Going to church

[carlos123]

Come on, don't you like the "compact" version of what I had to say?

I like that footsteps. A sense of humor.

Man oh man my fingers and my body is so tired that I can barely type. It's as if my fingers are lead tonight. I wanted to say something to you tonight but I guess it will have to warit till mornonrg.

Wishing you the best in the New Yaear!

Carlos

[Footsteps]

Come on, don't you like the "compact" version of what I had to say?

I like that footsteps. A sense of humor.

Man oh man my fingers and my body is so tired that I can barely type. It's as if my fingers are lead tonight. I wanted to say something to you tonight but I guess it will have to warit till mornonrg.

Wishing you the best in the New Yaear!

Carlos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alright bro. Have a good sleep. Rest up those fingers. I want some life changing advice tomorrow.

Edited January 1, 2005 by footsteps

[carlos123]

Hi foosteps,

My fingers have sufficiently recovered that I can now write something in response . Glad to see you made changes to the formatting of your post. Much, much easier to read now. Thanks.

As I finished reading your post and was getting ready to respond I felt a distinct leading to not do so until I had prayed over what to share with you. I don't often sense this kind of thing but from past experience I know that it usually means the Lord is wanting me to do something differently than I would tend to do on my own. In this to perhaps share something different than I was intending.

As I prayed for you in your situation and over what I could share with you I think I discerned something in what you said that I did not have in mind initially.

I never felt comfortable with telling anybody within the church how I felt.

Part of the problem in your recent church involvement and how it was unsatisfactory may lie as much with how you handled what happened as in what the church may have been doing wrong. You see by never telling anybody in the church about how you felt, I mean not in a gossipy sort of way but rather to leadership, the problems in the church may have taken on a much greater significance than might have been warranted by your entering into a give and take conversation covering what was going on with someone in leadership who might have been able to help you see things a bit differently.

I don't know how often I have thought certain things and had those things be challenged and shown to be off in some way in going to leadership or listening to correction from them regarding what I was thinking but it's been more often than not. Sometimes I have been wrong, not in what I perceived, but in the timing of when to share something with whom, or perhaps in how I might have said something in an unloving way, or otherwise.

It is indeed possible, and very likely, that you saw some things that were indeed wrong in the church but in not going to leadership to discuss it you may have missed out on the Lord showing you some things about your perception that may in turn have not been right. Causing everything to snowball in your own mind over time to the point where you even contemplated killing others in the church.

So just as a note to bear in mind in any future involvement in church I would learn from this and make sure that you discuss these things with appropriate individuals in your next church before it ever gets to the point of your getting so mad that you want to blow up the next one .

In addition to the above I would say this.....

Church is not defined as going to a building on Sunday morning and getting together with other believers. We, you and me and those on this forum, are experiencing church! Did you know that?

I initially wanted to say that we are going to church here on the forum but in fact "going" to church is a complete misnomer! We can't go to any church, local or otherwise. We ARE the church! How can we as a church go to ourselves? Do you see what I mean?

Wherever two or three are gathered together in his name that is a church and that is as much of a church in the definition of the word as 100 or 10000 getting together to meet in a building. Bear that in mind.

Lastly I would like to add that the Church, at least her in North America, is in an ABSOLUTE mess in my opinion! It is full of sin that should not be there and that we are letting remain by virtue of not confronting it in our midst. So don't be surprised by the sin that you may see in it expressing itself either in what people do or think. The degree to which you saw sin in your church accurately is not clear, espeically since you didn't discuss it with leadership there, but it may well be that there was sin there. Nothing new there.

What you and I and every Christian need to do is to draw near to the Lord in the privacy of our home closets so to speak and then learn to speak the truth in love where it might most be needed.

I itoo have had a great deal of trouble attending local churches. In fact I have not been involved in a local church for close to two or three years. But that alone does not make me less of a Christian or less in love with the Lord or less willing or less anything. I see myself as being involved in the Church here on the forum and through contact with others by email. In ways that I find myself growing and learning and being drawn near to God through. There is nothing wrong with that footsteps even as an alternative to going to a local church. At least for a time.

It is, I think, best to find local fellowship as there are some things that cannot be readily accomplished by the Lord in our lvies, through just Internet fellowship but at the same time I am aware that if we were in prison somewhere the fellowship that you I might have by pecking morse code on the walls our cells to one another could potentially be as rich and as full as any we might come to find in a local church.

God is not bound to provide us the fellowship that we need through face to face contact Footsteps for it is His Spirit that works in us all to help us experience His Presence in His Body. It's not of ourselves or a static thing as though we could go to a building and sing this or that song and hear a sermon and somehow be guaranteed through the correct exercise of such a function of experiencing God's loving and living Presence throught it. He, in us, to work through us what is pleasing to His will. Whether through this forum or in a building or in the back room of a restaurant. It doesn't matter. The key is that it is HIM at work in us! Not a particular format or place to meet.

I hope that makes sense and helps Footsteps. Let me know if you want to fellowship more and I will make my email address known to you. Just PM me if you want.

By the way I wonidered if you were a female too at first. Only because one does not find guys that are very open about what is rolling around in their hearts very often. I think you and I might have that in common though. Since I tend to be a very open guy too. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just not very common and most often associated with being female in our culture .

I hope I have not bored you by my long post but I felt that it might encourage you and give you some useful insight.

Carlos

PS. By the way Footsepts if you respond to this post on the thread please don't quote my post fully in your reply at it will take up needless space on the thread and make it more difficult to follow the conversation. Not that you have done that before mind you but I have noticed sometimes that one's on the forum will quote a really long post like mine and then say a sentence or two at the end which makes the thread a bit harder to follow than if they had done otherwise.

Edited January 1, 2005 by carlos123

[Guest RockyRoad]

Part of the problem in your recent church involvement and how it was unsatisfactory may lie as much with how you handled what happened as in what the church may have been doing wrong. You see by never telling anybody in the church about how you felt, I mean not in a gossipy sort of way but rather to leadership, the problems in the church may have taken on a much greater significance than might have been warranted by your entering into a give and take conversation covering what was going on with someone in leadership who might have been able to help you see things a bit differently.

I so much liked this particular part of your answer...

If we are afraid to share our thought we need to be concerned where they are coming from and how "right" they are...

It is so amazing what a little light shed on our thoughts can do...

It exposes them for what they are...

whether good or bad...

RockyRoad

[Keith]

Hi Footsteps, I wanted to respond to your post because I can relate to so much of what you're saying. I can feel your pain as I read your post. I went through a very similar experience in 1999/2000 with a church that hurt me (and many others) tremendously. So much so that I lost my zeal for the Lord and wanted nothing to do with going to "church" ever again!

I'm new here and I haven't learned how to use the quote feature yet, but allow me to respond to some things you mentioned. As you read this, keep in mind that I walked the road you're on right now. My responses are completely out of compassion for your pain and from my personal experience on that road.

You said that your church problems were a major reason (stumbling block) for why you have fallen away from God. It was mine, too. The truth then, is that our faith relied too much on "man". Men failed us, God did not. God is not responsible for what they did/said. We associate the pain with God because these men are supposed to be "working for God." If these "men" caused us to walk away from God, who then was our faith in? Certainly not in God because He promised never to forsake us. He is perfect in His love for us.

There is a stanza in a poem I read that really helped me to heal.

"No, that trauma you faced was not easy.

And God wept that it hurt you so;

But it was allowed to shape your heart

So that into His likeness you'd grow."

God knows and feels your pain! Know that! Don't let man dictate how you feel about God. I needed to know that God knew how much pain I was in and that He hadn't overlooked/forgotten me. This poem helped me to realize that God knew full well!

You said you prayed that God would lead you to a home church. Who of us knows God's reasons for everything? It could be that the guy who wouldn't leave you alone was put in your life to give you a chance to grow. Maybe it was God's way of building your character, teaching you about patience, or any other number of reasons. We all must learn how to deal with difficult people. We can't avoid them because there are too many of them out there! Besides, there's no such thing as a perfect church. So many Christians (generalizing) try to find a church where they feel comfortable. They don't want to be challenged but want to have their ears tickled and hear only about God's blessings and feel a spiritual high! (I'm not saying this is the case with you. I'm just making a point as to the reasons why many Christians choose their churches. I personally prayed and asked God to lead me to the church where He wanted me.

This post is getting long so let me just leave the Cliff Notes version of the rest of what I wanted to say! I am not wise enough to comment on the pastor's, or the staff's, "sermon errors". I could see why their frequency would be disconcerting though. But you mentioned that you feel God led you to a church that you hated and they hurt you. You mentioned the pastor's wife that wouldn't say hello to you. You said that you started hating everybody and wanted to run up on stage and call out the hypocrites and condemn those who were holding the church back. All of these things are about how you felt/feel. We aren't called to live by our feelings, but by faith in God, that He knows what He's doing in our lives. I don't know you so please remember that I'm speaking from personal experience in the same matter and not trying to be insulting towards you!" If God did indeed lead you to this church, there is a reason but you must take your eyes off of yourself and your feelings to find that reason. Then, by faith, walk out His purpose for having you there.

How we act/react towards trials/troubles here on earth are tests of our character, faith, obedience, love, integrity and loyalty. Our character is both developed and revealed by tests. We were created to last forever and our lives on this earth are "trial runs" that prepare us for our eternal lives.

My purpose for responding isn't to get you to go back to that church, but to comfort you by letting you know that you aren't alone in feeling like this. I stopped going to any churches for four years. This ended up being a mistake. The Bible says to not forsake the gathering together of the saints. We need fellowship with other believers in a 'corporate' setting. We were not designed to live life by ourselves and by our own efforts. We all need each other. I am back in church and walking closely with the Lord again and I'm so grateful for it! I regret having lost those four years because during that time I said I would continue my relationship with God by studying on my own and/or with a few Christian friends. This doesn't last! It's trying to keep a relationship with God using your own efforts. My relationship with God waned, as did my relationship with anything Christian. Don't let this happen to you, Footsteps.

I pray this post makes some sense to you and that it comes across with compassion, yet with truth. I understand this pain your in and I am so very sorry for it! I know it's not easy. But you must decide if your relationship with God is based on faith or feelings.

In His Service,

Keith

Edited January 2, 2005 by Keith

[Footsteps]

Good advice from all. I will respond back in more detail in a few days. Thanks everyone!

Edited January 3, 2005 by footsteps

[Keith]

You are in my prayers, Footsteps.