The Beast From The Sea

[other one]

Problem is that he seems to guide me in a more literal way than he does you, concerning some scripture.   I'm truly not sure how to deal with that.  

 

 

i grew up in the Church of Christ and when i was about 17 or so we came to the conclusion that what they were teaching me was not Biblical in many instances.....   we won't talk about the next year and a half, but after that little spurt I just rejected everything I had ever been taught and read the whole Bible about ten times.   When I got bored with that I branched off into looking for the true new testament church......   and searched all the major denominations by actually getting involved with the churches and learning different doctrines of the main denominations.   Still haven't found one that covers the whole Bible so we just settled down at a Nazarene Church because it has very loving people.

 

Add to that my work for nearly 40 years put me into driving three to six thousand miles a month so when tapes of the Bible and CD's came out I found myself listening to the Bible many times a year and the new testament sometimes three times a month for nearly 20 years.

When you go through scripture that much, you,for the most part, make your beliefs line up with all scripture; and over the years I have narrowed my dogmatic beliefs down to a precious few.   I have the opinion that most people end up making the Gospel much more complex than it really is.   I have also personally decided that prophecy is written so that you really won't know the details of the future until it happens.....  thus the many different scenarios we see in this thread.  sad thing to me is that at one time or another I might/would have agreed with most of them until I listened to the Bible again.

 

Then BibleSoft brought out PC Study Bible which lets me read the original manuscripts one word at a time in the original languages they were written in.....   

 

I think you could say that I learned not to trust much of anyone for my personal beliefs.   Then after agreeing with Hal Lindsey about 1988 being the end of the world day, I even have to question myself now days.

 

Add to that getting directly involved in the Occultic, Kabbalistic, Demonic workings of the dark side itself which led to the new age movement and global politics and economies and you have a whole world belief and biblical end time story that not even books could properly describe......

 

So I say all that to say that I join in these conversations to throw in an occasional thought when I see something that needs to be corrected according to the gospel of Sam.   I must not be too bad for I've been here for over ten years and George hasn't thrown me out yet.  

 

So am I some smart thing that everyone should listen to........     well i still am pretty sure, like Hal Lindsey, that the world really ended in 1988...    and I still have all the scripture to prove it.

 

Prophecy isn't written to foretell the future, it's written to qualify that it is written by God.  That it's message about salvation is true and trustworthy......    but I do believe with all my heart that only the very outline of things are foretold so we don't loose heart as we see the details unfold.   But the details are way way to complex to know before hand.

 

 

Did you know that the fallen angels are creating new Nephilim again and have been as much as they can discretely  since the late 1940's.....    how much would that change people's outlook in these threads if everyone understood that.

[Salty]

 

 

Wait a minute. You haven't addressed those things I covered in my previous post, like this...

 

Isaiah 14

¹² How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

¹³ For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

¹⁴ I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

¹⁵ Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

¹⁶ They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms";

 

Why do you expect me to continue the conversation with you when you skip over matters like that above Isaiah 14 Scripture where God refers to Lucifer (Satan) as a 'man' with, "Is this the man..."?

Salty

 

I could say the same for you?  I have tried to address mostly all you have stated, but everysingle word, is not necessary, because your answer is avoiding my direct questions to you.

 

 

Let's be fair now. You've been presenting questions on this matter quite a bit. And a lot of times when I answer I put the answer in a form of a question, which is similar to what our Lord Jesus did. It doesn't mean just pass over it because you may feel you're being trapped if you answer. I'm not trying to trick or trap you; but only just to get you to consider other Scripture you may have missed. That's essentially what we're all trying to do here with helping each other.

 

So like I raised a few posts ago, about God calling Satan (Lucifer) a man, what about that Isaiah 14:12-16 Scripture example?

[Salty]

Salty

 

....

 

As much as you are trying to convince me that Satan is referred to as a man, I have to disagree.

The scripture above we have to discern, is the "people" saying this,

people who did not even know or believe that Satan exists....had no idea. It's their statement, not Gods.

A christian with knowledge knows he was more than a man, he was an angel. 

A high ranking angel, which used his wisdom and god given abilities for wickedness.

 

 

It is our Heavenly Father speaking those Isaiah 14:12-16 verses about Satan using the king of Babylon as a symbolic title for him. He is declaring what His people will be saying about Satan in that future time, because if you'll notice the context of Isaiah 14:4 forward, the timing is after this end of this world when Satan is cast into the pit per Rev.20. Within that, our Heavenly Father is also declaring what Satan himself has said he will do against Him. When it gets to verse 8, 9, 15, 16, it's about Satan in his pit prison, with people looking at him and saying, "Is this the man...?"

 

 

Furthermore about the fact that the angels also have the 'image' of man, and even our Lord Jesus back in the OT when He appeared to Abraham, here's another Scripture for you to explain...

 

Gen.18

1 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

² And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

³ And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

⁴ Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

⁵ And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

 

Gen.19

1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;

² And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

³ And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

⁴ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:

⁵ And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, "Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

 

In the Gen.18 chapter, two of the men that appeared with our Lord to Abraham go to Sodom to rescue Lot and family. Only The Lord remained speaking with Abraham. Then in Gen.19 the two men appear to Lot and that Scripture declares them as "two angels", but the wicked sodomites saw them as "men".

 

Acts 1

¹⁰ And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

¹¹ Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

Are we to think those "two men" there just suddenly walked upon them? No, they were two angels.

 

Same thing here...

 

Luke 24

³ And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

⁴ And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

 

 

Did you look up the meaning of the Archangel Gabriel's name in Hebrew?

 

All these examples Biblically reveal that angels have the image of man. It's up to you whether you accept those Scripture evidences as written or not.

[Sister]

Salty

 

I am not disagreeing with you that angels appeared as men.

My point is they are not men.

They are angels.

 

1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

So you infer that because angels appeared as "men"

then Satan who is their chief can appear as a man also,

and he will appear as the false prophet.

 

I beg to differ.

Even though Satan has free reign, he would have limits also.

God would never allow that.

Satan has always manipulated man to break God's commandments, and man leads others to do the same.

No where in the bible does it refer to Satan being the false prophet himself.

What you are insinuating, is what you have put together yourself.  It's the picture in your head you have formed from all the other scriptures.

I don't form that same picture from the scriptures,

but form the clear picture that the false prophet is a man whom Satan has chosen to rule on his behalf.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

His coming is "after" the working of Satan.  Satan being the other one.

Why would Satan then need to use "lying wonders".  He has mighty powers.

The false prophet would need these "lying wonders" because his power is not his alone, but given to him,

and with the help of man too, the 10 kings.

 

It makes no difference anyway, if we worship the false prophet, we worship Satan.

It's the same as if worshiping Satan directly.

[Defending the Name]

Salty

 

I am not disagreeing with you that angels appeared as men.

My point is they are not men.

They are angels.

 

1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

So you infer that because angels appeared as "men"

then Satan who is their chief can appear as a man also,

and he will appear as the false prophet.

 

I beg to differ.

Even though Satan has free reign, he would have limits also.

God would never allow that.

Satan has always manipulated man to break God's commandments, and man leads others to do the same.

No where in the bible does it refer to Satan being the false prophet himself.

What you are insinuating, is what you have put together yourself.  It's the picture in your head you have formed from all the other scriptures.

I don't form that same picture from the scriptures,

but form the clear picture that the false prophet is a man whom Satan has chosen to rule on his behalf.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

His coming is "after" the working of Satan.  Satan being the other one.

Why would Satan then need to use "lying wonders".  He has mighty powers.

The false prophet would need these "lying wonders" because his power is not his alone, but given to him,

and with the help of man too, the 10 kings.

 

It makes no difference anyway, if we worship the false prophet, we worship Satan.

It's the same as if worshiping Satan directly.

Even him is the false prophet of the religious mystery Babylon worldly system that is lamb like in appearance, meaning it is christian in appearance. This false prophet is the counterpart of John the Baptist whose job is to prepare the way for his master satan, however the false prophet of the world wide unified religious system will prepare the ten patriarchal, that are ten patriarchs of the main ten christian denominations (kings) who have no physical kingdom to give their power over to him, in a unified religious system. This preparation allows the man of sin who is the beast of the bottomless Pitt to emerge in pomp and ceremony to be received as the earthly messiah.

So the man of sin has his own John the Baptist like prophet to prepare the way for him.

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

[Salty]

 

Salty

 

I am not disagreeing with you that angels appeared as men.

My point is they are not men.

They are angels.

 

1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

So you infer that because angels appeared as "men"

then Satan who is their chief can appear as a man also,

and he will appear as the false prophet.

 

I beg to differ.

Even though Satan has free reign, he would have limits also.

God would never allow that.

Satan has always manipulated man to break God's commandments, and man leads others to do the same.

No where in the bible does it refer to Satan being the false prophet himself.

What you are insinuating, is what you have put together yourself.  It's the picture in your head you have formed from all the other scriptures.

I don't form that same picture from the scriptures,

but form the clear picture that the false prophet is a man whom Satan has chosen to rule on his behalf.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

His coming is "after" the working of Satan.  Satan being the other one.

Why would Satan then need to use "lying wonders".  He has mighty powers.

The false prophet would need these "lying wonders" because his power is not his alone, but given to him,

and with the help of man too, the 10 kings.

 

It makes no difference anyway, if we worship the false prophet, we worship Satan.

It's the same as if worshiping Satan directly.

 

 

Instead of trying to limit what 'we' think God would or would never do, we should instead heed what He has shown us will happen per His Word. When He says the world will wonder at that beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, when they behold him (Rev.17:8), that's what will happen, the world will be fooled by his appearance also including the miracles he is going to work on earth, seeing him as God, just as Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. He will appear with the image of 'man' on earth, because that's the likeness image God created him with.

 

Further, when our flesh body dies, the image likeness our spiritual body has is the image of man. Just because it's the image of the heavenly does not mean it has to only happen with a flesh body, which thinking is actually to counter what God's Word reveals.

[Salty]

 

Even him is the false prophet of the religious mystery Babylon worldly system that is lamb like in appearance, meaning it is christian in appearance. This false prophet is the counterpart of John the Baptist whose job is to prepare the way for his master satan, however the false prophet of the world wide unified religious system will prepare the ten patriarchal, that are ten patriarchs of the main ten christian denominations (kings) who have no physical kingdom to give their power over to him, in a unified religious system. This preparation allows the man of sin who is the beast of the bottomless Pitt to emerge in pomp and ceremony to be received as the earthly messiah.

So the man of sin has his own John the Baptist like prophet to prepare the way for him.

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

 

Problem is, there is no Scripture for prior to Christ's coming that reveals the role of the false prophet except the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and that Rev.13 "another beast" description directly parallels the false one our Lord Jesus forewarned of in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 with doing great signs, wonders, and miracles.

Thus the "another beast" and "false prophet" are the same one.

[Defending the Name]

Salty

 

I am not disagreeing with you that angels appeared as men.

My point is they are not men.

They are angels.

 

1 Corinthians 15:40   There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 

So you infer that because angels appeared as "men"

then Satan who is their chief can appear as a man also,

and he will appear as the false prophet.

 

I beg to differ.

Even though Satan has free reign, he would have limits also.

God would never allow that.

Satan has always manipulated man to break God's commandments, and man leads others to do the same.

No where in the bible does it refer to Satan being the false prophet himself.

What you are insinuating, is what you have put together yourself.  It's the picture in your head you have formed from all the other scriptures.

I don't form that same picture from the scriptures,

but form the clear picture that the false prophet is a man whom Satan has chosen to rule on his behalf.

 

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

His coming is "after" the working of Satan.  Satan being the other one.

Why would Satan then need to use "lying wonders".  He has mighty powers.

The false prophet would need these "lying wonders" because his power is not his alone, but given to him,

and with the help of man too, the 10 kings.

 

It makes no difference anyway, if we worship the false prophet, we worship Satan.

It's the same as if worshiping Satan directly.

 

Instead of trying to limit what 'we' think God would or would never do, we should instead heed what He has shown us will happen per His Word. When He says the world will wonder at that beast that ascends from the bottomless pit, when they behold him (Rev.17:8), that's what will happen, the world will be fooled by his appearance also including the miracles he is going to work on earth, seeing him as God, just as Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4. He will appear with the image of 'man' on earth, because that's the likeness image God created him with.

 

Further, when our flesh body dies, the image likeness our spiritual body has is the image of man. Just because it's the image of the heavenly does not mean it has to only happen with a flesh body, which thinking is actually to counter what God's Word reveals.

Good.

Point taken.

[Defending the Name]

Even him is the false prophet of the religious mystery Babylon worldly system that is lamb like in appearance, meaning it is christian in appearance. This false prophet is the counterpart of John the Baptist whose job is to prepare the way for his master satan, however the false prophet of the world wide unified religious system will prepare the ten patriarchal, that are ten patriarchs of the main ten christian denominations (kings) who have no physical kingdom to give their power over to him, in a unified religious system. This preparation allows the man of sin who is the beast of the bottomless Pitt to emerge in pomp and ceremony to be received as the earthly messiah.

So the man of sin has his own John the Baptist like prophet to prepare the way for him.

 2 Thessalonians 2:9   Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

Problem is, there is no Scripture for prior to Christ's coming that reveals the role of the false prophet except the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and that Rev.13 "another beast" description directly parallels the false one our Lord Jesus forewarned of in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 with doing great signs, wonders, and miracles.

Thus the "another beast" and "false prophet" are the same one.

Rev. 13:11 is the second beast that takes over where the first beast left of from. First beast being the first Babylon religion that came up from the sea (cradle of civilisation in the Middle East). The second angel message in Rev. 14:8 shortly after the first angel message declares Babylon is fallen. Keep in mine that first first angel message is of the commencement of the preaching of the gospel by those who keep the commandments (LAW) of God, and the faith (PROPHESY/testimony) of Jesus. These are the two symbolic witnesses who are from every kindred and tongues from all the nations of the world. So the second beast must encompass the new covenant age, shortly after the first beast (religious system) falls and is followed by another apostate religious system that is lamb like, meaning is christian in appearance.

Out of the second beast religious enterprise comes a false prophet or religious leader who tries to unify other religious heads. The other religious heads are ten patriarchs of the main christian denominations who have not received an earthly kingdom, but give their blessings to the religious head, who is the false prophet. The platform that the false prophet of the second beast enterprise wants to prepare is a unified apostate world religion that all worship the same God in a different way. So the false prophet initiates the great falling away from the faith by this world wide religious unification and peace movement. This false prophet is symbolised as the black dragon, because black represents apostasy and the dragon gives him power to do so. At this point the dragon who is the devil has not manifested into the earthly realm. Just recap that the first beast was influenced by the red dragon, where red represented a persecuting power that chased the disciples from city to city.

Mathew 24:4-51 is the most misunderstood versus in all of the gospel. Both preterists and futurists have got it totally wrong. Jesus here is giving a summary of not one, two or three events, he is summarising the complete new covenant age. Remember the new covenant age is symbolised as the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week , since messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. Jesus gives a starting to finish summary on events from versus 4 to 15, with the abomination that maketh desolate as the end event some thousands of years later after the wars and rumours of wars. Verse 16 goes back again to the start and is described now in more detail and is not a continuation of verse 15. It is amazing that most religious scholars have fallen for this. Verse 16 continues with the starting theme in the first century where there were rumours of wars and a panic amongst the people of Judea in those times. This verse has nothing to do with the abomination that maketh desolate in verse 15. Jesus then again immediately projects thousands of years into the future in verse 21 by now portraying a shocking picture on how humans will be slaughtered in those days. The many Christ's he is depicting is described in the singular as he, the man of sin, the abomination that maketh desolate aka satan who appears on the scene, manifesting as Christs of many religions of the second beast, mystery Babylon.

I replied that Salty previously made a valid point that satan who is a fallen angel will take on many forms in many places to try and deceive the world. For example the Buddhist will have their version of Christ, the Jews have their version of Christ and so do all other religions. Notice the manifestations of many Christs of the many religions are associated with the singular, when Jesus says:

Matthew 24:26

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The he that Jesus is speaking of is the abomination that maketh desolate, the beast of the bottomless Pitt who now can freely manifest himself in the world anywhere he pleases.

Jesus disassociates his coming from the manifestations of the king of this world satan, by saying that he doesn't come like he does, he comes as a light and not a manifested humanoid form to be seen by people of earth. Remember Jesus said the world will never see him again and that he will come back to only his followers, to make his dwelling with them in spirit and within the context of Pentecost.

We now have a real problem because satan comes after the martyrdom of the symbolic two witnesses, who represent anyone on earth who holds the testimony of Jesus. The church that is the symbol of the seven hilled city is almost destroyed, except for the few remaining elect, requiring God calling off Satan's onslaught before there is no body that represents God left on earth. So in this respect the days are shortened and then the man of sin is revealed permanently as a person amongst his earthly kings. Then God unleashes a massive interstellar retaliation and begins the process of collapsing the universe on itself. Verse 30 does back to the start again during the first century. If you didn't know Jesus liked to go back and forth on the same point repeatedly from different angles and if you thought that the Olivetti discourse is one continuous sequence of events, then your either are a preterists or a futurist and be both are in error.

versus 30 to 51 have nothing to do with any of the previous summary of events. Jesus in these versus is talking about what happens to the individual. He points to the central theme of being faithful onto death and then being reunited with him at his appearing. So Jesus is telling the faithful you don't need to worry about start to finish of the new covenant age events from the first century to the abomination that maketh desolate some thousands of years later, you need to be concerned about yourselves, within the immediate time frame that is your day and hour of mortality, when you die to be presented before me for judgement.

So Jesus gives you a repeated summary of start to finish events at different vantage points from the first century right up to the end where the abomination that maketh desolate makes his entry into the world. Then he provides instruction to his followers on what happens to them regardless of these worldly events.

In summary the coming of the Son of man has been happening to countless departed and this is how all eyes shall see him, because all are destined to die once, to then be presented before The Lord for judgement. The high priest has already seen the brilliant coming of The Lord.

Matthew 26:64

"You have said so," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

The from now on happened to the high priest when he eventually died to be presented before his maker for judgement.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 just focuses on the coming do the abomination that maketh desolate towards the end of the new covenant age and the end of the world.

The coming The Lord can come for you any time when you die, so be faithful onto death is the central theme of Christianity.

There is not going to be any earthly manifestation of the true messiah for it is us that are drawn onto him through death and onto resurrection. We can't come in the presence of the real messiah until we first die.

[Salty]

 

 

Problem is, there is no Scripture for prior to Christ's coming that reveals the role of the false prophet except the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward, and that Rev.13 "another beast" description directly parallels the false one our Lord Jesus forewarned of in Matt.24:23-26, and Paul in 2 Thess.2:3-4 with doing great signs, wonders, and miracles.

Thus the "another beast" and "false prophet" are the same one.

Rev. 13:11 is the second beast that takes over where the first beast left of from. First beast being the first Babylon religion that came up from the sea (cradle of civilisation in the Middle East). The second angel message in Rev. 14:8 shortly after the first angel message declares Babylon is fallen. Keep in mine that first first angel message is of the commencement of the preaching of the gospel by those who keep the commandments (LAW) of God, and the faith (PROPHESY/testimony) of Jesus. These are the two symbolic witnesses who are from every kindred and tongues from all the nations of the world. So the second beast must encompass the new covenant age, shortly after the first beast (religious system) falls and is followed by another apostate religious system that is lamb like, meaning is christian in appearance.

 

 

The Rev.13:11 "another beast" is a person, the 2nd beast. The 1st beast of Rev.13:1-2 is a beast 'kingdom'. In Rev.13:2 Jesus compares the 1st beast kingdom to the Dan.7 beast kingdoms of old. So He made the Book of Daniel part of that. Per Dan.2, the final beast kingdom is shown as feet of part iron mixed with clay, and is together with all the previous beast kingdoms when Jesus (the Stone) comes to smite it upon its feet, which is for the end of this world, still future.

 

Rev.14:8 with the angel quoting the Isa.21 phrase, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen", is for the very end at Christ's coming, on the Day of The Lord. It's timing is linked with when Jesus smites the final beast upon its feet per the Book of Daniel.

 

I do not adhere to SDA's interpretations of the 3 angels' messages. Those 3 angels of Rev.14 are merely giving a SUMMARY of events for the end, covering from the time of "great tribulation" all the way up to Christ's return, and then right after with Jesus and His elect upon Zion. The timeline jumps very quickly there, so it's not to be used as a map for the proper order of events in Christ's Revelation (1st angel: time after Christ's coming; 2nd angel: Christ's witnesses of The Gospel during the tribulation; 3rd angel: warning against false worship of the beast.) One who understands the proper order of events for the end by grasping God's Word as whole will understand those 3 messages in their proper order of fulfillment, but not by that Rev.14 alone.

Out of the second beast religious enterprise comes a false prophet or religious leader who tries to unify other religious heads. The other religious heads are ten patriarchs of the main christian denominations who have not received an earthly kingdom, but give their blessings to the religious head, who is the false prophet. The platform that the false prophet of the second beast enterprise wants to prepare is a unified apostate world religion that all worship the same God in a different way. So the false prophet initiates the great falling away from the faith by this world wide religious unification and peace movement. This false prophet is symbolised as the black dragon, because black represents apostasy and the dragon gives him power to do so. At this point the dragon who is the devil has not manifested into the earthly realm. Just recap that the first beast was influenced by the red dragon, where red represented a persecuting power that chased the disciples from city to city.

 

 

That's really wild supposition, those ideas not written. The 2nd beast is a specific entity, a person. He has 2 horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. It actually will be the "dragon", because in the previous Rev.12 chapter we were shown that Satan and his angels are to be cast out of the heavenly down to earth for the end, and a major WOE is given for those upon the earth. Then the titles of serpent and dragon are used interchangeably there, but only as the "dragon" when we get to Rev.13. Even at Rev.12:3-4 we are shown a beast kingdom of ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, that Satan originally rebelled against God with in the world of old, revealing the one of Rev.13 is his final attempt at that prior to Christ's return.

 

The final Rev.13:1-2 beast kingdom will engulf ALL nations and peoples, AND religions upon the earth. It will not be specific Christian heads as the ten horns (ten kings). It will be ten world kings over all nations and peoples.

 

There is NO mention of the false prophet in Rev.12 nor Rev.13; only in Rev.19:20, and in the Greek of Matt.24:24 (pseudoprophetes = a false prophet). The one mentioned there in Matt.24:24 is equated with the same pseudochristos (a pseudo Christ) also mentioned there, which is the 2nd beast of Rev.13:11 forward that does those great signs, wonders, and miracles on earth in the sight of men. It will be Satan himself, on earth, appearing with the image of man, fulfilling BOTH of those roles as false prophet and false Christ.

Mathew 24:4-51 is the most misunderstood versus in all of the gospel. Both preterists and futurists have got it totally wrong. Jesus here is giving a summary of not one, two or three events, he is summarising the complete new covenant age. Remember the new covenant age is symbolised as the remaining half of Daniel's 70th week , since messiah was cut off in the midst of the week. Jesus gives a starting to finish summary on events from versus 4 to 15, with the abomination that maketh desolate as the end event some thousands of years later after the wars and rumours of wars. Verse 16 goes back again to the start and is described now in more detail and is not a continuation of verse 15. It is amazing that most religious scholars have fallen for this. Verse 16 continues with the starting theme in the first century where there were rumours of wars and a panic amongst the people of Judea in those times. This verse has nothing to do with the abomination that maketh desolate in verse 15. Jesus then again immediately projects thousands of years into the future in verse 21 by now portraying a shocking picture on how humans will be slaughtered in those days. The many Christ's he is depicting is described in the singular as he, the man of sin, the abomination that maketh desolate aka satan who appears on the scene, manifesting as Christs of many religions of the second beast, mystery Babylon.

 

 

I disagree about Matt.24. It's easy once one realizes Jesus was giving 7 signs of the end there that parallel the Seals of Rev.6.

 

What Jesus is summarizing are the events that the FINAL generation on earth will see, just prior to and at His coming. Anything other than that is just men's suppositions which men create to make fit their own traditions.

 

I replied that Salty previously made a valid point that satan who is a fallen angel will take on many forms in many places to try and deceive the world. For example the Buddhist will have their version of Christ, the Jews have their version of Christ and so do all other religions. Notice the manifestations of many Christs of the many religions are associated with the singular, when Jesus says:

Matthew 24:26

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

The he that Jesus is speaking of is the abomination that maketh desolate, the beast of the bottomless Pitt who now can freely manifest himself in the world anywhere he pleases.

 

 

I never said Satan takes on many 'forms'. He has the image of man like all the angels do. But he takes on the role of the "false prophet" and the pseudo-Christ for the end.

 

And you are correct, the context of Matt.24:23-26 is singular.

 

Jesus disassociates his coming from the manifestations of the king of this world satan, by saying that he doesn't come like he does, he comes as a light and not a manifested humanoid form to be seen by people of earth. Remember Jesus said the world will never see him again and that he will come back to only his followers, to make his dwelling with them in spirit and within the context of Pentecost.

 

 

Rev.1 tells us that when our Lord Jesus returns, EVERY EYE will see Him. That means the wicked on earth will 'see' Him coming in the clouds also.

 

It's true He contrasted the way the pseudo-Christ comes in with how He returns per the Matt.24 Scripture. Won't deny that. But all will see His coming like Rev.1 declares, which proves there is no 'secret' coming like a pre-trib rapture.

We now have a real problem because satan comes after the martyrdom of the symbolic two witnesses, who represent anyone on earth who holds the testimony of Jesus. The church that is the symbol of the seven hilled city is almost destroyed, except for the few remaining elect, requiring God calling off Satan's onslaught before there is no body that represents God left on earth. So in this respect the days are shortened and then the man of sin is revealed permanently as a person amongst his earthly kings. Then God unleashes a massive interstellar retaliation and begins the process of collapsing the universe on itself. Verse 30 does back to the start again during the first century. If you didn't know Jesus liked to go back and forth on the same point repeatedly from different angles and if you thought that the Olivetti discourse is one continuous sequence of events, then your either are a preterists or a futurist and be both are in error.

 

 

The problem is with your understanding of Rev.11 events. The "dragon" or "beast that ascends from the bottomless pit", is already there in Jerusalem reigning when God's two witnesses are there prophesying. That's who kills God's two witnesses per that Rev.11 chapter.

 

The "seven heads" we are told in Rev.17 are "seven mountains". They are not seven Churches, they are seven powers over the earth. The beast of old that Satan rebelled with per Rev.12:3-4 also had those "seven heads", so that idea cannot apply to any Christian structure, nor even Rome.

 

The early Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries were futurists. (But not in the sense of the later Futurist movements by John Darby, Scofield, etc., and the pre-trib rapture movements). So understanding that Christ's Olivet Discourse is still 'future' to us is not a Futurist doctrine. It's the doctrine the early Church fathers held, that some events in prophecy are still future, even for the very end of this world.

versus 30 to 51 have nothing to do with any of the previous summary of events. Jesus in these versus is talking about what happens to the individual. He points to the central theme of being faithful onto death and then being reunited with him at his appearing. So Jesus is telling the faithful you don't need to worry about start to finish of the new covenant age events from the first century to the abomination that maketh desolate some thousands of years later, you need to be concerned about yourselves, within the immediate time frame that is your day and hour of mortality, when you die to be presented before me for judgement.

 

 

Matt.29-31 cover the events of His coming and gathering of His Church.

Matt.32-34 covers His parable of the fig tree.

Matt.35-51 covers His warnings of the day of His coming, to be watching and aware.

 

So I don't know WHERE you're getting all that, "Jesus is telling the faithful you don't need to worry about start to finish of the new covenant age events...", for that is what that whole Matt.24 chapter is about! Have the ones you heed also told you don't need to study the OT Books either? I would never... listen to those men you're listening to on that.

 

 

So Jesus gives you a repeated summary of start to finish events at different vantage points from the first century right up to the end where the abomination that maketh desolate makes his entry into the world. Then he provides instruction to his followers on what happens to them regardless of these worldly events.

 

 

OK, I've realized by now that you have no intention of actually supporting Biblically what you throw out here on this forum, but just want the chance to teach doctrines of men you've chosen to heed.