Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Was wondering if you could clarify that a little bit please. Is the "mouth" the false prophet? Is the beast from the sea a human? Could you elaborate? When human characteristics are given to a beast kingdom, the bible is then referring to the leader of that kingdom. The beast of Rev 13 is a kingdom, but later also the antichrist. Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Was wondering if you could clarify that a little bit please. Is the "mouth" the false prophet? Is the beast from the sea a human? Could you elaborate? When human characteristics are given to a beast kingdom, the bible is then referring to the leader of that kingdom. The beast of Rev 13 is a kingdom, but later also the antichrist. Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom? An animal is just used as a symbol for a country. Its as simple as that. There is no implication of demonic influence although all empires outside of Israel had less of a Godly intervention, and so would have been under the influence of ungodly religions. Because the bible focusses on the Middle East, these "animal" countries are normally huge empires that controlled the entire region for hundreds of years. The precedent for this is set in Daniel 7. The word "beast" has evil connotations in the English language, but in Greek it just meant something like a wild bull, or aurochs. I believe the abyss is just symbolism for coming out of a dark/barren place. The beast disappeared for a while (Rev 17: the beast was and is not), and in this way the kingdom comes back from a dark and barren place (comes out of the abyss). Yes it could also be seen as coming from a dark and evil place because the country is set up for evil purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 An animal is just used as a symbol for a country. Its as simple as that. There is no implication of demonic influence although all empires outside of Israel had less of a Godly intervention, and so would have been under the influence of ungodly religions. Because the bible focusses on the Middle East, these "animal" countries are normally huge empires that controlled the entire region for hundreds of years. The precedent for this is set in Daniel 7. The word "beast" has evil connotations in the English language, but in Greek it just meant something like a wild bull, or aurochs. I believe the abyss is just symbolism for coming out of a dark/barren place. The beast disappeared for a while (Rev 17: the beast was and is not), and in this way the kingdom comes back from a dark and barren place (comes out of the abyss). Yes it could also be seen as coming from a dark and evil place because the country is set up for evil purposes. Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? You don't think the abyss is a literal place? 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 Where exactly did the demons not want to go? How do you see the false prophet fitting into this kingdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom? I really don't understand how you guys can get off track so easily from what those Revelation Scriptures are pointing directly to, especially since I know you all are at least somewhat familiar with the Book of Daniel. The Rev.13:2 verse goes with the description of the 1st beast in Rev.13:1, showing that it is a kingdom, a possession of the dragon. At Rev.13:11 forward we are shown a 2nd beast ("another beast") and he causes the 'deadly wound' that is upon the 1st beast to be healed, clearly marking a distinction between him and that 1st beast as a kingdom. In Rev.17 our Lord Jesus explained what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 is, it's the "waters" symbol He used to represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. But with the 2nd beast coming up out of the earth, He also explained that in Rev.17 about the beast king that ascends from the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, pointing directly to the dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted July 31, 2014 An animal is just used as a symbol for a country. Its as simple as that. There is no implication of demonic influence although all empires outside of Israel had less of a Godly intervention, and so would have been under the influence of ungodly religions. Because the bible focusses on the Middle East, these "animal" countries are normally huge empires that controlled the entire region for hundreds of years. The precedent for this is set in Daniel 7. The word "beast" has evil connotations in the English language, but in Greek it just meant something like a wild bull, or aurochs. I believe the abyss is just symbolism for coming out of a dark/barren place. The beast disappeared for a while (Rev 17: the beast was and is not), and in this way the kingdom comes back from a dark and barren place (comes out of the abyss). Yes it could also be seen as coming from a dark and evil place because the country is set up for evil purposes. Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? You don't think the abyss is a literal place? 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 Where exactly did the demons not want to go? How do you see the false prophet fitting into this kingdom? Ok so you have precedent for your view that the abyss is related to demons I have precedent that a beast is a kingdom. How would you reconcile the two differences. I have tried. Have you got some precedent that would cause you to change the obvious meaning of beasts to something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom? I really don't understand how you guys can get off track so easily from what those Revelation Scriptures are pointing directly to, especially since I know you all are at least somewhat familiar with the Book of Daniel. The Rev.13:2 verse goes with the description of the 1st beast in Rev.13:1, showing that it is a kingdom, a possession of the dragon. At Rev.13:11 forward we are shown a 2nd beast ("another beast") and he causes the 'deadly wound' that is upon the 1st beast to be healed, clearly marking a distinction between him and that 1st beast as a kingdom. In Rev.17 our Lord Jesus explained what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 is, it's the "waters" symbol He used to represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. But with the 2nd beast coming up out of the earth, He also explained that in Rev.17 about the beast king that ascends from the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, pointing directly to the dragon. I missed your definition of a "beast kingdom". In general terms, without referring to any specific scripture, will you describe your understanding of what a beast kingdom is? a possession of the dragon? - Rev 13:2 "...And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." That's a whole lot different from "took possession of". Giving is the transfer of <whatever is given> from <the giver> to <the receiver>. Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 are two completely different contexts referring to the "sea" and the "water". Not the same. The "beast king" that comes up out of the abyss is Satan? When did (will) he get thrown in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 I missed your definition of a "beast kingdom". In general terms, without referring to any specific scripture, will you describe your understanding of what a beast kingdom is? No, I will not do that. Because God's Word only is how we truthfully know what it is. He gave us the evidence in those Scriptures I quoted. It's up to you to want to follow them as written or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Last Daze Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 84 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,011 Content Per Day: 1.12 Reputation: 2,519 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/17/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 An animal is just used as a symbol for a country. Its as simple as that. There is no implication of demonic influence although all empires outside of Israel had less of a Godly intervention, and so would have been under the influence of ungodly religions. Because the bible focusses on the Middle East, these "animal" countries are normally huge empires that controlled the entire region for hundreds of years. The precedent for this is set in Daniel 7. The word "beast" has evil connotations in the English language, but in Greek it just meant something like a wild bull, or aurochs. I believe the abyss is just symbolism for coming out of a dark/barren place. The beast disappeared for a while (Rev 17: the beast was and is not), and in this way the kingdom comes back from a dark and barren place (comes out of the abyss). Yes it could also be seen as coming from a dark and evil place because the country is set up for evil purposes. Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? You don't think the abyss is a literal place? 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 Where exactly did the demons not want to go? How do you see the false prophet fitting into this kingdom? Ok so you have precedent for your view that the abyss is related to demons I have precedent that a beast is a kingdom. How would you reconcile the two differences. I have tried. Have you got some precedent that would cause you to change the obvious meaning of beasts to something else. I'm not changing the meaning of beasts, just getting to the root of their existence. I agree that the beasts in Daniel 7 are described as kings / kingdoms. Daniel 10 shows us that there are demons behind the scenes, associated with these kingdoms. Demon is released from the abyss and causes a kingdom (beast) to exercise dominion. I'm not sure what it is that you want me to reconcile. What are the two differences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salty Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,665 Content Per Day: 0.46 Reputation: 512 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/11/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2014 a possession of the dragon? - Rev 13:2 "...And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." That's a whole lot different from "took possession of". Giving is the transfer of <whatever is given> from <the giver> to <the receiver>. This is basic grammar 101 in that Rev. Scripture. It's not difficult to realize the possessive pronouns in it. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. That "his" and "him" are simply being used as possessive pronouns, to show ownership. It does not mean that 1st beast is a person. The KJV translators could have just as well translated those as "its" per the Greek, but they didn't clearly, showing they most likely didn't yet grasp its meaning. Back in Rev.12:3-4 with the red dragon, it's about the time of Satan's original rebellion; we are shown a beast kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns, and it's timing is given when he drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with his tail. In Rev.13:2 the 1st beast is being compared to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7. In Rev.17 Jesus said the "seven heads" are "seven mountains", and He was... describing details about both beasts in that Rev.17, so I disagree with your false assumption that Rev.17 has nothing to do with Rev.13. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Does a person have "seven heads" that are "seven mountains"? Of course not. Does a person have "ten horns" that represent ten kings per Daniel and Rev.17? Of course not. But a beast kingdom does. The 2nd Beast: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Why would the deceived worship the 1st beast if that is about a kingdom, right? Because that's what they are in love with, even today, the one world system idea. When that 2nd beast comes to that power, that's what he will setup over all the earth, as one of its "seven heads" will have suffered a deadly wound. Does a person with seven heads suffer a wound? No, of course not. But a system can. And since Jesus told us IN REV.17 the "seven heads" ARE "seven mountains", which 'mountain' head would that be that suffers a deadly wound for that 2nd beast to come and heal it? So in reality, when you guys should be much farther in your understanding of this matter our Lord Jesus revealed, it seems you want to go backwards. The time is too short to be doing that backwards pedaling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGOSY Posted July 31, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,695 Content Per Day: 0.45 Reputation: 583 Days Won: 2 Joined: 01/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/11/1968 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm not changing the meaning of beasts, just getting to the root of their existence. I agree that the beasts in Daniel 7 are described as kings / kingdoms. Daniel 10 shows us that there are demons behind the scenes, associated with these kingdoms. Demon is released from the abyss and causes a kingdom (beast) to exercise dominion. I'm not sure what it is that you want me to reconcile. What are the two differences? That's all good, thanks for explaining, I just wanted to understand your position, and I feel what you have said is an option. My explanation of how a kingdom can arise from the abyss is similar but more symbolic, yours a little more literal which is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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