Where is the Body of Christ in the Millennium?

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Oh don`t be too hasty my dear friend. This is going to take a bit of looking into God`s word. You have yet to back up your reasoning with scripture.

 

1. The wife/bride. Can you give me scriptures?

 

2. Jude 14. The word we know in Greek is `hagio,` sacred, holy. Now that can mean saints or angels. Thus we need more scriptures.

 

3. Clothed in `fine linen, white & clean,` is also a description of the holy angels who came out of the temple. (Rev. 15: 6) Thus we need more scriptures.

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

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I'm never hasty, love.  Well maybe a little when eating 

 

1. The wife/bride. Can you give me scriptures?

 

 

(2 Corinthians 11:2) "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

 

(Ephesians 5:30-32) "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.  {31} For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.  {32} This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

 

 

2. Jude 14. The word we know in Greek is `hagio,` sacred, holy. Now that can mean saints or angels. Thus we need more scriptures.

 

 

Is there any mention of Angels in Revelation 19??  My Bible says Saints.  

 

40   //  agiov  //  hagios   //  hag'-ee-os  // 

from hagos (an awful thing) [cf   53  ,   2282  ]; TDNT - 1:88,14; adj

AV - holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229

1) most holy thing, a saint 

 

And it's the same word used here....(Revelation 19:8) "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

We don't need any more Scriptures.

 

3. Clothed in `fine linen, white & clean,` is also a description of the holy angels who came out of the temple. (Rev. 15: 6) Thus we need more scriptures.

 

 

Yes and it's also the same exact description of the same exact attire of the Wife, that's spoken of 2 Passages before HE prepares to Return.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Have you ever played chess? Well there is a `play,` that goes like this, Move pawn, then knight, then bishop, knight & bishop again, & there you have `check mate,` in a few moves. I did say it might come to this when you wanted to `slam dunk `me. So we`ll see -

 

Let`s just look at Jude 14 together.

 

`Enoch, ....prophesied...."Behold the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,...`  (Jude 14)

 

Your Bible says `saints,` but we know that not all translations are accurate, thanks to your comments. Oh but you say yours is the KJ. Well then you never can tell.  So if we can`t trust an interpretation, then what can we trust. Why of course, God`s Word.  So let`s look where this quotation came from. This scripture in Jude is a quote from Deuteronomy.

 

`The Lord came from Sinai,.....& He came from the midst of ten thousand holy ones;....` (Deut. 33: 2) 

 

And then the next `move,` (are you getting the `chess moves` Enoch?) is to find out who these `holy ones` are. So we now go to the Psalms  where David tells us by the Holy Spirit who these holy ones are.

 

 

`The chariots of God are myriads, thousands upon thousands; the Lord is among them as at Sinai, in holiness.`   (Ps. 68: 7)

 

We can then go to Dan. 7: 10  & 2 Kings 6: 17 which tells us of God`s angelic chariots. Thus I believe these `holy ones,` are angels.

 

 

Now the word `hagios` holy one is used for a variety of holy, sacred things & places - holy angels, holy apostles & prophets, holy city, holy priesthood, holy nation, holy women, Holy Ghost, holy commandment, holy faith...... so it is not just used for `saints.`

 

 

Finally on this point let us go to the one who is bringing these holy ones & find out what He says about them. So would you, Enoch like to discover what Jesus said about who He is going to bring with Him when He comes in power & great glory? And then could you tell us, please?

 

 

Blessings, Marilyn.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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Have you ever played chess?

 

 

Yes I have back in the day.

 

 

You don't have a Checkmate here, love.  Your rebuttal is right on the edge of a Strawman (Fallacy)----The Jude Passage is just background.  The main proof is....And I already showed you IN CONTEXT:

 

 

Is there any mention of Angels in Revelation 19??  My Bible says Saints. 

40   //  agiov  //  hagios   //  hag'-ee-os  //

from hagos (an awful thing) [cf   53  ,   2282  ]; TDNT - 1:88,14; adj

AV - holy 161, saints 61, Holy One 4, misc 3; 229

1) most holy thing, a saint

And it's the same word used here....(Revelation 19:8) "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

 

This is stated just before Christ Returns with HIS armies...which are clothed in: (Revelation 19:14) "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

 

 

You're still in Checkmate until you remove or somehow obfuscate these passages from Rev 19.  And, That's not happening 

 

Are ALL of the armies "The Church"?  Probably not...I thought that they are angels also.  Are ALL of the armies Angels?  Not from these passages....Clearly and Unequivocally, "The Church"---clothed in fine linen, white and clean---- follows HIM.

 

 

Moreover, this whole sidebar is, as I said, moot anyway.  The Main Point is "The Church" is in Heaven WHILE the "Great Tribulation" is ongoing.

 

These passage ALONE .....

 

(Revelation 19:7-9) "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.  {8} And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  {9} And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

 

 

.....scuttle any wisp of credulity for a Post "Great Trib" Rapture....it's nonsensical. 

[Last Daze]

Have you ever played chess? Well there is a `play,` that goes like this, Move pawn, then knight, then bishop, knight & bishop again, & there you have `check mate,` in a few moves. I did say it might come to this when you wanted to `slam dunk `me. So we`ll see -

 

 

Sounds like an attack on the King's Bishop pawn...something like:

 

1. e4  b6

2. Nf3  Nc6

3. Bc4  Bb7

4. Ng5  h6

5. Bxf7++

 

Did you know that the fastest possible checkmate is:

 

1. f3  e6

2. g4  Qh4++

 

Of course, both are very unlikely.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes, I think you have it there. I`d have to check on the letters, not sure of those.

 

 

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I haven`t finished in my goodies bag for you yet.  But have to go out today, so will prepare my comments probably for tomorrow. You aint gettin away this easily, mate.

 

 

 

Marilyn.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Last Daze,

 

Yes, I think you have it there. I`d have to check on the letters, not sure of those.

 

 

Hi Enoch2021,

 

I haven`t finished in my goodies bag for you yet.  But have to go out today, so will prepare my comments probably for tomorrow. You aint gettin away this easily, mate.

 

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

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Very well,

 

Here, add this to your list....

 

The Term "Angels" occurs 81 Times in the New Testament; 23 Times in Revelation alone....

 

32   //  aggelov  //  aggelos   //  ang'-el-os  // 

from aggello [probably derived from   71  , cf   34  ] (to bring tidings);

TDNT - 1:74,12; n m

AV - angel 179, messenger 7; 186

1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger

from God

 

This Begs the Question then: If GOD wanted to denote "Angels" in Revelation 19, why didn't John just say "Angels" like the 81 Other Times...?

 

 

AND, Are there any passages where you find both Angels and Saints mentioned together??...

 

(Revelation 8:2-4) "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.  {3} And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.  {4} And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

 

Clear Distinction, love.

 

 

Checkmate  

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

`Checkmate!!!!!` What gave you that idea. You haven’t seen all my side of the board. And we haven`t hardly begun to open up the scriptures yet, dear friend. Be patient. I like to go one step at a time so we & others can follow the topic.

Now you have bought up some very valid questions that deserve looking into. So let`s start.
You said –

`If God wanted to denote `angels,` in Rev. 19, why didn`t John just say `angels,` like the other 81 other times....?`

That is a great `purpose` question Enoch, (Why did God...`)We don`t get many of those questions, just rehashing positions. Had you thought we also could say `Why didn`t God denote `saints` in Rev. 19.`

 

 

So the big question is `What is God`s purpose for writing `army` & not `angels &/or saints.`

`And the armies which are in heaven, .....were following Him on white horses.` (Rev. 19: 14)

Army – Gk. `strateum,` a body of troops, from the base of `stratos,` an army, & fig. the angels, host.

 

 

Now Jesus tells us some vital information of who He is bringing with Him at this time.

`For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels;...` (Matt. 16: 27)
``...the Son of Man ...when He comes in His glory, & the glory of the Father & of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

 

 

And what are Jesus & His angelic army going to do? Why yes, war against the beast & his army.

 

`And I saw the beast & the kings of the earth & their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, & against His army.` (Rev. 19: 19)

 

 

To me that is quite clear from scripture that when Christ returns in power & great glory to fight against the beast & his armies, that Christ brings His angelic army with Him. For we know from scripture that Christ is the Captain of the angelic host. (Joshua 5: 13 – 15)

And I can hear you say – that you partly agree with that. As you have said –

`Are all of the armies `the Church?` Probably not....I thought that they are angels also...`

It seems to me you are now on the defence, dear friend. I will address the topic of - the wife/bride/marriage, next.
I do appreciate opening up scriptures with you Enoch & also have a bit of lighthearted banter.

 

Bless you, bro, Marilyn.





 

Edited November 7, 2014 by Marilyn C

[ARGOSY]

 

To me that is quite clear from scripture that when Christ returns in power & great glory to fight against the beast & his armies, that Christ brings His angelic army with Him. For we know from scripture that Christ is the Captain of the angelic host. (Joshua 5: 13 – 15)

And I can hear you say – that you partly agree with that. As you have said –

`Are all of the armies `the Church?` Probably not....I thought that they are angels also...`

It seems to me you are now on the defence, dear friend. I will address the topic of - the wife/bride/marriage, next.

I do appreciate opening up scriptures with you Enoch & also have a bit of lighthearted banter.

 

Bless you, bro, Marilyn.

 

Hi Marilyn,

 

Yes the angels are in that army, but most of us would see the obvious link in these two descriptions: 

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

Sure anyone can hang on to their beliefs, and very little can be "proved" because prophecy is symbolic, but you may find most others see the obvious link between the two groups, even knowing that angels also wear clean white robes. The descriptions are just too closely matching, so that most would assume that after the resurrection, after the wedding feast, we join the angelic armies.

[ARGOSY]

also Marilyn...a correct understanding of Joel 2, Ezekiel 38/39, Armageddon, Daniel 11 etc etc is that the final war is a surprise war on Jews, Jews are only attacked for a short period just before the second coming/day of the Lord.

This quick "war" against Jews is in sharp contrast to another "war" that has been going on for 3.5 years until the second coming. The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people".  Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years.  This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.

 

So, when I read Daniel 7, the 3.5 years of persecution mentioned there is also referring to "the holy people", I believe this is us believers, who will inherit the kingdom:

21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[b]

[Last Daze]

 

The 3.5 year war is against the saints, us believers. This period of persecution leading up to the second coming is clearly recorded in Rev 13, described as 42 months of the beast's control and with this, war against "God’s holy people".  Also in Rev 12, we have the protection of Israel (the woman), and the persecution of "her offspring" for 3.5 years.  This 3.5 year period of persecution precedes the second coming.

 

I agree that the false prophet wages war against the saints (elect, believers, church) for 42 months.  One thing that I've recently come to realize is that the great tribulation is only a subset of that period of time.  Let me explain.

 

The great tribulation starts just after the abomination of desolation comes about.  Jesus said that those days are cut short.

 

Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.  Matthew 24:22

 

How are those days cut short?  With the opening of the sixth seal.

 

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn..." Matthew 24:29-30a

 

This corresponds to the sixth seal:

 

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”  Revelation 6:12-17

 

The sixth seal marks the end of the great tribulation.  The false prophet and those who worship him now have to deal with the wrath of the Lamb.  This is not to say that believers are out of the woods but rather that the persecution against them is greatly reduced.  The rest of the world is preoccupied with dealing with God's wrath as the seventh seal brings forth the seven trumpets / bowls.  Then at the seventh (last) trumpet the resurrection / rapture event takes place, on the last day:

 

and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.  Matthew 24:30b-31

 

Notice how in Matthew 24 that at first people see the sign of the Son of Man.  This corresponds to the sixth seal.  Then people actually see the Son of Man (not the sign of) which is the seventh trumpet.  There is a gap in the middle of Matthew 24:30 where the wrath of God is being poured out.  At least that's what makes the most sense to me at this point.