The Seven Seals

[Last Daze]

One of the forum threads was turning into a discussion of the seven seals and I thought it really should be a thread of its own.

 

As I see it...

 

Preface:  After John writes the letters to the churches he is shown what must take place "after these things" have taken place.  The things that follow, which are the seven seals, take place after the church age.  God regathers Israel and continues His plan with them.

 

First Seal:  This is the release of the beast from the abyss (Rev. 17:8).  He goes forth conquering in a covert manner since peace is not taken away until the second seal.  This beast is an evil angel that causes the multi-national government "feet of iron and clay " to come into existence.  He uses this government to help facilitate the covert ops of the ten leaders.  The ten leaders work to set an economic trap.  This evil angel is given a crown because he is the 8th king (Rev. 17:11).  He is the king of the feet of iron and clay since they have no real leader.  I believe the first seal was opened around the end of world war two.  Since then, we have seen the formation of the U.N. and the regathering of Israel.

 

Second Seal:  When this seal is opened, the ten leaders move to impose their authority on the world.  They destroy the world's capital with fire (Rev. 17:16-18) and begin their rule.  The false prophet has other ideas.  He hijacks their system and nullifies their authority.  The ten leaders realize they've been had.  Three of them turn against him.  So now there are wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation.  It will seem like the end...but the end is not yet.

 

Third Seal:  As a result of the wars the food supply is disrupted.  Rationing is commonplace.

 

Fourth Seal:  The wars rage on and are then brought to an end.  The three kings come against the false prophet probably with the intention of taking up residence.  This is seen as the death of his fledgling kingdom, a mortal wound.  However, through supernatural support from the evil angel beast, he calls fire down from heaven and destroys the attack of the three kings.  The mortal wound is healed.  The whole earth is amazed.  The false prophet has restored order and established himself as invincible.

 

Fifth Seal:  Fresh off of his supernatural victory, the false prophet enters the temple and declares himself to be God.  He has the people of the world create an image of the evil angel.  Those who don't worship it are put to death.  The issuing of the mark will expedite the identification of those who won't worship the image.  A great number of saints are martyred.

 

Sixth Seal:  The persecution of the saints is so aggressive that unless God intervenes, no saint would be left alive.  The sky opens like a scroll and everyone sees God sitting on His throne and the Lamb.  They fear the wrath that is about to come.  The saints who are alive are caught up.

 

Seventh Seal:  This seal contains the wrath of God.  It is carried out through a series of trumpets sounding and bowl being poured out.  At its conclusion, Jesus returns.

 

I would be interested in hearing other people's intrepretation of the seals or comments.  This is what makes the most sense to me, at this point in time.

[iamlamad]

 

One of the forum threads was turning into a discussion of the seven seals and I thought it really should be a thread of its own.

 

As I see it...

 

Preface:  After John writes the letters to the churches he is shown what must take place "after these things" have taken place.  The things that follow, which are the seven seals, take place after the church age.  God regathers Israel and continues His plan with them.

 

First Seal:  This is the release of the beast from the abyss (Rev. 17:8).  He goes forth conquering in a covert manner since peace is not taken away until the second seal.  This beast is an evil angel that causes the multi-national government "feet of iron and clay " to come into existence.  He uses this government to help facilitate the covert ops of the ten leaders.  The ten leaders work to set an economic trap.  This evil angel is given a crown because he is the 8th king (Rev. 17:11).  He is the king of the feet of iron and clay since they have no real leader.  I believe the first seal was opened around the end of world war two.  Since then, we have seen the formation of the U.N. and the regathering of Israel.

 

Second Seal:  When this seal is opened, the ten leaders move to impose their authority on the world.  They destroy the world's capital with fire (Rev. 17:16-18) and begin their rule.  The false prophet has other ideas.  He hijacks their system and nullifies their authority.  The ten leaders realize they've been had.  Three of them turn against him.  So now there are wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation.  It will seem like the end...but the end is not yet.

 

Third Seal:  As a result of the wars the food supply is disrupted.  Rationing is commonplace.

 

Fourth Seal:  The wars rage on and are then brought to an end.  The three kings come against the false prophet probably with the intention of taking up residence.  This is seen as the death of his fledgling kingdom, a mortal wound.  However, through supernatural support from the evil angel beast, he calls fire down from heaven and destroys the attack of the three kings.  The mortal wound is healed.  The whole earth is amazed.  The false prophet has restored order and established himself as invincible.

 

Fifth Seal:  Fresh off of his supernatural victory, the false prophet enters the temple and declares himself to be God.  He has the people of the world create an image of the evil angel.  Those who don't worship it are put to death.  The issuing of the mark will expedite the identification of those who won't worship the image.  A great number of saints are martyred.

 

Sixth Seal:  The persecution of the saints is so aggressive that unless God intervenes, no saint would be left alive.  The sky opens like a scroll and everyone sees God sitting on His throne and the Lamb.  They fear the wrath that is about to come.  The saints who are alive are caught up.

 

Seventh Seal:  This seal contains the wrath of God.  It is carried out through a series of trumpets sounding and bowl being poured out.  At its conclusion, Jesus returns.

 

I would be interested in hearing other people's intrepretation of the seals or comments.  This is what makes the most sense to me, at this point in time.

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues? There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven. So how could this first seal ever be meant to represent the Antichrist Beast? I see yet another problem: there is NOT ONE WORD in his description that would even hint of anything evil. In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

The fifth seal is the martrys of the CHURCH AGE, and have nothing to do with the martyrs of the 70th week. They are told they must wait until the last martyr is killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. In other words, they must wait for the rapture to end the church age.

 

 

LAMAD

[Montana Marv]

LAMAD

 

I see a major problem with your Seals 1-5.  They have not happened yet.

 

Rev 4:1 - After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven.  And the voice I first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said.  Come up hear I I will show you what must take place after this.  v.5 - Surrounding the Throne were 24 elders.  They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.  Then one of the elders said to me, do not weep.  See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed.  He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.

 

The Bride of Christ/Church are the only ones who are given crowns as rewards.  1 Peter 5:4 -  And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. and James 1:12 - Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

 

The Bride is already in heaven before the scroll is opened.  The Rapture has occurred.  The 24 elders are part of the Bride.

 

1 Cor 1:14 - and Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Defending the Name]

Seals 1-4 are the four horses of the apocalypse of the old covenant age and the the fifth seal is Christ opening it and raising his first fruits of the harvest who are the 144,000 old covenant saints who were waiting in their grave for the messiah. The 6th and 7th are towards the end of the 70th week when the little horn comes.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Defending the Name

[other one]

Oh my.........

[Marilyn C]

Hi Lamad,

 

I often agree with what you say, but in reference to the `white horse` I believe God`s word tells us more. Now we know that the Holy spirit wrote not just Revelation but the whole Bible so we need to look not just for `white,` but for what God`s intent is. So we go to Zechariah ch. 6 where we read of the 4 chariots & their horses. The Holy Spirit shows to Zechariah these horses of judgment. (brass symbol) & we are told that these are `the four spirits of the heavens.` One is white. Thus we can see that the Holy Spirit does not use white always to indicate holiness.

 

The Holy Spirit gave the apostle John a further revelation of these `4 spirits of the heavens,` & thus the vision he was given has some more detail. This is a big subject & needs to be studied with all scriptures that the Holy Spirit has written for us.

[Last Daze]

 

 

One of the forum threads was turning into a discussion of the seven seals and I thought it really should be a thread of its own.

 

As I see it...

 

Preface:  After John writes the letters to the churches he is shown what must take place "after these things" have taken place.  The things that follow, which are the seven seals, take place after the church age.  God regathers Israel and continues His plan with them.

 

First Seal:  This is the release of the beast from the abyss (Rev. 17:8).  He goes forth conquering in a covert manner since peace is not taken away until the second seal.  This beast is an evil angel that causes the multi-national government "feet of iron and clay " to come into existence.  He uses this government to help facilitate the covert ops of the ten leaders.  The ten leaders work to set an economic trap.  This evil angel is given a crown because he is the 8th king (Rev. 17:11).  He is the king of the feet of iron and clay since they have no real leader.  I believe the first seal was opened around the end of world war two.  Since then, we have seen the formation of the U.N. and the regathering of Israel.

 

Second Seal:  When this seal is opened, the ten leaders move to impose their authority on the world.  They destroy the world's capital with fire (Rev. 17:16-18) and begin their rule.  The false prophet has other ideas.  He hijacks their system and nullifies their authority.  The ten leaders realize they've been had.  Three of them turn against him.  So now there are wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation.  It will seem like the end...but the end is not yet.

 

Third Seal:  As a result of the wars the food supply is disrupted.  Rationing is commonplace.

 

Fourth Seal:  The wars rage on and are then brought to an end.  The three kings come against the false prophet probably with the intention of taking up residence.  This is seen as the death of his fledgling kingdom, a mortal wound.  However, through supernatural support from the evil angel beast, he calls fire down from heaven and destroys the attack of the three kings.  The mortal wound is healed.  The whole earth is amazed.  The false prophet has restored order and established himself as invincible.

 

Fifth Seal:  Fresh off of his supernatural victory, the false prophet enters the temple and declares himself to be God.  He has the people of the world create an image of the evil angel.  Those who don't worship it are put to death.  The issuing of the mark will expedite the identification of those who won't worship the image.  A great number of saints are martyred.

 

Sixth Seal:  The persecution of the saints is so aggressive that unless God intervenes, no saint would be left alive.  The sky opens like a scroll and everyone sees God sitting on His throne and the Lamb.  They fear the wrath that is about to come.  The saints who are alive are caught up.

 

Seventh Seal:  This seal contains the wrath of God.  It is carried out through a series of trumpets sounding and bowl being poured out.  At its conclusion, Jesus returns.

 

I would be interested in hearing other people's intrepretation of the seals or comments.  This is what makes the most sense to me, at this point in time.

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues? There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven. So how could this first seal ever be meant to represent the Antichrist Beast? I see yet another problem: there is NOT ONE WORD in his description that would even hint of anything evil. In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

The fifth seal is the martrys of the CHURCH AGE, and have nothing to do with the martyrs of the 70th week. They are told they must wait until the last martyr is killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. In other words, they must wait for the rapture to end the church age.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

One of the forum threads was turning into a discussion of the seven seals and I thought it really should be a thread of its own.

 

As I see it...

 

Preface:  After John writes the letters to the churches he is shown what must take place "after these things" have taken place.  The things that follow, which are the seven seals, take place after the church age.  God regathers Israel and continues His plan with them.

 

First Seal:  This is the release of the beast from the abyss (Rev. 17:8).  He goes forth conquering in a covert manner since peace is not taken away until the second seal.  This beast is an evil angel that causes the multi-national government "feet of iron and clay " to come into existence.  He uses this government to help facilitate the covert ops of the ten leaders.  The ten leaders work to set an economic trap.  This evil angel is given a crown because he is the 8th king (Rev. 17:11).  He is the king of the feet of iron and clay since they have no real leader.  I believe the first seal was opened around the end of world war two.  Since then, we have seen the formation of the U.N. and the regathering of Israel.

 

Second Seal:  When this seal is opened, the ten leaders move to impose their authority on the world.  They destroy the world's capital with fire (Rev. 17:16-18) and begin their rule.  The false prophet has other ideas.  He hijacks their system and nullifies their authority.  The ten leaders realize they've been had.  Three of them turn against him.  So now there are wars and rumors of war, nation rising against nation.  It will seem like the end...but the end is not yet.

 

Third Seal:  As a result of the wars the food supply is disrupted.  Rationing is commonplace.

 

Fourth Seal:  The wars rage on and are then brought to an end.  The three kings come against the false prophet probably with the intention of taking up residence.  This is seen as the death of his fledgling kingdom, a mortal wound.  However, through supernatural support from the evil angel beast, he calls fire down from heaven and destroys the attack of the three kings.  The mortal wound is healed.  The whole earth is amazed.  The false prophet has restored order and established himself as invincible.

 

Fifth Seal:  Fresh off of his supernatural victory, the false prophet enters the temple and declares himself to be God.  He has the people of the world create an image of the evil angel.  Those who don't worship it are put to death.  The issuing of the mark will expedite the identification of those who won't worship the image.  A great number of saints are martyred.

 

Sixth Seal:  The persecution of the saints is so aggressive that unless God intervenes, no saint would be left alive.  The sky opens like a scroll and everyone sees God sitting on His throne and the Lamb.  They fear the wrath that is about to come.  The saints who are alive are caught up.

 

Seventh Seal:  This seal contains the wrath of God.  It is carried out through a series of trumpets sounding and bowl being poured out.  At its conclusion, Jesus returns.

 

I would be interested in hearing other people's intrepretation of the seals or comments.  This is what makes the most sense to me, at this point in time.

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues? There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven. So how could this first seal ever be meant to represent the Antichrist Beast? I see yet another problem: there is NOT ONE WORD in his description that would even hint of anything evil. In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

The fifth seal is the martrys of the CHURCH AGE, and have nothing to do with the martyrs of the 70th week. They are told they must wait until the last martyr is killed as they were - as CHURCH AGE martyrs. In other words, they must wait for the rapture to end the church age.

 

 

LAMAD

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

No! Not famines on the church! The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear. Did you not read about the pale horse closely? Here is a good example of hearing from the Holy Spirit. I take no credit what-so-ever. I got stuck on the word: "them."

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It was not me, it was the Holy Spirit. I could not let go of it, so I began to bug God: WHO is "them?" He kept answering the same way, several times: "it is right there in the verse: just keep reading it."

 

As I said before, I am SLOW to learn. It took me too long to get it, but thank God I finally did.

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword? Of course the red horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the hunger: so WHO was bringing famine? Of course the black horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

If you notice, the white horse and rider is NOT INCLUDED in "them." Why? Because the white horse and rider are to represent righteousness, not evil. There is not one hint of evil in his description. That is only man's reasonings.

 

Chapter 12, verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis. In chapters 11 and 12, John is at the midpoint of the week in his narrative, but as you said, these verses are about the birth of Christ.

 

When I was trying to answer God's three questions to me about chapters 4 & 5, and I was unable, suddenly God spoke and told me to go to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, God spoke again and said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." I counted and if I remember, 32 times. I could easily see, this chapter was about the dragon. Then God continued: " I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."  I now know, He sent me to chapter 12 to understand "history lesson." All of Revelation [even from chapter 4:1] is NOT future tense!

 

So we agree; verses 1-5 in chapter 12 are about the birth of Christ, and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child.

 

If you notice, in chapter 12, John is introduced to the Dragon, and in Chapter 13 he is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet. Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.  I liken this to the curtain closing at a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next "act" in the play.  This idea fits perfectly in John's break between the 6th and 7th seals. Two events MUST take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church MUST be seen in heaven, before God's wrath is poured out on earth. It does not fit quite so well between the 6th and 7th trumpet, but it still fits. John cannot sound the 7th trumpet until the setting is rearranged to fit the next "act:" the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week. First, the man of sin will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare he is God. So John must first get the man of sin to Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. (11:1-2). Next, the two witnesses MUST be there to witness this abomination. Once John has accomplished these two events, THEN the 7th trumpet can be sounded. (So it is quite like the break between the 6th and 7th seals so far.) I call this the "midpoint intermission."

 

However, after the 7th trumpet has sounded, the vials do not come immediately as the trumpets did after the 7th seal. John continues in his intermission information with the woman fleeing, the great war in the heavenlies, and the introduction to the Beast and False prophet. Then in chapter 14, the 144,000 now seen in heaven, then the message of the three angels that MUST come before the Beast and False prophet set up their image and mark.

 

Always remember, the seals are SEALING the book or scroll from being opened. That is their purpose. NO ONE can open the scroll to read about the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. Can you see now the great importance of someone being found worthy to break the seals? this is the KEY to the reign of Satan as the god of this world ENDING and the kingdoms being transferred to Jesus Christ. You see, if NO ONE was ever found worthy to break these seals and open the book, Satan would remain the god of this word indefinitely. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! In other words, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, exactly as John has written it.

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history? Go back and read it again. Here are the three questions God asked me to answer, and I could not for a while:

 

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be? Stephen SAW me there.

 

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy, that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you find that I was later found worthy.

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

 

It took me FAR TOO LONG to answer these questions. The truth is, this is a vision of the PAST, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth, or under the earth. then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, about 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

[Last Daze]

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

No! Not famines on the church! The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear. Did you not read about the pale horse closely? Here is a good example of hearing from the Holy Spirit. I take no credit what-so-ever. I got stuck on the word: "them."

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It was not me, it was the Holy Spirit. I could not let go of it, so I began to bug God: WHO is "them?" He kept answering the same way, several times: "it is right there in the verse: just keep reading it."

 

As I said before, I am SLOW to learn. It took me too long to get it, but thank God I finally did.

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword? Of course the red horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the hunger: so WHO was bringing famine? Of course the black horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

If you notice, the white horse and rider is NOT INCLUDED in "them." Why? Because the white horse and rider are to represent righteousness, not evil. There is not one hint of evil in his description. That is only man's reasonings.

 

Chapter 12, verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis. In chapters 11 and 12, John is at the midpoint of the week in his narrative, but as you said, these verses are about the birth of Christ.

 

When I was trying to answer God's three questions to me about chapters 4 & 5, and I was unable, suddenly God spoke and told me to go to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, God spoke again and said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." I counted and if I remember, 32 times. I could easily see, this chapter was about the dragon. Then God continued: " I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."  I now know, He sent me to chapter 12 to understand "history lesson." All of Revelation [even from chapter 4:1] is NOT future tense!

 

So we agree; verses 1-5 in chapter 12 are about the birth of Christ, and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child.

 

If you notice, in chapter 12, John is introduced to the Dragon, and in Chapter 13 he is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet. Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.  I liken this to the curtain closing at a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next "act" in the play.  This idea fits perfectly in John's break between the 6th and 7th seals. Two events MUST take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church MUST be seen in heaven, before God's wrath is poured out on earth. It does not fit quite so well between the 6th and 7th trumpet, but it still fits. John cannot sound the 7th trumpet until the setting is rearranged to fit the next "act:" the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week. First, the man of sin will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare he is God. So John must first get the man of sin to Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. (11:1-2). Next, the two witnesses MUST be there to witness this abomination. Once John has accomplished these two events, THEN the 7th trumpet can be sounded. (So it is quite like the break between the 6th and 7th seals so far.) I call this the "midpoint intermission."

 

However, after the 7th trumpet has sounded, the vials do not come immediately as the trumpets did after the 7th seal. John continues in his intermission information with the woman fleeing, the great war in the heavenlies, and the introduction to the Beast and False prophet. Then in chapter 14, the 144,000 now seen in heaven, then the message of the three angels that MUST come before the Beast and False prophet set up their image and mark.

 

Always remember, the seals are SEALING the book or scroll from being opened. That is their purpose. NO ONE can open the scroll to read about the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. Can you see now the great importance of someone being found worthy to break the seals? this is the KEY to the reign of Satan as the god of this world ENDING and the kingdoms being transferred to Jesus Christ. You see, if NO ONE was ever found worthy to break these seals and open the book, Satan would remain the god of this word indefinitely. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! In other words, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, exactly as John has written it.

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history? Go back and read it again. Here are the three questions God asked me to answer, and I could not for a while:

 

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be? Stephen SAW me there.

 

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy, that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you find that I was later found worthy.

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

 

It took me FAR TOO LONG to answer these questions. The truth is, this is a vision of the PAST, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth, or under the earth. then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, about 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear.

 

Famines are not something new to the church age.  The third seal famine is a result of the second seal war.  Famine is not a 2000 year plan of Satan to kill off the gospel.

 

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

 

The "them" is a clear contextual reference to Death and Hades.  The more important part of that verse is the "fourth part of the earth".  That's what they were given power over.  It's the limit that God imposed for the cumulative effects of the second and third seal.

 

 

Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.

 

Chapters 6-11 provide an overview.  Chapters 12 and following largely expound on 6-11.  The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.  They happen in the same day, maybe in the same hour.  Read them and compare.

 

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history?

 

Context, that's why.  Remember the "after these things" part?

[iamlamad]

 

 

 

I see a huge problem.  The first seal is in chapter 6, while the Beast He is suppose to represent is chapter 13. Do you imagine God was just trying to confuse us with such timing issues?

 

Oh, there's no problem...much less a huge one.  The seven seals are a framework.  At certain points, details are added and expounded upon.  Take chapter 12 for instance, verse 5.  That's a reference to the birth of Christ.  See how that narrative continues to flow right into the part about the beast from the sea?  Chapter breaks are not part of the original text.  Clearly, it's meant to provide additional detail.  At a cursory glance I'd say that chapter 12 on mostly modifies chapters 6-11.

 

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

 

In fact, John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - each other time to represent righteousness. It is likely he would use white here to represent evil?

 

Yes, and he did.  All the deception of wickedness is a characteristic of the false prophet who is empowered by the beast.  "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

 

 

The truth is, the first seal is to represent the church - sent out to make disciples of all nations. The white horse and rider ride alone, while the other three ride together. The Red, the Black and the Pale are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the church.

 

I can't even make sense of this according to the descriptions of those seals in Revelation.  The other three ride together?  Famine on the church?

 

No! Not famines on the church! The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear. Did you not read about the pale horse closely? Here is a good example of hearing from the Holy Spirit. I take no credit what-so-ever. I got stuck on the word: "them."

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

It was not me, it was the Holy Spirit. I could not let go of it, so I began to bug God: WHO is "them?" He kept answering the same way, several times: "it is right there in the verse: just keep reading it."

 

As I said before, I am SLOW to learn. It took me too long to get it, but thank God I finally did.

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword? Of course the red horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the hunger: so WHO was bringing famine? Of course the black horse and rider.

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

If you notice, the white horse and rider is NOT INCLUDED in "them." Why? Because the white horse and rider are to represent righteousness, not evil. There is not one hint of evil in his description. That is only man's reasonings.

 

Chapter 12, verses 1-5 are written as a parenthesis. In chapters 11 and 12, John is at the midpoint of the week in his narrative, but as you said, these verses are about the birth of Christ.

 

When I was trying to answer God's three questions to me about chapters 4 & 5, and I was unable, suddenly God spoke and told me to go to chapter 12. When I got my bible opened to chapter 12, God spoke again and said, "this chapter was me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns." I counted and if I remember, 32 times. I could easily see, this chapter was about the dragon. Then God continued: " I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."  I now know, He sent me to chapter 12 to understand "history lesson." All of Revelation [even from chapter 4:1] is NOT future tense!

 

So we agree; verses 1-5 in chapter 12 are about the birth of Christ, and how Satan tried to kill Jesus as a young child.

 

If you notice, in chapter 12, John is introduced to the Dragon, and in Chapter 13 he is introduced to the Beast and False Prophet. Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.  I liken this to the curtain closing at a play. The setting must be rearranged to fit the next "act" in the play.  This idea fits perfectly in John's break between the 6th and 7th seals. Two events MUST take place before the 7th seal opens the 70th week: the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection, and the church MUST be seen in heaven, before God's wrath is poured out on earth. It does not fit quite so well between the 6th and 7th trumpet, but it still fits. John cannot sound the 7th trumpet until the setting is rearranged to fit the next "act:" the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint of the week. First, the man of sin will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare he is God. So John must first get the man of sin to Jerusalem so he will be there to enter the temple. (11:1-2). Next, the two witnesses MUST be there to witness this abomination. Once John has accomplished these two events, THEN the 7th trumpet can be sounded. (So it is quite like the break between the 6th and 7th seals so far.) I call this the "midpoint intermission."

 

However, after the 7th trumpet has sounded, the vials do not come immediately as the trumpets did after the 7th seal. John continues in his intermission information with the woman fleeing, the great war in the heavenlies, and the introduction to the Beast and False prophet. Then in chapter 14, the 144,000 now seen in heaven, then the message of the three angels that MUST come before the Beast and False prophet set up their image and mark.

 

Always remember, the seals are SEALING the book or scroll from being opened. That is their purpose. NO ONE can open the scroll to read about the trumpet judgments until all the seals are opened. Can you see now the great importance of someone being found worthy to break the seals? this is the KEY to the reign of Satan as the god of this world ENDING and the kingdoms being transferred to Jesus Christ. You see, if NO ONE was ever found worthy to break these seals and open the book, Satan would remain the god of this word indefinitely. THANK GOD Jesus was found worthy! In other words, NO TRUMPET can be sounded until all 7 seals are opened, exactly as John has written it.

 

There is yet another problem: the first seal was opened around 32 AD, the very time Jesus ascended back into heaven.

 

Pure conjecture.  How can that have happened before Revelation was even written?

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history? Go back and read it again. Here are the three questions God asked me to answer, and I could not for a while:

 

1. Why was I not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father, when there are many verses saying that is where I went to be? Stephen SAW me there.

 

2. Why was "no man found" in the first search for one worthy, that ended in failure? If you read ahead, you find that I was later found worthy.

 

3. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?

 

It took me FAR TOO LONG to answer these questions. The truth is, this is a vision of the PAST, looking into the throne room while Jesus was still on the earth, or under the earth. then, John got to see the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, about 32 AD.

 

LAMAD

 

 

The devil creates famines to stop the advance of the gospel and of course to kill people before they can hear.

 

Famines are not something new to the church age.  The third seal famine is a result of the second seal war.  Famine is not a 2000 year plan of Satan to kill off the gospel.

 

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

 

 

The "them" is a clear contextual reference to Death and Hades.  The more important part of that verse is the "fourth part of the earth".  That's what they were given power over.  It's the limit that God imposed for the cumulative effects of the second and third seal.

 

 

Most of chapters 11, 12, 13, and 14 are written in what I call an "intermission" between the 6th and 7th trumpet, and then between the 7th trumpet and the vials.

 

Chapters 6-11 provide an overview.  Chapters 12 and following largely expound on 6-11.  The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.  They happen in the same day, maybe in the same hour.  Read them and compare.

 

 

HISTORY. You have already admitted that 12:1-5 was history. Why is it hard to believe another passage is history?

 

Context, that's why.  Remember the "after these things" part?

 

My friend, you are reading right over that verse and MISSING the point John made. Please follow"

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the sword: so WHO was given a sword?

 

⁴ And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

 

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with hunger: so WHO was bringing famine?

 

⁵ And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

⁶ And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny;

 

Got it? It is the BLACK horse and rider that bring hunger. It is famine. I have heard of famines in Africa off and on all my life. OF COURSE Africa is in the 1/4th they are allowed to work in.

 

 

Power was given over "them" to kill with the death: so WHO was called "death?" Of course the pale horse and rider.

 

⁸ And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death

 

So when John said power was given unto THEM, he referred right back to the Red horse, the Black horse and the pale horse. They have been riding since the church started. WHERE did world war one begin? Europe. Where did world war 2 begin? Europe. Europe is in the 1/4 of the earth that has Israel as its center.

 

  Chapters 12 and following largely expound on 6-11

 

PROVE IT.

 

The seventh trumpet / bowl is the END.

 

PROVE IT. Since you think you can rearrange John's God given chronology, then it will be up to you to prove the necessity of moving things around. As I read it, there is chapters 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, AFTER the 7th trumpet and before Jesus comes. this is the way John wrote it. Why do you feel such a great need to rearrange? What is wrong with the sequence John gave us? Is it because you just can't bare to think of the 7th seal as the MIDPOINT? Did you notice that those that flee into the wilderness at seeing the abomination, flee right after the 7th trumpet? That is proof positive for most that the 7th trumpet sounds at the midpoint.

 

In case you did not notice, some of the trumpet judgments come as partial judgments as one third: God showing those who oppose Him that He has POWER over the elements. But when he gets to the vials, It is 100% destruction. John wrote these things in sequence and numbered them for a REASON. It is clear that the vials must come AFTER the trumpets.

 

However, I know you will just keep on writing your false theories. One day when these things happen, you will see that they will happen in the exact order John wrote them.

 

LAMAD