Is Gog/Magog War=Armageddon War

[Salty]

You are still confused. The pretrib rapture is found clearly in the bible. Your preconceived glasses are preventing you from seeing it. You also have the day of the Lord wrong, and much of the rest of Revelation.Of course you are free to believe what you will, but if I was you, I would start over with Acts 1 & 2. You cannot bypass those 2 chapters and hope to understand scripture.

 

 

No, there is no pre-tribulational secret rapture doctrine found preached by Christ or by any of His Apostles in God's Word.

 

But there is mention of the doctrine, those who teach God's people to 'fly' to save their souls, and God is against those who teach such a thing. That is written, and it's in Ezekiel 13.

 

Acts 1 & 2 a requirement now to understand God's Holy Writ??? Is that some 'new and improved' doctrine those preachers are teaching you now??

 

I will tell you where God shows us how to study and understand His Word. It's per the example in Isaiah 28. Acts 1 is about our Lord Jesus's ascent and declarations of His Church according to His promises, including the gift of The Holy Spirit. Acts 2 is about Pentecost when The Holy Spirit descended upon His Apostles, speaking the tongue that went forth as known languages to all present who heard them speak in their own dialects of birth. It was not some 'unknown' tongue, for that word "unknown" in the KJV of 1 Cor.12-14 is not in the Greek NT manuscripts.

 

If you're trying to point specifically to The Holy Spirit being promised His Church, then you'll find a more detailed description of that promise in John 12 through 16.

 

To understand God's Holy Writ, which was given by The Holy Spirit, one must be under the influence of The Holy Spirit. And per Apostle Paul speaking the cloven tongue of Pentecost was only one administration by The Holy Spirit.

 

So are you trying to make speaking an 'unknown' tongue a requirement to understand God's Holy Writ? I know several brethren personally that claim to speak that cloven tongue, but it comes out as gibberish, when the true cloven tongue of Pentecost went out as languages (Greek glossa), and everyone present understood in their own dialects of birth. Dialect means even the slang of one's area of birth. It was that accurate. The one claimed which comes out as gibberish is from another spirit, and not from God. If that were not so then those would never dream of believing on a pre-trib secret rapture theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and those would not be so easily deceived by those pastors that preach for His people to fly to save their souls.

[Last Daze]

 

 

What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God?  What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?

What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)

 

Do WE as believers have any say in this?

 

LAMAD

 

 

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate?  I missed it.

 

I guarantee it is settled in heaven!  The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Where in the Bible does it say that?  I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

[iamlamad]

 

You are still confused. The pretrib rapture is found clearly in the bible. Your preconceived glasses are preventing you from seeing it. You also have the day of the Lord wrong, and much of the rest of Revelation.Of course you are free to believe what you will, but if I was you, I would start over with Acts 1 & 2. You cannot bypass those 2 chapters and hope to understand scripture.

 

 

No, there is no pre-tribulational secret rapture doctrine found preached by Christ or by any of His Apostles in God's Word.

 

Where did you get such thick preconceived glasses? Perhaps it is you who have been listening to the wrong teachers. You have serious problems in your theories. You think you have the right to rearrange Revelation. I know instantly, just from that, that your theories will be proven wrong.

 

If you wish to learn the TRUTH about the rapture, Paul is the only writer of the New Testament that wrote about it. You cannot find Paul's rapture anywhere else. In 1 Thes 5, Paul shows us that His rapture comes as the trigger for a HUGE earthquake caused by  the dead in Christ rising. That earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction." Understand, when God brings together the atoms that once made up those human bodies laying in the grave, it will cause an earthquake. We know that from Mat. 27: "the earth did quake ...and the graves were opened..."  That same earthquake "sudden destruction" is the very same earthquake at the 6th seal. That seal, along with the 7th is still sealing the book that was in the Father's right hand. Inside the book, once all 7 seals are broken, will be the rest of the book of Revelation. It will be impossible for any trumpet to sound before all the seals are broken so the scroll book can be unrolled further to reveal the trumpets. Yet, you want to rearrange, proving to us you have little understanding of this great book.

 

Paul did not change his mind in 2 Thes. Any reader with a little common sense understands that people would not be upset upon hearing they were IN the Day of the Lord, if they had been previously taught that the rapture would be at the end. All they would have to do is wait a short while. However, if they had been taught that the rapture was the trigger for the day, then we understand why they were so upset they wrote to Paul. It is very simple: they thought they had MISSED the rapture.

 

Paul tells us that the man of sin cannot be revealed until FIRST the one restraining him is removed or departed or taken out of the way. Yet, in verse 3b the man if sin is revealed, proving in Paul's argument that the one restraining has been "taken out of the way. "  What has departed or been taken out of the way? Of course it is the rapture of the church. It is the Holy Spirit working through the church that is restraining the revealing of the man of sin. There is too much prayer in his way.

 

So we see Paul teaching that the rapture or departing of the one restraining is taken out of the way FIRST, then the man of sin is revealed.

 

Therefore, DON'T TELL US the rapture is not written in the bible as coming before the 70th week. The truth is, IT IS. John proves this yet again by showing us the raptured church in heaven before he even begins the 70th week.

 

But there is mention of the doctrine, those who teach God's people to 'fly' to save their souls, and God is against those who teach such a thing. That is written, and it's in Ezekiel 13.

 

You don't even know what this verse means. It certainly is not talking about being caught up by the Holy Spirit. It is talking about witchcraft. Will you accuse the Holy Spirit of witchcraft when He snatched Enoch?

 

Acts 1 & 2 a requirement now to understand God's Holy Writ??? Is that some 'new and improved' doctrine those preachers are teaching you now??

 

Just as I suspected, you have bypassed these chapters. God gave a command, not a suggestion. It is the Holy Spirit that was send to be our teacher. Yet, you hope to be taught when rejecting Jesus' mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that the church is sadly lacking in being taught by the Holy Spirit, since we have hundreds of denominations that all disagree. Oh, they all THINK they have  been taught by Him.  Common sense proves they have not. Revelation knowledge of the word of God comes from praying in the Holy Spirit. Much of the church has no idea what that is. They cannot fulfill Jude 20.

 

I will tell you where God shows us how to study and understand His Word. It's per the example in Isaiah 28. Acts 1 is about our Lord Jesus's ascent and declarations of His Church according to His promises, including the gift of The Holy Spirit. Acts 2 is about Pentecost when The Holy Spirit descended upon His Apostles, speaking the tongue that went forth as known languages to all present who heard them speak in their own dialects of birth. It was not some 'unknown' tongue, for that word "unknown" in the KJV of 1 Cor.12-14 is not in the Greek NT manuscripts.

 

You cannot even tell us the truth about the rapture. How then can you teach us how to understand His word. You have been proving all along that you do not.  If you were an astute student of the bible, you would KNOW that Paul wrote that ALL tongues is speaking unto God and NO ONE understands. You would know that there are different divisions of tongues: one:  as a personal prayer language; two: as a sign to unbelievers, where God causes people to HEAR in their own language (they are still speaking to God as Paul wrote, speaking gibberish - but God causes people to hear in their own language. Go back and read it again: Luke wrote that they all HEARD in their own language. If you can put two and two together, these were praying the very same tongues as Paul was explaining in 1 Cor. 14. Three: as a special gift to give a message in tongues to be interpreted in a meeting.  So once again you show us you lack understanding of the truth of God's word.  If I were you, I would lock myself in a closet and tell God you will not come out until you receive exactly what they received in Acts 2:4.

 

If you're trying to point specifically to The Holy Spirit being promised His Church, then you'll find a more detailed description of that promise in John 12 through 16.

 

To understand God's Holy Writ, which was given by The Holy Spirit, one must be under the influence of The Holy Spirit. And per Apostle Paul speaking the cloven tongue of Pentecost was only one administration by The Holy Spirit.

 

So are you trying to make speaking an 'unknown' tongue a requirement to understand God's Holy Writ? I know several brethren personally that claim to speak that cloven tongue, but it comes out as gibberish, when the true cloven tongue of Pentecost went out as languages (Greek glossa), and everyone present understood in their own dialects of birth. Dialect means even the slang of one's area of birth. It was that accurate. The one claimed which comes out as gibberish is from another spirit, and not from God. If that were not so then those would never dream of believing on a pre-trib secret rapture theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and those would not be so easily deceived by those pastors that preach for His people to fly to save their souls.

 

You only THINK they spoke in all those languages, when it is clearly written that they HEARD in those languages.

Again you have proved your lack of understanding.

 

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God?  What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?

What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)

 

Do WE as believers have any say in this?

 

LAMAD

 

 

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate?  I missed it.

 

I guarantee it is settled in heaven!  The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Where in the Bible does it say that?  I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

 

Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed  - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

...

 

Per His parable of the ten virgins, remember He closes the door on the five foolish virgins. The timing He gave within that parable is for the very end of this world, the eleventh hour before midnight that represents the day of His coming. For His Church in this last generation today, He gave a special warning to not be deceived, because of the coming Pseudo-Christ working a level of wonders and miracles on earth to deceive that has never happened before on earth, nor will ever again.

 

Why would you write of this parable of the marriage? THose who believe in a posttrib coming will MISS that marriage and supper, unless they get there by losing their head. They will be guests.  The bride will have been there in heaven for the 7 years.

 

You are right about the deceived part: Jesus warned again and again about that.  How amazing then that so many are deceived even today.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The parable of the ten virgins of Matt.25 is not a parable of marriage. And there is no such thing as a pre-trib secret rapture.

 

All of Christ's Church still alive today will go through the great tribulation He taught, excepting those of us who die beforehand of some other cause.

 

Keep on peddling your false doctrines: you will surely be left behind. Your preconceived glasses are indeed very thick. Perhaps you need to study what a "bridegroom" is. Did you forget about Rev. 19 and the marriage in heaven, with the bride prepared? Did you also overlook Luke 12:36? Indeed, one day Jesus will return to earth from a wedding in heaven.

 

LAMAD

[Salty]

My response in Red.

 

 

 

No, there is no pre-tribulational secret rapture doctrine found preached by Christ or by any of His Apostles in God's Word.

 

Where did you get such thick preconceived glasses? Perhaps it is you who have been listening to the wrong teachers. You have serious problems in your theories. You think you have the right to rearrange Revelation. I know instantly, just from that, that your theories will be proven wrong.

 

If you wish to learn the TRUTH about the rapture, Paul is the only writer of the New Testament that wrote about it. You cannot find Paul's rapture anywhere else. In 1 Thes 5, Paul shows us that His rapture comes as the trigger for a HUGE earthquake caused by  the dead in Christ rising. That earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction." Understand, when God brings together the atoms that once made up those human bodies laying in the grave, it will cause an earthquake. We know that from Mat. 27: "the earth did quake ...and the graves were opened..."  That same earthquake "sudden destruction" is the very same earthquake at the 6th seal. That seal, along with the 7th is still sealing the book that was in the Father's right hand. Inside the book, once all 7 seals are broken, will be the rest of the book of Revelation. It will be impossible for any trumpet to sound before all the seals are broken so the scroll book can be unrolled further to reveal the trumpets. Yet, you want to rearrange, proving to us you have little understanding of this great book.

 

In 1 Thess.5, Paul showed when the time of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church is, when he showed the 'day of the Lord' will come "as a thief in the night". The Pre-Trib Rapture School has long since taught that is the time of Christ's second coming with that phrase "as a thief in the night". That's correct because Jesus Himself said He comes "as a thief" when He was speaking to the Church. But the Pre-Trib school still... mis-preach that timing as not... being the 'day of the Lord' like both Paul and Peter said (2 Pet.3:10). The 7th trumpet is the time of the great earthquake on the day of The Lord, which also is the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church. It is the timing of the 6th seal, and also the 7th vial.

 

 

 

Paul did not change his mind in 2 Thes. Any reader with a little common sense understands that people would not be upset upon hearing they were IN the Day of the Lord, if they had been previously taught that the rapture would be at the end. All they would have to do is wait a short while. However, if they had been taught that the rapture was the trigger for the day, then we understand why they were so upset they wrote to Paul. It is very simple: they thought they had MISSED the rapture.

 

Per the OT prophets, the 'day of the Lord' comes at an instant (Isaiah). That is... the time of the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked that Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5. And that is the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church also.

 

In 2 Thess.2, Paul told them to not believe false ones, nor anyone that was passing letters as if they were of the Apostles. It reveals there were false brethren among them distorting... the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. That obviously has continued to today also with the Pre-trib rapture doctors, because the early Church was post-trib. For 1800 years the Christian Church had believed and taught a post-trib coming and gathering by Jesus Christ. Only in the 1800's did John Darby begin pushing the Pre-trib secret rapture theory among churches in Britain. And he actually got the idea from the Irvingite movement in Britain.

 

 

Paul tells us that the man of sin cannot be revealed until FIRST the one restraining him is removed or departed or taken out of the way. Yet, in verse 3b the man if sin is revealed, proving in Paul's argument that the one restraining has been "taken out of the way. "  What has departed or been taken out of the way? Of course it is the rapture of the church. It is the Holy Spirit working through the church that is restraining the revealing of the man of sin. There is too much prayer in his way.

 

So we see Paul teaching that the rapture or departing of the one restraining is taken out of the way FIRST, then the man of sin is revealed.

 

Because of your listening to Pre-trib doctors, you have totally missed what Paul was teaching there in 2 Thess.2 about that coming false one. He showed that false one will come PRIOR to Christ coming and gathering of His Church from the very first 1-4 verses of that chapter. You cannot just go further down in the chapter to modify that first section of verses to try and say he meant Jesus comes before that false one. Even 2 Thess.2:8 tells on you, because Paul showed that Christ's coming is when that false one is revealed with the "brightness of His coming." 

 

The one taken out of the way is NOT the Church, nor The Holy Spirit. It is the Archangel Michael per Dan.10 who is withholding Satan in heaven now, and then when the war in heaven of Rev.12:7 forward happens, that is when Satan will be cast down to this earth, in person, with his angels. So there, I just revealed to you who that "man of sin" and "that Wicked" truly is that's coming which will do works of deception after the working of Satan, because it will be Satan.

 

 

 

But there is mention of the doctrine, those who teach God's people to 'fly' to save their souls, and God is against those who teach such a thing. That is written, and it's in Ezekiel 13.

 

You don't even know what this verse means. It certainly is not talking about being caught up by the Holy Spirit. It is talking about witchcraft. Will you accuse the Holy Spirit of witchcraft when He snatched Enoch?

 

The Pre-trib Rapture doctrine of men is a type of 'witchcraft', no doubt about that at all. It is a doctrine of deceivers. And that is who God is talking about in that Ezek.13 chapter that deceive His people, teaching them to fly to save their souls.

 

Ezek.13

²⁰ Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

 

 

Acts 1 & 2 a requirement now to understand God's Holy Writ??? Is that some 'new and improved' doctrine those preachers are teaching you now??

 

Just as I suspected, you have bypassed these chapters. God gave a command, not a suggestion. It is the Holy Spirit that was send to be our teacher. Yet, you hope to be taught when rejecting Jesus' mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit. Anyone with a lick of common sense knows that the church is sadly lacking in being taught by the Holy Spirit, since we have hundreds of denominations that all disagree. Oh, they all THINK they have  been taught by Him.  Common sense proves they have not. Revelation knowledge of the word of God comes from praying in the Holy Spirit. Much of the church has no idea what that is. They cannot fulfill Jude 20.

 

I haven't bypassed Acts 1 & 2 at all. You haven't understood them. It's John 12 thru 16 where Jesus first taught about The Holy Spirit being our Teacher, and will teach us all things, being The Comforter. If you would listen to The Holy Spirit you might have learned why... there are so many divisions among the brethren today. Christ and His Apostles told us directly about that too. It was partly covered first back in the Old Testament Books, even starting in Gen.3 about the 'emnity'.

 

 

I will tell you where God shows us how to study and understand His Word. It's per the example in Isaiah 28. Acts 1 is about our Lord Jesus's ascent and declarations of His Church according to His promises, including the gift of The Holy Spirit. Acts 2 is about Pentecost when The Holy Spirit descended upon His Apostles, speaking the tongue that went forth as known languages to all present who heard them speak in their own dialects of birth. It was not some 'unknown' tongue, for that word "unknown" in the KJV of 1 Cor.12-14 is not in the Greek NT manuscripts.

 

You cannot even tell us the truth about the rapture. How then can you teach us how to understand His word. You have been proving all along that you do not.  If you were an astute student of the bible, you would KNOW that Paul wrote that ALL tongues is speaking unto God and NO ONE understands. You would know that there are different divisions of tongues: one:  as a personal prayer language; two: as a sign to unbelievers, where God causes people to HEAR in their own language (they are still speaking to God as Paul wrote, speaking gibberish - but God causes people to hear in their own language. Go back and read it again: Luke wrote that they all HEARD in their own language. If you can put two and two together, these were praying the very same tongues as Paul was explaining in 1 Cor. 14. Three: as a special gift to give a message in tongues to be interpreted in a meeting.  So once again you show us you lack understanding of the truth of God's word.  If I were you, I would lock myself in a closet and tell God you will not come out until you receive exactly what they received in Acts 2:4.

 

In 1 Cor. Paul was not... speaking of some unknown tongue, the word unknown in the KJV was added by the translators. In Acts 2 per the Greek, EVERYONE understood what was spoken on Pentecost by Christ's Apostles. Each heard in their own dialects (dialektos in the Greek) of their birth. It was UNDERSTOOD by all. That ain't some idea where only a few among a group has to interpret for the rest, for ALL on that day understood in their own languages of birth. And that... is the TRUE manifesting of the cloven tongue of Pentecost. Anything else is fake.

 

As a matter of fact, some pagan gods have been heard mentioned by leaders in the Charismatic movement which were claiming to be speaking the cloven tongue by The Holy Spirit (research the Kundalini spirit from the eastern pagans, same kind of manifestations in those kind of churches). Writhing in the floor, laughing uncontrollably, barking like dogs, shaking uncontrollably, running up and down the aisle like a mad man, those are not signs of The Holy Spirit. They are signs of another spirit. God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as it is in all True Churches of Christ Jesus.

 

 

 

If you're trying to point specifically to The Holy Spirit being promised His Church, then you'll find a more detailed description of that promise in John 12 through 16.

 

To understand God's Holy Writ, which was given by The Holy Spirit, one must be under the influence of The Holy Spirit. And per Apostle Paul speaking the cloven tongue of Pentecost was only one administration by The Holy Spirit.

 

So are you trying to make speaking an 'unknown' tongue a requirement to understand God's Holy Writ? I know several brethren personally that claim to speak that cloven tongue, but it comes out as gibberish, when the true cloven tongue of Pentecost went out as languages (Greek glossa), and everyone present understood in their own dialects of birth. Dialect means even the slang of one's area of birth. It was that accurate. The one claimed which comes out as gibberish is from another spirit, and not from God. If that were not so then those would never dream of believing on a pre-trib secret rapture theory that began with John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and those would not be so easily deceived by those pastors that preach for His people to fly to save their souls.

 

You only THINK they spoke in all those languages, when it is clearly written that they HEARD in those languages.

Again you have proved your lack of understanding.

 

LAMAD

 

 

[Last Daze]

 

 

 

 

What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God?  What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?

What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)

 

Do WE as believers have any say in this?

 

LAMAD

 

 

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate?  I missed it.

 

I guarantee it is settled in heaven!  The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Where in the Bible does it say that?  I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

 

Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed  - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Sounds more like the personal testimony agrees with your interpretation of the Word.  Paul's testimony is in the Bible.  The others you refer to are not.  Big difference.

 

Concerning my reading about thieves, have you ever heard of "setting up the straw man"?  Its a logical fallacy where someone tries to bolster their position by presenting an argument that is generally true but irrelevant.  That's what you've done.  The fact that stealing is a sin, and that thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God is true but completely irrelevant to the idea of extra-Biblical testimony being used to interpret God's word.

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

 

 

What if a believer CHOOSES to just walk right out of the Father's hand? We came in by an act of our will - so what if someone wills to walk away from God?  What if someone gets deep enough into sin they just wish to remain? What if a believer just won't let go of unforgiveness?

What if a believer just wants to remain in a certain lifestyle God hates? (I could go on and on.)

 

Do WE as believers have any say in this?

 

LAMAD

 

 

Did someone finally settle the free will vs. predestination debate?  I missed it.

 

I guarantee it is settled in heaven!  The truth is, there are many in hell today that were once born again. Jesus has taken people to hell and shown such people, and explained why they were there. One for example, was a thief. but believed her stealing was just a "little" sin. Now she knows the truth.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Where in the Bible does it say that?  I don't accept extra-Biblical sources as being on par with the infallible word of God.

 

Of course it is not equal to the written word. But when personal testimony AGREES with the Word, we should accept it. Did you not see that some of what Paul wrote as personal testimony that has now become a part of the written word? I am not speaking of one or two examples: there are MANY that all agree. Finally, did you not read that theives will not make it to heaven? Paul gave us a list and that was included. If someone is a thief, and belives that is a small sin that does not need to be confessed  - they do not qualify for heaven. It is plain and simple.

 

LAMAD

 

 

Sounds more like the personal testimony agrees with your interpretation of the Word.  Paul's testimony is in the Bible.  The others you refer to are not.  Big difference.

 

Concerning my reading about thieves, have you ever heard of "setting up the straw man"?  Its a logical fallacy where someone tries to bolster their position by presenting an argument that is generally true but irrelevant.  That's what you've done.  The fact that stealing is a sin, and that thieves will not inherit the kingdom of God is true but completely irrelevant to the idea of extra-Biblical testimony being used to interpret God's word.

 

NO strawman. I mentioned one lady seen in hell and Jesus telling WHY she was there: she was a thief, but though that her sin was a "small" sin and would be overlooked. Obviously she never repented. In fact Jesus told the young lady He took to visit hello that He had tried to get to to stop her stealing for some time. She was killed instantly in a car accident so had no time to repent.

 

Here is the scripture that fits this sin:

 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

New International Version (NIV)

⁹ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men ¹⁰ nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

She was a thief, stealing from a pharmacy, and asking her friend that worked there to help her steal. AS I said, she was not qualfied for heaven, although she was born again.

 

Another born again lady seen in hell: her preacher pastor husband had an affair with a younger lady in the church, and it was found out. The wife was VERY angry with her pastor husband, and two or three days later shot herself. She died with unforgiveness in her heart, since she had not forgiven her husband. She was not qualifed for heaven.

 

Paul's writing is very clear and could be understood by a beginning reader. The truth is, once we are born again, God expects us to live holy lives. Again it is written that without holiness NO ONE will see God. I did not write that.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Salty wrote:

 

In 1 Thess.5, Paul showed when the time of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church is, when he showed the 'day of the Lord' will come "as a thief in the night". The Pre-Trib Rapture School has long since taught that is the time of Christ's second coming with that phrase "as a thief in the night". That's correct because Jesus Himself said He comes "as a thief" when He was speaking to the Church. But the Pre-Trib school still... mis-preach that timing as not... being the 'day of the Lord' like both Paul and Peter said (2 Pet.3:10). The 7th trumpet is the time of the great earthquake on the day of The Lord, which also is the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church. It is the timing of the 6th seal, and also the 7th vial.

 

Indeed, 1 Thes. 5 does show when His NEXT coming FOR His saints will be, for the theme there is the rapture. Did you notice that Paul mentions the Day of the Lord just three verses after the classic rapture verse? Does this tell us that His coming IS the Day of the Lord? Certainly it does not. If we take the entire passage, we see that the rapture (starting with the dead in Christ) is the trigger for the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord begins there with the sudden destruction and wrath of God. Paul is clear that the sudden destruction is the beginning of God's wrath, and tells us the bride of Christ will have no appointment with His wrath, while those left behind will not escape it.

 

Have you ever fired a gun? The gun does not go off until the trigger is pulled. The trigger pulling and the gun going off are two separate events, with "lock time" dividing the two. When Jesus comes as the thief in the night, FOR His bride, and the dead suddenly raise, that event is the trigger. When the atoms of those billions of saints come together instantly around the world, it will cause a worldwide earthquake, which will be the "sudden destruction" and the start of the Day of the Lord. Jesus does not descend to the earth, but rather returns to heaven with His saints, and returns to the mansions he has prepared for the Bride. (John 14)

 

The following events of the "Day of the Lord" as in the trumpet judgments must wait for the 144,000 to be sealed. Then the 7th seal is broken in heaven, signifying the 70th week of Daniel is starting. Then the trumpet judgments begin. Make no mistake: they are a part of the Day of the Lord, and a part of God's wrath. Notice in Joel 1 about the cattle being perplexed because they have no pasture. Joel tells us it is the Day of the Lord, and John confirms this  - telling us the Day begins at the 6th seal, which will be followed by the trumpet judgments.

 

This is all clearly written. Only preconceived glasses prevent you from understanding what is written. Your preconception is that the 6th seal is in the wrong place and must be moved to chapter 19 when Jesus comes on the white horse. WRONG! The scroll cannot be unrolled until the 7th seal is broken. THEN the scroll will be unrolled to reveal the trumpet judgments.

 

The Day comes as a "thief in the night," because Jesus comes as the trigger for the Day, and the Day of His wrath begins instantly with the Dead in Christ rising, causing "sudden destruction."

 

Don't be misled! Jesus will come again 7 plus years later, and AGAIN as a thief. NO ONE will know the Day nor the Hour of that coming on the white horse either.  Clearly there are TWO MORE comings of our Lord, first to get His bride, and later WITH His bride.

 

Finally, show us a verse to prove an earthquake on earth at the 7th trumpet.  You are mistaken. There will be an earthquake when the two witnesses rise, but they will rise at the end of the 70th week. You have missed the fact that 11:4  - 11:13 (the tale of the two witnesses) are written as a parenthesis and not in John's chronology. The man of sin arrives in Jerusalem 3 1/2 days before the abomination. The two witnesses arrive at the same time (or a few seconds after) BECAUSE the man of sin arrives and God knows why he has come to that great city. So they begin to testify 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week, then testify for most of the second half of the week, being killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. Therefore, that earthquake written in 11:13 will actually take place at the 7th vial. How amazing, John shows us there is an earthquake then. It is the SAME earthquake.

 

Therefore you are mistaken yet again: NO earthquake at the 7th trumpet. That trumpet will sound in heaven to mark the exact midpoint of the week. Always remember, any theory that must rearrange (The 7th trumpet ...which also is the timing ... of the 6th seal, and also the 7th vial.) John's God given timing and sequencing and chronology will most certainly be proven wrong. NO ONE has any right to rearrange what John wrote. It is the same as adding to are taking away from this great book. Furthermore, there is NO NEED to rearrange. When one approaches this book with no preconceptions, they will find it in perfect order as written.

 

LAMAD

[iamlamad]

Salty wrote,

In 2 Thess.2, Paul told them to not believe false ones, nor anyone that was passing letters as if they were of the Apostles. It reveals there were false brethren among them distorting... the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of the Church. That obviously has continued to today also with the Pre-trib rapture doctors, because the early Church was post-trib. For 1800 years the Christian Church had believed and taught a post-trib coming and gathering by Jesus Christ. Only in the 1800's did John Darby begin pushing the Pre-trib secret rapture theory among churches in Britain. And he actually got the idea from the Irvingite movement in Britain.

 

Paul corrected what they had been told: that the Day had started and they were IN that day. How amazing: there are people here today telling us that the 70th week has started. How silly  is that? The rapture must come first. The One restraining or holding back the revealing of the man of sin is the Holy Spirit working through the church. When the church is "taken out of the way" or has been "departed," THEN the man of sin will be revealed. Sorry, you keep peddling nonsense. PAUL was part of the early church and He certainly taught a pretrib rapture.

 

LAMAD