The Seven Seals

[Salty]

Did I remark that the signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse are the events of the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials?

 

The events He gave in Matt.24 & Mark 13 directly parallel the events and order of the Seals in Rev.6. So all those Bible chapters should be studied together at the same time.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes I agree with you as you said - 
 

Thusly, I believe the end is done with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial (777).

 

Marilyn.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Salty,

 

Yes I agree with you as you said - 

 

Thusly, I believe the end is done with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial (777).

 

Marilyn.

 

 

Which One?....They are three very distinct sets of judgments; are you saying these occur @ the same time?  

 

(Revelation 8:1) "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

(Revelation 16:17) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

 

How can there be: Silence (Seal) with Great Voices in Heaven, saying (Trumpet)........ and A Great Voice out of The Temple (Vial)...@ the same time? 

 

 

Moreover.....

 

The Seven Seals:

1st Seal:  (White Horse) Went forth Conquering and to Conquer

2nd Seal: (Red Horse) Take Peace from the Earth and Men should kill one another.

3rd Seal:  (Black Horse) Famine

4th Seal:  (Pale Horse): And Power was given to them over The Fourth Part of The Earth with Death: pestilence, famine, sword, beasts of the Earth.

5th Seal:  The Martyrs under the Alter.  Promised to be avenged but to wait.

6th Seal:  Great Earthquake, Sun Black, Moon as Blood.  Heavens depart as a Scroll.  Mountain and Island moved from their Place.  Wrath of The Lamb is come.  Then Sealing of the 144,000, Tribulation Saints are robed in Heaven.

7th Seal:  Silence in Heaven 1/2 hour

The Seven Trumpets are often referred to as "The Judgments of the Thirds"...

1st Angel:  the third part of Trees were burnt up.

2nd Angel: the third part of the sea became as blood and the third part of sea creatures died and the third part of ships were destroyed.

3rd Angel:  the third part of rivers became bitter (Wormwood)

4th Angel:  the third part of the sun, the third part of the moon, the third part of stars

5th Angel: A Break with the Thirds Bottomless pit the beast and locusts

6th Angel:  a third part of men were killed

7th Angel:  A Break with the thirds 

 

Clearly the Seals and The Trumpets are not the same.  

 

 

Vials/Bowls:

 

(Revelation 16:3) "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

 

But the 2nd Trumpet says only a Third Part of sea creatures died.  Please reconcile how only a third part and..... everything died, @ the same time....?

 

(Revelation 16:4) "And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood."

 

This is Comprehensive., "ALL".  But the 3rd Trumpet says that only a third part became bitter.  Please reconcile how a third part can become bitter and all turn to blood @ the same time...?

 

(Revelation 16:8) "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire."

 

How can the Sun turn Black (6th Seal), a Third Part be Smitten (4th Trumpet) and @ the same time be "Powered Up" to Scorch Men with Fire and Great Heat (4th Vial)??

 

 

Please connect any of these even remotely to any of, either the Trumpets or the Seals:

 

(Revelation 16:2) "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

 

(Revelation 16:10) "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

 

(Revelation 16:12-13) "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

 

(Revelation 16:17-18) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.  {18} And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

[Marilyn C]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Nice to chat with you again.

 

 

 

Marilyn C, on 26 Dec 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Hi Salty,
Yes I agree with you as you said -
Thusly, I believe the end is done with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial (777).

Marilyn.

 

 

Enoch2021 said `Which One?....They are three very distinct sets of judgments; are you saying these occur @ the same time? `

 

Enoch we can see that there is a sequence to the `end.` And this is how I believe it is.

 

 

Judgment Scroll............6th Seal (Great Earthquake & Armageddon)..................7th Seal (Silence)

Trumpets..............6 (Great Army to Arm.)..................7(Kingdom proclaimed)......

Vials..............6(Euphrates died up)...................................7(Earth utterly shaken).

 

 

6th Seal - `I looked when he opened the 6th seal, & behold, there was a great earthquake; & the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, & the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, & every mountain & island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave & every free man, hid themselves in the caves & in the rocks of the mountains & said to the mountains & rocks, "Fall on us & hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne & from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of his wrath has come & who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

7th Trumpet - `Then the 7th angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The Kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & his Christ, & he shall reign forever & ever.....Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, & the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, & great hail.` (Rev. 11: 15 & 19)

 

7th Vial - `Then the 7th angel poured out his bowl into the air, & a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying "It is done!" And there were noises & thunderings & lightnings; & there was a great earthquake, such a mighty earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, & the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Then every island fled away & the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great. ` (Rev. 16: 17 - 21)

 

7th Seal - `When he opened the 7th seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.`  (Rev. 8: 1)

 

`And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, & shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord; for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.` (Zech. 2: 12 & 13)

 

 

Thus to me I see the 7th trumpet proclaim the coming kingdom of Christ from heaven with accompanying  noises, thunderings, earthquake & great hail. Then we get the earthly view (7th vial / bowl) as we see the outcome of the judgment - earthquake, great hail, great shakings etc.

Other events are recorded elsewhere - re: Armageddon, Christ`s return, army destroyed, Mt Olives split, etc etc till finally the kingdoms of the world are the Lord`s & all flesh is silent before Him. (7th Seal)

 

 

Marilyn.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Marilyn C

[Serving]

Which One?....They are three very distinct sets of judgments; are you saying these occur @ the same time?  

 

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

 

(Revelation 16:17) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

 

How can there be: Silence (Seal) with Great Voices in Heaven, saying (Trumpet)........ and A Great Voice out of The Temple (Vial)...@ the same time?

 

 

 

I partially agree here in that the 7th seal is not the same as the 7th trump or 7th vial event.

 

 

As for the trumps & vials .. same event.

 

 

 

(Revelation 16:3) "And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea."

 

But the 2nd Trumpet says only a Third Part of sea creatures died.  Please reconcile how only a third part and..... everything died, @ the same time....?

 

 

 

My first observation would be .. "which sea"?

 

Note: 1 - A sea is not the same as an ocean!  2- there are more seas than just one sea. 

 

My 2nd observation would be: "the effects on this particular sea = 1 sea, must therefore be culminative".

 

Scripture does not say @ the same time as in instantaneously .. more like the same event culminating in it's spreading severity by means of the pouring of the first trump angels vial (trump in one hand - vial in the other). 

 

The angels blows his trumpet, heralding the event you observed as the thirds (I like that analogy btw).. thus affecting a third of  that .. (revisiting the observation) .. a third of that particular sea .. then he pours out his vial which multiplies the effects of the event to encompass that whole particular sea.. so a pause is likely between the angel blowing his trumpet before pouring his vial before moving on to the next angel.

 

 

God ALWAYS gives past examples to unlock future correlations .. so here is an example I came across whilst reading some years ago ..  

 

 

The generalization:

 

Judges 7:19 So Gideon, and the hundred men that were with him, came unto the outside of the camp in the beginning of the middle watch; and they had but newly set the watch: and they blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers that were in their hands.

 

The specifics:

 

Judges 7:20 And the three companies blew the trumpets, and brake the pitchers, and held the lamps in their left hands, and the trumpets in their right hands to blow withal: and they cried, The sword of the LORD, and of Gideon.

 

 

There is another more powerful example, but to save space, I will leave it for now ..

 

 

 

 

(Revelation 16:8) "And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire."

 

How can the Sun turn Black (6th Seal), a Third Part be Smitten (4th Trumpet) and @ the same time be "Powered Up" to Scorch Men with Fire and Great Heat (4th Vial)??

 

 

 

Valid observation, I struggled with this too .. yet .. there is an answer after much much thought.

 

BEFORE the heat strikes .. God will cause an eclipse heralded by the trumpet blast .. now cast your mind back to Genesis .. God calls the evening and the morning the first day. (evening .. night .. morning = 1 day in Gods eyes)

 

Thus the evening (the "third" end part of that day) will grow dark (leading into the night) from the eclipse, likewise extending into the third part of that same night (trumpet heralding the event) .. come morning (vial to intensify) comes the great heat. (culminating just like previous examples)

 

 

 

Please connect any of these even remotely to any of, either the Trumpets or the Seals:

 

(Revelation 16:2) "And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

 

(Revelation 16:10) "And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,"

 

(Revelation 16:12-13) "And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

 

(Revelation 16:17-18) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.  {18} And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great."

 

 

 

Okay .. lets go with this one: (trumps & vials here NOT seals of which I agree with you as being separate)

 

 

Remember, the trumpet is heralding the release of these with  added information as to the following repercussions of their release:

 

 

Revelation 9

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

 

2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

 

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

 

4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

 

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

 

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

 

7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

 

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

 

9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.

 

10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

 

11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

 

Whose repercussions effect these:

 

 

Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

 

 

Darkness does not cause pain ..thankfully God gave us added insight within the trumpet explanation .. like the sting of a scorpion .. painful ..  thus pain  correlates with the torment of being stung. 

 

 

Note: The false prophets kingdom is the entire world at this point (remembering that this event is before the nations (kings of the east etc) begin to turn on him .. meaning at that point of the turning, the path to WW3 is being set (gathering to Megiddo) .. everybody in this kingdom = Babylon the great

 

 

Side note:

 

4th Seal:  (Pale Horse): And Power was given to them over The Fourth Part of The Earth with Death: pestilence, famine, sword, beasts of the Earth.

 

 

The fourth part of the earth given over to him is not actually his kingdom .. it is actually the place where he is warring / subduing during his rise.. the fourth part being the middle east!! ( he goes through Israel (doublecrossing Israel as per Isaiah) right down to Egypt, not forgetting the many other countries (over there = 4th part) who will be overthrown by him & his armies = "them"  (as above) during that campaign "designed" to bring peace. (Israel actually being the real focus!!)

 

 

So overall, I agree the seals are not the same time sequence as the trumps & vials .. instead .. the trumps & vials are events taking place within the seals .. just information being brought forth .. (drag & drop .. copy & paste etc)

 

Think on it a while .. thanks Enoch.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Serving

[Kan]

Salty made an observation which I believe many good scholars have done, that the seven seals have a language and imagery which corresponds to all other sets of seven in Revelation. The seven churches, seals, trumpets, angels, plagues, thunders etc.

They all seem to culminate with the Lord's return or some similar end.

 

The idea that all of Revelation is sequential from beginning to end, seems like a logical approach, but too simplistic, as illustrated by the numerous and confusing interpretations.

 

If we try Salty's view, we will be surprised how it all ties together, and that each set symbolizes a different aspect covering the same time period from beginning to end. The individual sequential reckoning does not allow any further details to fall into place.

 

I would compare this style of writing very similar to Moses in Genesis who gives more than one account of creation, but going into detail of specific events with each, so that the chapters combined, not in sequential order, make the complete story.

[Salty]

Salty made an observation which I believe many good scholars have done, that the seven seals have a language and imagery which corresponds to all other sets of seven in Revelation. The seven churches, seals, trumpets, angels, plagues, thunders etc.

They all seem to culminate with the Lord's return or some similar end.

 

The idea that all of Revelation is sequential from beginning to end, seems like a logical approach, but too simplistic, as illustrated by the numerous and confusing interpretations.

 

If we try Salty's view, we will be surprised how it all ties together, and that each set symbolizes a different aspect covering the same time period from beginning to end. The individual sequential reckoning does not allow any further details to fall into place.

 

I would compare this style of writing very similar to Moses in Genesis who gives more than one account of creation, but going into detail of specific events with each, so that the chapters combined, not in sequential order, make the complete story.

 

Not to slight anyone who disagrees with me, but I must say to that, I could not have said it better!

 

In our Lord Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He was giving us the signs of the end which happen to parallel the order of events given in the Seals of Rev.6. And because the events of the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial show events that culimate in the ending of this present world and establishing of His Kingdom, that parallel is also the very last sign of the end He gave in His Olivet Discourse, prior to His going into the parable of a fig tree to mark the final generation that would see 'all' those signs. Thus paying close attention to the 'type' of events in the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials in comparison with His Olivet Discourse is a lot of what led me to this conclusion, and also of course after praying to our Heavenly Father through His Son about it and having done my homework in both Old Testament and New Testament Books.

[Salty]

Shalom, Salty.

 

 

 

Rev.6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

 

Rev.11

¹³ And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

¹⁴ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

¹⁵ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

¹⁶ And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

¹⁷ Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

¹⁸ And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

¹⁹ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

 

Rev.16

¹⁷ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

¹⁸ And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

¹⁹ And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

²⁰ And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

²¹ And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

 

Those are more than similarities, they are the same event timing.

 

The day of Christ's wrath is on the last day of this world with His second coming, on the day of The Lord. These events of God's wrath were also given in the OT prophets about the day of The Lord events. Apostle Paul reiterated some of them with the "as a thief" timing in 1 Thess.5, as did Peter in 2 Pet.3:10 about the time of God's consuming fire burning the elements.

 

If the 6th Seal was to happen prior to the trumpets and vials, then it would mean the dragon's reign continues after Christ's coming on the day of The Lord with His final wrath of this world still pending. But per that 6th Seal, that is the time of God's wrath on the last day of this world, which is part of the day of The Lord events when Jesus returns.

 

Sorry, but if they were the same event, they would be recorded the same.  Much of what happens is different.  Do I really have to point out the discrepancies for you?  As one example, all have the word earthquake, but each have different levels, especially the one recorded in the 7th vial where it is stated that this earthquake will be worse then any other earthquake, while the one in the 6th seal just claims a great earthquake, and the 6th trumpet where one tenth of the city fell and killed seven thousand men.  You may be surprised that the first two are not the worst earthquake that has ever happened on this earth.  Look for yourself ... http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/most_destructive.php

 

What is going to happen when the 7th vial is poured out will be greater than any other earthquake, ever.  The all escalate in strength as His warnings/wrath pour out to mankind.

 

 

Per your view, Jesus was crucified four different times, since there are Four Gospel records that do not record His crucifixion with the same exact wording between them.

 

In Matt.24, it's a "great tribulation". In Mark 13 it's a time of "affliction". Not same wording, but same event.

 

So no legalist scribe-Phariseeism please, reserve that for the "Jew's religion" which is against Christianity.

 

 

So, are we PURPOSELY FORGETTING that Paul was a "Pharisee of the Pharisees?" Don't you know that "Pharisee" ("Paruwsh") means a "Separatist?" Not a "Separatist" FROM something, but a "Separatist" UNTO God's Word! They were NOT a bad group of people ... at first. However, the BRAND of "P'rushiym" (the plural of "Paruwsh") that existed during Yeshua`s (Jesus') lifetime were HYPOCRITES! They pushed THEIR interpretation of God's Word, which included a rigorous man-made set of rules that were NOT in the Scriptures but were supposed to make the mitzvot (the commandments) easier to keep.

 

And, a "scribe" is a Torah-teacher. And, he was one who was also responsible for copying God's Word to keep it preserved and legible. The Torah is simply Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy - what Christians call "the Pentateuch."

 

And, when are you going to realize that the TRUE "Jews' religion" is the worship of YHWH Elohiym, the LORD God, who is the God of Avraham, Yitschaq, and Ya`aqov/Yisra'el (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel)! And, don't think that they didn't have information about God's Messiah (Mashiach)! The prophecies of Daviyd and Yesha`yahu (David and Isaiah) are quite clear that He would be God's Son when He was revealed to them! Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are clear that He would suffer and die for the transgressions of others. The Jews' TRUE "religion" is NOT the same as that which has devolved today into an anti-Messiah form of "Judaism."

 

Please don't vilify that which you simply don't understand or trust. This original "Jews' religion" is the FOUNDATION for the Way, which we call "Christianity" today.

 

Yes, I recognize that not all the Pharisees sought to murder our Lord Jesus, and that some of them believed He was The Messiah. So when I point out the Pharisees that sought to kill our Lord Jesus I am speaking of a specific group among them, along with the scribes which in that time were mostly not even of the seed of Israel (1 Chron.2:55). Remember the subject of Jude 1:4 about the "certain men crept in unawares" subject. I'm well familiar with it as applied to those who had crept into those sects and priesthood of Israel by the time of Jesus' first coming.

[Enoch2021]

Hi Enoch2021,

 

Nice to chat with you again.

 

 

 

Marilyn C, on 26 Dec 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Hi Salty,

Yes I agree with you as you said -

Thusly, I believe the end is done with the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial (777).

Marilyn.

 

 

Enoch2021 said `Which One?....They are three very distinct sets of judgments; are you saying these occur @ the same time? `

 

Enoch we can see that there is a sequence to the `end.` And this is how I believe it is.

 

 

Judgment Scroll............6th Seal (Great Earthquake & Armageddon)..................7th Seal (Silence)

Trumpets..............6 (Great Army to Arm.)..................7(Kingdom proclaimed)......

Vials..............6(Euphrates died up)...................................7(Earth utterly shaken).

 

 

6th Seal - `I looked when he opened the 6th seal, & behold, there was a great earthquake; & the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, & the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, & every mountain & island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave & every free man, hid themselves in the caves & in the rocks of the mountains & said to the mountains & rocks, "Fall on us & hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne & from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of his wrath has come & who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6: 12 - 17)

 

7th Trumpet - `Then the 7th angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The Kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord & his Christ, & he shall reign forever & ever.....Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, & the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, & great hail.` (Rev. 11: 15 & 19)

 

7th Vial - `Then the 7th angel poured out his bowl into the air, & a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying "It is done!" And there were noises & thunderings & lightnings; & there was a great earthquake, such a mighty earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. Now the great city was divided into three parts, & the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Then every island fled away & the mountains were not found. And great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great. ` (Rev. 16: 17 - 21)

 

7th Seal - `When he opened the 7th seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.`  (Rev. 8: 1)

 

`And the Lord shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, & shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the Lord; for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.` (Zech. 2: 12 & 13)

 

 

Thus to me I see the 7th trumpet proclaim the coming kingdom of Christ from heaven with accompanying  noises, thunderings, earthquake & great hail. Then we get the earthly view (7th vial / bowl) as we see the outcome of the judgment - earthquake, great hail, great shakings etc.

Other events are recorded elsewhere - re: Armageddon, Christ`s return, army destroyed, Mt Olives split, etc etc till finally the kingdoms of the world are the Lord`s & all flesh is silent before Him. (7th Seal)

 

 

Marilyn.

 

 

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"Thus"??     Thus, from What??  You didn't provide any rationale   .  All you did was post Scripture Verses, that btw.... when Scrutinized, don't support your position but undermine it.

 

And what on Earth does Zechariah 2:12 have to do with it?

 

 

Please answer the poignant questions (that you "Skipped") that I posted (My Rebuttal) to reconcile and clarify "your" position.

 

 

Is this your Support ??  ....

 

 

(Revelation 11:15-19) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.  {16} And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,  {17} Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.  {18} And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.  {19} And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail."

 

(Revelation 16:17-21) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.  {18} And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.  {19} And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.  {20} And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.  {21} And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

 

 

This is a Primary School Compare and Contrast: "Let's Paint by the Numbers" (just a few)....

 

7th Trumpet (Great VOICES in heaven), 7th Vial ( A Voice, out of the Temple).  Are these the same?

 

7th Trumpet (24 Elders), 7th Vial ( No 24 Elders).  Are these the same?

 

7th Trumpet ("an earthquake"), 7th Vial ("a Great Earthquake"....such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.) Are these the same?

 

Are you saying that a Magnitude 3.4 Earthquake that happened 7 hours ago in Puerto Rico is the Same as a Magnitude 9.5 Earthquake?  Since GOD'S WORD is UBER Precise....What distinguishes the 7th Trumpet Earthquake from the 7th Vial Earthquake.... Anything?

 

Does this seem like an Increasing of Intensity to you?

 

Same concept here...

 

7th Trumpet (Great Hail), 7th Vial (Great Hail..... every stone about the weight of a talent).  Is there a Difference Here?

 

We just had a Hail Storm not long ago ....they were about the size of a Nickel.  Down in Oklahoma where my brother-in-Law lives, they get Hail Storms on occasion the size of Baseballs.

 

How Much does a Talent Weigh?

 

Does this seem like an Increasing of Intensity to you?

 

 

7th Seal (every mountain & island was moved out of its place.)  7th Vial  (every island fled away & the mountains were not found.)

 

 

So you're saying these 2 are speaking to the same event....

(Revelation 6:14) "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

(Revelation 16:20) "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Thus (according to you):  "MOVED out of their places"  =  "fled away" and "were not found".

Question #1:  Can I "move" something, yet still have it not "Fled away"?  If I "Move" my Coffee Cup from my Computer Desk to my Dresser (in the same room) has it "Fled Away"?

Question #2:  Can I "move" something, yet still be able to "Find It"?

 

 

Move ---- To change in position from one point to another.  http://www.thefreedictionary.com/move

 

Found --- establish existence.  "Not" Found ---- NOT Existing. 

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

 

 

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I partially agree here in that the 7th seal is not the same as the 7th trump or 7th vial event.

 

 

Either the 7th Seal is the same as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial or it's Not.  "Partially" is Non-Sequitur (Fallacy).  It's like saying someone is "Partially" pregnant. 

 

 

As for the trumps & vials .. same event.

 

 

Actually they're not, as I have Illustrated.  It would take a Metric Ton of: Mental Gymnastics, Artistic Licence, and WORD play to avail otherwise.

 

alas....

 

My first observation would be .. "which sea"?

 

Note: 1 - A sea is not the same as an ocean!  2- there are more seas than just one sea.

 

 

The Term "OCEAN(s)" are not in Scripture. And just because "we" gave particular names to these, denoting different "Oceans", it's a misnomer. "Though generally described as several 'separate' oceans, these waters comprise one global, interconnected body of salt water sometimes referred to as the World Ocean or global ocean." http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ocean_vs_Sea

 

And just because we delineated "sea".... (Geographical Term---- "A sea generally refers to a large body of salt water, but the term is used in other contexts as well. Most commonly, it means a large expanse of saline water connected with an ocean, and is commonly used as a synonym for ocean. http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ocean_vs_Sea) ....from "Ocean", doesn't impact in the least the clear meaning GOD gave us in Scripture.

 

If there is not a "Proper" name as in "RED" et al preceding or right after "sea".... then it denotes OCEAN (1 Ocean; SEE Above) Or otherwise depicted by the Context of each Passage where it's found.   Like these...

 

(Genesis 1:26) "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

 

(Genesis 1:28) "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

 

(Job 36:30) "Behold, he spreadeth his light upon it, and covereth the bottom of the sea."

 

(Revelation 5:13) "And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."

 

(Revelation 7:1) "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

 

(Revelation 7:3) "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

 

(James 3:7) "For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:"

 

(Hebrews 11:12) "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable."

 

(Acts 14:15) "And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:"

 

As Opposed to....

 

(Hebrews 11:29) "By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned."

 

(John 21:1) "After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself."

 

(John 6:1) "After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias."

 

 

The angels blows his trumpet, heralding the event you observed as the thirds (I like that analogy btw).. thus affecting a third of  that .. (revisiting the observation) .. a third of that particular sea .. then he pours out his vial which multiplies the effects of the event to encompass that whole particular sea.. so a pause is likely between the angel blowing his trumpet before pouring his vial before moving on to the next angel.

 

 

Yes making them two separate events not only in place but also in time.  And it's not a "Particular" sea.....it's the Ocean, as in 1 Ocean (Sea   : Above)

 

 "The Pause" as you frame it, is the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th (Trumpet) through the 2nd Vial.  A Full 8 CHAPTERS of Pause!! 

 

 

 

 

How can the Sun turn Black (6th Seal), a Third Part be Smitten (4th Trumpet) and @ the same time be "Powered Up" to Scorch Men with Fire and Great Heat (4th Vial)??

 

 

Valid observation, I struggled with this too .. yet .. there is an answer after much much thought.

 

BEFORE the heat strikes .. God will cause an eclipse heralded by the trumpet blast .. now cast your mind back to Genesis .. God calls the evening and the morning the first day. (evening .. night .. morning = 1 day in Gods eyes)

 

Thus the evening (the "third" end part of that day) will grow dark (leading into the night) from the eclipse, likewise extending into the third part of that same night (trumpet heralding the event) .. come morning (vial to intensify) comes the great heat. (culminating just like previous examples)

 

 

"after much thought"?? This is a textbook illustration of a "Just So" Story/Massive Begging The Question Fallacy.

 

Please provide Scripture Support for:

 

"BEFORE the heat strikes".....? 

 

"God will cause an eclipse heralded by the trumpet blast"......?  Full or Partial Eclipse....? 

 

"Thus the evening (the "third" end part of that day)"   Another thus, eh?  Well your "conjured" conclusion was based on or premised by a connection somehow with that of Erev and Boker (evening and morning in Genesis).  So my question is......what third part?  Erev and Boker = 2 Parts.  ??

 

 

the trumps & vials are events taking place within the seals

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I really can't deal with this.  Reality is vexing enough.