The Bible, its hard to read?

[Macs Son]

I understand then that the serpent, man, and women were punished for the deed, as the original sin.  This seems to change the world forever.  But was it Gods intention for man to remain pure forever, if the sin was not committed?  And if so I wonder what kind of world we would live in.

Anyway enough questions for now.  Thanks for reading.

Hi Mick,

Well it looks like you served up the toughest question for last as there is no straightforward answer but Biblical infrences to make the case.

You are right in stating when sin entered into mankind it changed the world forever. It was the fall of man.

I don't think, however, that this was brought about by an act of God. And I'll try and explain why I derive that conclusion.

1. Man fall was a direct action of sinning against the Lord by disobedience and that choice to sin was a free act of his own volition.

2. It would also appear Adam knew instinctively what death was - that he understood the penalty

 

First God gave Adam ample warning against eating the fruit and commanded them not to eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:16-17

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

But of the tree h6086 usage 1.tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows

עֵץ `ets

of the knowledge h1847 usage 1.knowledge, perception, skill

דַּעַת da`ath

of good h2896 usage 1.good, pleasant, agreeable

טוֹב towb

and evil , h7451 1.bad, disagreeable, malignant

רַע ra`

We can read much into differences between what the Lord says to Adam and what Eve says to satan.

1. Adam understood this as a grave warning, since it's implied that Eve herself was not there, by timeline.

2. Since she did not hear it directly from the Lord as Adam had we are left to ponder where she had heard it.

3. Seeing how she paraphrased the above verse, but knew it to be a commandment from the Lord, it is most likely Adam relayed this message to her, which gives us some insight to his walk with God was built on a trust relationship

4. The fact that God warns Him lets us know God was not complicit in his disobedience.

5. Therefore I conclude God did not make Adam fall but did give Him free will to choose to obey or disobey.

Now let's look at Eve's statement

And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.' "

Notice that Eve adds "fruit" and "touch" to the original command and does not say "surely" you shall die but "lest you die". It's not quite as straight forward as the command as delivered to Adam although it has the same major elements of the original directive. It worth taking a look at the Hebrew here.

But of the fruit h6529

פְּרִי pĕriy Eve added that it was the fruit of the tree that was forbidden

of the tree h6086 same as Adam usage 1.tree, wood, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, gallows

עֵץ `ets

which is in the midst h8432 This also Eve added to the original command indicating she knew where it was

תָּוֶךְ tavek

of the garden, h1588 (same as above)

גַּן gan

God h430

אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym

Eve also added this - indicating again the plural form of the word "God", indicating Christ the Son; the "we" being both the Father and the Son of God.

hath said, h559 Also added

אָמַר 'amar

Ye shall not eat h398 Same rendering as God to Adam

אָכַל 'akal

of it, neither shall ye touch h5060 This is an addition - you can almost hear Adam telling her don't even go near it!

נָגַע naga`

it, lest h6435 usage: 1.lest, not, beware lest, Added by Eve, which further indicate a warning reverberated from Adam, "be wary Eve"

פֵּן pen

ye die. h4191 the very same word used by the Lord

מוּת muwth

This is all pretty subtle inferences but nevertheless everything in the Bible is for learning and so I believe we should take notice. That said the larger story is more important.

We go on with our observations then

6. God did not desire for them to fall

7. The power of sin is great and mostly man is blind to it except when they discover they are in it themselves.

Genesis 3:6-7

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

8. We can infer a few things happened here

_a. before the fall they were not partakers of evil but only knew and understood that their own power, life and heart was sourced in God, whom they trusted

_b. The offer from satan subtlely suggested God had deceived them, when all along he was the liar and was deceiving Eve

_c. Eve believed satan that it would give her insight she did not have making her more like God. Adam followed Eve's disobedience when it was shared with him. The sin therefore preceded the act even before they ate for they had chosen to disobey first.

_d. When they ate their eyes could not only now comprehend the difference between good and evil but they themselves saw their sin and knew they were impure before God. Instead of running to God when they heard Him in the Garden they would run away and hide themselves. The spiritual death had already occurred as sure as a flower ripped from it roots can live in water a few days but will eventually die.

9. God knew beforehand and had from the foundation of the world made provision for fallen man by the freewill sacrifice of our Savior, His Son, that man might live through Him. Some might think blood sacrifice is repugnant but there is no greater love that a man lay his life down for his friends. Every soldier under fire know the sacrifices of his friends more than a civilian who has never been under fire. We need to grasp the sacrifice of Christ in light of the great love of His atoning sacrifice or else we never truly understand the Gospel.

And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

All for now

In Christ, Pat

Edited August 1, 2014 by Macs Son

[llove]

The Bible can be challenging, however, the Holy Spirit will guide us in all understanding.

[Jzyehoshua]

Knowledge in itself isn't wrong, indeed the Bible calls on Christians to study to answer, and calls noble those who question so long as they do so with an open mind and a desire to find the truth about God.

 

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

Acts 17:11  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

What Adam and Eve did wasn't wrong because of seeking knowledge. They were commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, because God didn't want them to be corrupted by knowing about evil. Knowledge of good wasn't the problem, but knowledge of evil. Paul expresses this principle, that Christians should be wise about good specifically.

 

Romans 16:19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil.

[Diatheosis]

Brother,

 

for the better part of the first 1500 years most of the Christians did not understand the Bible, if they could not read Latin, Hebrew, or Greek, Because it had not been translated to so many languages (there are coptic, aramean etc. of course).

 

It helps a great deal to do some research on the Jewish culture and theology, since much of what Jesus said and taught was in the Jewish context. Some Hellenistic (Greek) study won't too much harm either.

 

But as said before, without the Holy Spirit it will one hard project to get what the bible has to say.

[Macs Son]

This seems to change the world forever. But was it Gods intention for man to remain pure forever, if the sin was not committed? And if so I wonder what kind of world we would live in.

Anyway enough questions for now. Thanks for reading.

cont'd

Yes it changed it changed man's day from light to darkness but while it was still dark Christ came to save us and complete us in Himself, as well as point us to the Lord's day when we shall be clothed in Christ and no longer naked.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned — for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Devil therefore was not able to frustrate the will of God. For all his lying and devious endeavors that he has worked against us, as well as present attempts to continue his work deception against mankind, God's precious creation, the gate of hell shall not prevail against Christ and His Church. As the Lord so stated this prophecy in the Garden of Eden:

And I will put enmity

Between you and the woman,

And between your seed and her Seed;

He shall bruise your head,

And you shall bruise His heel.”

They nailed Jesus wrists and heel to the tree by satan's power of though and the knowledge of evil and so too, for the Church is the presence of Christ in the world to every generation, they persecute Christians and continually nip at our heels for Christ will put every enemy underneath His foot. But know as well that Revelation speaks of the wound of the antichrist.

Psalms 68:20-21

God is to us a God of deliverances; and to GOD the Lord belong escapes from death.

But God will wound the head of His enemies, the hairy scalp of the one who still goes on in his trespasses.

Luke 10:19

“Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.

Revelation 13:12-14 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

God's intention was to perfect man from the beginning and overcome all that stands in His Way, including the devil, who by his own free will, attempts to frustrate the Will of God. The Will of the Father then shows the depth of that love and purpose by sending Christ to die in our place. We receive the death sentence but Christ steps up as our advocate to take it for us, just as the Passover sacrifice foreshadowed it

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

Colossians 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 2:14-15

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

So now I think we can conclude your questions

... was it Gods intention for man to remain pure forever, if the sin was not committed?

And if so I wonder what kind of world we would live in.

So it was always God's intention for man to be pure forever and reflect His Glory. We can now see that satan's attempts to frustrate God Intent and Will have only resulted in a greater manifestation of God's Glory and Love for mankind. What kind of world would it look like if it never happened? Well we know man was not perfected yet and so there was a transition that was needed to perfect us. However, we are left to speculate just how that would have come about. The fact that satan intervened was sin and disobedience of God's will for man but God turned the great sin and disobedience into the greatest love story, the greatest heroism, and the greatest glory we have ever been told and the best is yet to come. That is more than enough for me.

We have the promise of God made to Abraham my brother. When you look at that night sky know that one of those stars represents your soul shining that he beheld for all the son's of that promise that God would yield in His harvest.

Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!" And behold, the Word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15:3-6

One star lit for you my friend - take heart in that when you look up at the night sky and be lifted up in that knowledge.

May you be blessed in Christ brother, Pat

[CurtisCWilson]

Every Christian starts on the same level, not knowing anything. Reading the Bible was never intended by God for you to figure out on your own. It was designed by God the Father to be revealed to you. The Father is the teacher, he confirms what he teaches you by his Word, and the Holy Spirit bears witness to what was taught. One of the hardest things to learn is that the Bible will not say anything to you until you first have a relationship with God the Father.

Jesus said this.....

 

Joh 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 

. 

Notice: Jesus said the very first thing that happens is (1) you hear the Father (prayer) (2) He teaches you something (3) then you go to the Word.

 

The Word of God does not speak to you until the Father speaks. It is in his Word he confirms what he has taught you as true, then the Holy Spirit bears witness to what you learned as coming from God. A lot of Christians put the Word first which is not the divine order in how God works. If you start with the Word, and you do not understand what you are reading, then who do you turn to for clarification? Your pastor, commentaries, or your other brothers and sisters in the Lord. If we start out first with our fellowship with our Heavenly Father through prayer we will not have this problem.

[Willa]

Start reading in the New Testament with the Gospels.  Many people recommend starting with the Gospel of John, but starting with Matthew and reading through Jude would be fine.  The last book, Revelations, is the one that no one completely understands.  

 

These are the books of Christ and the church.  The Old Testament starts with Genesis but it is largely a lot of history, laws, and boundaries of the Promised Land as well as names that few can pronounce.  So the easiest would be to read the Psalms and Proverbs.  

 

Many people start in Genesis since it is the first of the "Book"  But the Bible is a collection of many books.  So Genesis starts the history of the world and particularly the Jewish people.  It contains their failures as well as their triumphs.  But we are to learn from their failures as to what not to do.  We can also see the patience and nature of God in it all.  He would wait centuries to bring a people to judgement.  Then He would forgive His people over and over again. So I personally would recommend starting in Genesis much later in your studies to learn the history and prophesies of the Jewish people.

[Macs Son]

The Word of God does not speak to you until the Father speaks. It is in his Word he confirms what he has taught you as true, then the Holy Spirit bears witness to what you learned as coming from God. A lot of Christians put the Word first which is not the divine order in how God works. If you start with the Word, and you do not understand what you are reading, then who do you turn to for clarification? Your pastor, commentaries, or your other brothers and sisters in the Lord. If we start out first with our fellowship with our Heavenly Father through prayer we will not have this problem.

Yes, I would agree that just reading or even studying the Bible in of itself, without any enlightenment, gives you any understanding otherwise Bart Ehrman might actually know what he is talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

It's amazing to me that a talented academic scholar can so totally miss the love of God and the Gospel message of what salvation is all about and the illiterate fishermen of the New Testament, mere babes, would so completely get it. That said

The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

But as the Word of God says the proud He disdains but He gives grace to the humble - so sometimes a good education that puffs you up can work against you. I do not know if that is the case with Bart or not but it is something to be wary of.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

knowledge can puff up pride

1Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.

And we already know what the Bible has to say about our pride

Proverbs 3:34

Surely He scorns the scornful, but gives grace to the humble.

James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1Peter 5:5

Likewise you younger people, submit yourselves to your elders. Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for “God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

The Holy Spirit, however, can utilize many ways in order to bring about discernment and an understanding of God's Word. Here is a Biblical example of how some people came to understand the Word of God

Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, “Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is desert. So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”

So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this:

He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;

And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,

So He opened not His mouth.

In His humiliation His justice was taken away,

​​And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth.”

So the eunuch answered Philip and said, “I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?”

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”

Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”

And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.

So it is important to approach the Word of God with a humble attitude for He does give grace to the humble. But also we need to approach the Scriptures with a keen desire to understand what God is telling us for we are to worship Him both in Spirit and Truth. Now the Bereans were thus fair minded people willing to listen to what Paul had to say about the Scriptures and they searched out whether his word was true or not.

Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was preached by Paul at Berea, they came there also and stirred up the crowds.

Now just having the presence of the Holy Spirit in you does not mean we cannot still be led astray or else the discipling Paul gave to the flock at Galatia would not have had this warning; for some were trying to get them to live under the Law and not under Grace. I believe we have to contend for the faith and disciple as Jesus taught us to do

My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you. Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?

And Jesus said:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

Matthew 28:19-20

So agree praying, seeking the truth, listening to others but discerning what is true and what is not, and seeking wisdom in the Word of God and asking for the gift of wisdom are all important in correctly exegeting the Scriptures.

May God Bless you in that endeavor, Pat

Edited August 2, 2014 by Macs Son

[dscapp]

It's not about what you know, it's who you know.

[CurtisCWilson]

Here is a little secret I learned as a very young child. I found out that if I would cry loud and long enough I could get just about anything I wanted. I also found this out to be true with God too.

 

Pro 2:1  My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; 

Pro 2:2  So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; 

Pro 2:3  Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; 

Pro 2:4  If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; 

Pro 2:5  Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. 

Pro 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. 

Pro 2:7  He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: he is a buckler to them that walk uprightly. 

 

Do you remember how to cry?