.

[Botz]

HopeonlyinChrist...

I am a Seventh-Day Adventist, and I wonder how come most Christians believe after death a person's soul lives on in heaven, hell, "Abraham's bosom", or some other place. Solomon, the wisest man ever to walk this earth, next to our Lord, of course, plainly states in Ecc.9:5 that the dead know not anything.

Fellow Christians, this is an extremely important doctrinal issue, and your position on this is not consistent or logical

Hi there welcome to Worthyboards...great name by the way.

I hope you will stick around and enjoy some good fellowship even with the controversial stuff...and maybe we can see in Scripture a clearer picture of some of the things you might believe are extremely important.

Horizoneast has certainly given a great explanation and placed things into a proper perspective don't you think?

I wonder what you think of the time when Samuel appeared to Saul at Endor...or when Moses and Elijah appeared with the L-rd on the Mountain?

I am very keen to hear you expand on how some of us are inconsistent and not logical in this area...it could well be...I am sure many of us have areas of belief that are not 100% consistent with the Scriptures...and we should always help and encourage one another into a fuller or better understanding of the truth....the Church can do with any amount of Aquila's and Priscilla's...especially on things that have a bearing on daily living and security in Messiah.

[Guest hopeonlyinChrist]

Wow! Thanks everyone for your responses, and thanks for the welcome, Botz. I thought I might just be ignored, being a brand new member here. I will try to respond to each of your comments.

Dad Ernie, I would ask that in the future you use direct Scriptural quotes, and not re-phrase so as to make God's word appear to say something it doesn't. If you look closer at Ecc. 3:21, especially in one of the modern versions, you will see that Solomon is questioning if there is any difference in man & beast.

"Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?" NIV

In verses 20 & 21 he states "that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Nowhere does he state anything "goes to be with God".

And if you are here equating this "spirit of man" to be a "soul" in the modern understanding, then it must logically follow that the beasts have souls, because the same word is used for both the spirit of man, and the spirit of the beast.

Finally, my brother, I am definitely not into dividing, but looking for that day when "we all come in the unity of the faith."

Horizoneast, your reference to Matt. 22:32 seems to support your point, but it is interesting that this verse is taken from the context of Jesus discussing with the Sadducees the controversial subject of the resurrection. Jesus is simply showing these unbelievers in this marvelous doctrine the logical necessity of the resurrection, otherwise His Father would not be the "God of the living." The Great Lifegiver "calleth those things which be not as though they were." Romans 4:17 He "inhabiteth eternity" (Isaiah 57:15), and though I can't really fathom how that can be, I believe that in His incredible mind He is already enjoying the eternal life He will share with those Old Testament worthies.

Solomon is simply saying in Ecclesiastes that the dead cannot observe earthly activities because, the

[nebula]

Wow, hope -

You got this all figured out based solely on what Solomon said.

Fascinating!

Because Solomon expressed no knowledge of the afterlife, then there exists no knowledge of the afterlife for anyone.

Remarkable.

Well, all I can say at this point is the Lord bless you on your journey in this life, and when we die, one of us will be suprised at the outcome.

[Guest hopeonlyinChrist]

You got this all figured out based solely on what Solomon said.Because Solomon expressed no knowledge of the afterlife, then there exists no knowledge of the afterlife for anyone.

Hi Nebula, I'm sorry you couldn't be bothered to read anything I wrote in my previous post, or you might have noticed that I only used Solomon as a jumping off point to enter into this crucial subject.

Well, all I can say at this point is the Lord bless you on your journey in this life, and when we die, one of us will be suprised at the outcome.

Well, my friend, from your last sentence I suspect our brief point of contact in this life is about over. In parting I would only warn you, pay no heed to any messages purporting to be from the hereafter, for they are not coming from our Heavenly Father, but from the enemy of God and man.

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."

[Botz]

HopeonlyinChrist. Hey thanks for the kind words.

You wrote...

The experience of Saul with the witch of Endor is another example of our mis-understanding of the soul and death, leading to illogical interpretations. So if that was really Samuel in that cave, this woman who was living in direct violation of God's commandment (Lv. 19:31, 20:6, 27, Dt. 18:101-12), and was under His explicit death sentence, was allowed to call forth God's prophet? I don't think so. The Great Creator and His arch-enemy Satan are engaged in a death struggle, and they do not ally together for any such purpose.

We are told in 1 Sam. 28:6 that "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." So if the Lord had not answered him through His chosen means of communication, is He going to work through this condemned woman? By no means.

I see this somewhat differently.

I believe that G-d allowed the real Samuel in his 'netherworld' state to appear and to pass judgment upon Saul...This was not a familiar spirit masquerading as the departed Samuel but was the actual spirit of Samuel who even from the grave was able to speak prophetic truth into the life of Saul...totally different from what a deceiving spirit would do...and the medium knew this straight away as soon as she saw Samuel and the 'elohim' she was in shock...it was so different from the occultic practice she was familiar with (sorry about the pun).

1Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

On top of the above, this imposter posing as Samuel claimed that the evil Saul was going to be with him on the next day. Now there's a little puzzle for you, the good and the bad going to the same place? Well, it's actually true, because they all go to the grave, to rest there unit "the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ." Romans 2:16

You see, God "hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

As for the place of departed spirits...I believe it was as Jesus described...a holding place if you like with a barrier between the righteous and the unrighteous..and the part that was for the righteous was also known as 'Abrahams Bosom'...as far as I can make out at the moment ...Paradise was the section for the 'saved' in Sheol...and the other part where there are torments and fire and thirst etc was for the 'lost'. So you can go to the same place or 'dimension' but inhabit separate parts.

Those in Paradise were awaiting their Redeemer and the redemption of their bodies....and in their present state they were separated from them and await new bodies...just like the L-rds ressurection body.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The second instance you mention, the appearing of Moses and Elijah with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, is a beautiful picture of the Second Coming. Moses was the first saint to be resurrected to life by the Great Lifegiver (See Jude 9), and represents those resurrected at Christ's second coming. And Elijah, he who was borne to heaven in a flaming chariot, represents those alive when He comes. (See 1 Thessalonians 4: 14-18) This is why Jesus said to his disciples just before this happened, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." Matt. 16:28 In that transfiguration was a picture, in miniature, of Jesus coming in His kingdom.

Again I see this differently...and I in no way have a full understanding of this.

I understand that Moses and Elijah were in the Bosom of Abraham and that G-d allowed them to appear with Jesus on the mountain (Tabor or Hermon) although neither had obtained their ressurection body yet. I think that when the L-rd descended into Sheol after His death on the cross He led those that were captive or confined in Paradise into Heavenly places...but still they do not have ressurection bodies....and if we die now and are separated from our decaying mortal bodies...we go to be with the L-rd but we look forward to our glorious ressurected bodies.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Have a great time over this holiday period and may G-d give you joy and peace in the inner man through the lovely presence of the Holy Ghost....His is the best present.

[nebula]

Hi Nebula, I'm sorry you couldn't be bothered to read anything I wrote in my previous post, or you might have noticed that I only used Solomon as a jumping off point to enter into this crucial subject.

No, I did read your post - and it was the only Scripture you referenced to support your point that I saw.

Well, my friend, from your last sentence I suspect our brief point of contact in this life is about over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not that I know of!

I just realized that neither of us were going to be able to make a dent in each other's beliefs on this in this discussion, and decided it best to bow out that to bash heads.

I believe the testimonies of those who have died and returned to life who have explained having left their bodies and went to other places, including Heaven, and/or met dead relatives or whatever.

I believe Jesus spoke of an actual place in mentioning Abraham's bosom. I beleive, as Botz mentioned, that the witch of Endor saw the real spirit/soul (whatever) of Samuel. I believe that John saw real souls of those who were martyred in Heaven appealing to the Lord. I believe that when jesus told the thief on the cross, "I tell you, this day, you will be with Me in Paradise," He meant, "This day you will be with Me in Paradise."

And I see that you have counter-explanations all worked out to fit your beliefs. And so to continue will only end in frustration on both sides.

So, why continue?