A different angle...Rev 13

[Serving]

5 hours ago, Spock said:

I'm thinking the beast that comes out of the sea is an empire, not a person, because it has 7 heads.

The beast coming out of the earth may be the AC.

Perhaps the false prophet is not in this chapter.

Hi Spock, I see you brought up an older post of mine .. er .. hmm .. that was my old style and now I see how I used to come across .. pretty blunt wasn't I? .. glad I've worked on changing that coz it looked proud/outspoken which worked in hostile environments I used to post in on other forums, but a style which I never really liked using and am finally shedding, Praise the Lord.

Anyway, glad you are looking into it ..

Quote

The beast coming out of the earth may be the AC.

Perhaps the false prophet is not in this chapter.

Easily fixed bro, just swap A.C for the false prophet and there is your man.

I myself have never seen "the A.C" as a person, but a reflection of ones 'spiritual state' .. being either for Christ, or against Him .. that spirit of A.C.

But I suppose one can call him THE A.C if they so wish .. I'm just a stickler for detail and don't like using that title myself.

If you want more scriptures for evidences, just ask and I'd be glad to throw in a few more for you to chew on .. IF you need then that is.

Serving.

 

 

[Spock]

18 hours ago, Serving said:

Hi Spock, I see you brought up an older post of mine .. er .. hmm .. that was my old style and now I see how I used to come across .. pretty blunt wasn't I? .. glad I've worked on changing that coz it looked proud/outspoken which worked in hostile environments I used to post in on other forums, but a style which I never really liked using and am finally shedding, Praise the Lord.

Anyway, glad you are looking into it ..

Easily fixed bro, just swap A.C for the false prophet and there is your man.

I myself have never seen "the A.C" as a person, but a reflection of ones 'spiritual state' .. being either for Christ, or against Him .. that spirit of A.C.

But I suppose one can call him THE A.C if they so wish .. I'm just a stickler for detail and don't like using that title myself.

If you want more scriptures for evidences, just ask and I'd be glad to throw in a few more for you to chew on .. IF you need then that is.

Serving.

 

 

Bro,

my first reaction to what you said is, "cool!"   I don't think the bible ever named a dude ANTICHRIST so maybe you are right.

however, explain what this means from Rev 20: 9-10

the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does that not sound like three people being tossed?  Devil, beast, and false prophet. So, getting back to Rev 13, who are they? Is the "beast" in 13:1 and the False prophet in the second half of chapter 13? You tell me what you see?  Thanks.

spock

[Watching for Jesus]

25 minutes ago, Spock said:

Bro,

my first reaction to what you said is, "cool!"   I don't think the bible ever named a dude ANTICHRIST so maybe you are right.

however, explain what this means from Rev 20: 9-10

the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does that not sound like three people being tossed?  Devil, beast, and false prophet. So, getting back to Rev 13, who are they? Is the "beast" in 13:1 and the False prophet in the second half of chapter 13? You tell me what you see?  Thanks.

spock

Spock

I know you are talking to Serving, but I will give you my opinion of Rev. 13.

 

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

This is the fourth kingdom that Daniel saw.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

I believe it will be a world government.  It will be a composite of the lion, the bear and the leopard.

 

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

This is the "little horn" (aka the antichrist) that Daniel saw.

Daniel 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

 

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

These verses refer to the false prophet. I do not believe that Daniel was shown the false prophet.

 

[Spock]

Hey watching,

thanks for getting involved. Serving lives in Australia and he is sleeping when we are all awake so I'm glad you did. 

Your analysis looks great....very hard to rebut it.  It actually makes sense too. I like how you transitioned from Empire to person in v. 5.  That seems doable.  I was struggling with that, which is why I was wondering if someone was left out. 

Lets see what Serving says when he wakes up. If he agrees with you, we may have a wrap on this one, and maybe we could all revisit Daniel 8. 

[MorningGlory]

22 hours ago, Serving said:

Hi Spock, I see you brought up an older post of mine .. er .. hmm .. that was my old style and now I see how I used to come across .. pretty blunt wasn't I? .. glad I've worked on changing that coz it looked proud/outspoken which worked in hostile environments I used to post in on other forums, but a style which I never really liked using and am finally shedding, Praise the Lord.

Anyway, glad you are looking into it ..

Easily fixed bro, just swap A.C for the false prophet and there is your man.

I myself have never seen "the A.C" as a person, but a reflection of ones 'spiritual state' .. being either for Christ, or against Him .. that spirit of A.C.

But I suppose one can call him THE A.C if they so wish .. I'm just a stickler for detail and don't like using that title myself.

If you want more scriptures for evidences, just ask and I'd be glad to throw in a few more for you to chew on .. IF you need then that is.

Serving.

 

 

How do you not see the AC as a real person when Thessalonians 2 clearly says he is a person?

 

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

¹⁰ And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

¹¹ And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

¹² That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

¹³ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

¹⁵ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

¹⁶ Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

¹⁷ Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

[Serving]

4 hours ago, MorningGlory said:

How do you not see the AC as a real person when Thessalonians 2 clearly says he is a person?

 

2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

² That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

³ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

⁴ Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

⁵ Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

⁶ And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

⁷ For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

⁸ And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

⁹ Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

¹⁰ And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

¹¹ And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

¹² That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

¹³ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

¹⁴ Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

¹⁵ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

¹⁶ Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

¹⁷ Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Hi MG,

I don't deny that the above is a person, in fact we agree 100% .. I only say the TITLE A/C itself is not accurate & that the above person is in fact called the false prophet ..

Some might say, "oh don't be so picky", but the problem is this, for a long time the majority of people were only familiar with that TITLE A/C .. I even used to use it until I realised the problem in doing that .. and the problem was this .. people started to say hey look, there's ANOTHER guy and he's called the false prophet .. so instead of one "man of sin", they then created two "men of sin", and then came all the doctrines to "make it work" .. but it doesn't ..

 

2 Thess  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The sword represents Christ's spoken word, as He can create with His word, He also can destroy with it .. and it is at His coming in Thess 2 when He destroys 'that wicked man' with the spirit of his mouth .. and it so happens that rev 19 Has the Lord destroying a wicked man that rev 19 identifies (not me) as the false prophet (not the A/C) with His mouth too ..

2 Thess Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2 Thess  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Rev 19:20 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

That 2 Thess man does signs & lying wonders which are miracles who the rev 19 man does and Mr Thess 2 deceives the unrighteous which unrighteous in rev 19 are deceived by the false prophet  .. notice the rev 19 man works in tandem with "the beast" .. well rev 13 has two beasts working together too (as I mentioned above) .. one beast has the body of a lion/bear/leopard (union/empire) ruled by 10 kings .. and one is a person .. and it is rev 19 that reveals that person as the false prophet and NOT the A/C ..

AND since it is ONLY the false prophet who wages war with the saints and overcomes them (defeats them by killing them) then he must be that LITTLE HORN too .. because the little horn wages war with the saints and overcomes them who so happens to work with 10 kings too .. it is all the same beasts .. TWO .. the "empire & her false prophet" .. only two beasts and not three.

That is just a very brief overview .. more precise detail to link the false prophet with 2 Thess comes from Daniel who reveals the "little horn" wages war against the saints and overcomes them .. well the only other personality in the bible who wages war against the saints and overcomes them is the false prophet .. again .. GOD never mentions the A/C as a person .. anywhere .. only men have done that ..

If you want me to dredge up all the scriptures for solid evidence, I am only too glad to ..

Serving.

[Serving]

3 hours ago, Spock said:

Hey watching,

thanks for getting involved. Serving lives in Australia and he is sleeping when we are all awake so I'm glad you did.

Your analysis looks great....very hard to rebut it.  It actually makes sense too. I like how you transitioned from Empire to person in v. 5.  That seems doable.  I was struggling with that, which is why I was wondering if someone was left out.

Lets see what Serving says when he wakes up. If he agrees with you, we may have a wrap on this one, and maybe we could all revisit Daniel 8.

Hi Spock,

Watching did a good job .. but .. in my opinion, IF I understood him correctly, there is just ONE correction to be made .. where he assigned the A/C in his mix, just replace "A/C" with the false prophet .. because there are only two beasts at work in revelation AND also in Daniel & not three beasts ..

The rev19  empire/union, whose lion/bear/leopard body (10 kings empire) is working with ONE other man/individual that joins them (same as Daniel only has TWO beasts, the 10 horn beast AND that little horn, being the 10 kings 'poster boy' .. the false prophet himself .. which man does all the same things the LITTLE HORN DOES .. that is .. HE wages war against the saints & overcomes them (by the image of the beast he makes the world worship whereby sealing their fates with the mark of the beast) .. so the little horn IS the false prophet .. NOT this "A/C" but the false prophet is the title GOD assigned him .. the little horn IS the false prophet without a hint of doubt.

Again .. ONLY the little horn gets identified as the one overcoming the saints in Daniel who is 'doing his thing' before = in the presence of the 10 horned beast .. which same horn is found in rev 13's beast (coming up from the Earth) who ALSO so happens to be 'doing his thing' before = in the presence of .. and tellingly so .. a 10 kingdom beast too .. and it is written in Rev 19:20 that HE is called BY GOD as the false prophet ..  and HE is the one that overcomes the saints just as that little horn does .. they are the SAME MAN.

So rev 19 reveals the identity of the little horn for us .. the false prophet who does the SAME things Daniels little horn does .. and since God reveals in rev 19 that only ONE man overcomes the saints along with his beast pal, the 10 king union .. then and again .. they are one and the same .. the false prophet himself .. nowhere does God call him the A/C .. men have called him that.

Now look at this :

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Looks like the beast is something else at first glance right?

But one needs to be personally familiar with OT prophecies mainly from Isaiah, Jeremiah (the meanings in Jeremiah are a lot more hidden & complicated), Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah, Zechariah & NT scriptures of Matthew, 2 Thess & Revelation to fully grasp what happens in OUR last days with the wars and the emerging global system (beast empire whose SYSTEM goes global) Jacobs trouble (attack and occupation of Israel) & WWIII (which is NOT Armageddon) and Armageddon itself to grasp the book of Daniel & Revelation in a more confident manner.

When personally aware of these prophecies a definite picture emerges .. and I will post that 'picture' when YOU are ready .. just let me know brother.

 

Serving.

[Serving]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

Bro,

my first reaction to what you said is, "cool!"   I don't think the bible ever named a dude ANTICHRIST so maybe you are right.

however, explain what this means from Rev 20: 9-10

the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Does that not sound like three people being tossed?  Devil, beast, and false prophet. So, getting back to Rev 13, who are they? Is the "beast" in 13:1 and the False prophet in the second half of chapter 13? You tell me what you see?  Thanks.

spock

Hi Spock,

I forgot to address this within my reply to you ..

Rev 20 says AFTER the 1000 years (millennium) Satan will be released for a little while to gather the last resistance (reading between the lines without adding to it) of those who still rejected Christ's teachings during the millennium into an army called Gog & Magog .. BUT ..

1000 years BEFORE Satan got released from his prison was the 2nd coming of Christ .. and it was at the 2nd coming that the beast and the false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire ..  so BEFORE the millennium TWO are thrown in the lake ..

THEN .. 1000 years AFTER the beast and the false prophet were thrown in the lake of fire, AFTER the millennium, Satan (and his angels) cop the same fate ..

So there was a 1000 year gap before Satan joined them in the lake of fire.

So all I did to understand that, was to take God at His word .. that Gog & Magog is AFTER the millennium and NOT before it like what has NOW in these modern times, have now unfortunately become the majorities interpretation .. BUT .. God said AFTER the 1000 years .. yet so called "men with authority" said, "No God, you made a mistake, it is BEFORE the millennium" .. see how crazy the situation has become?

 

Serving

 

[WilliamL]

6 hours ago, Serving said:

So all I did to understand that, was to take God at His word .. that Gog & Magog is AFTER the millennium and NOT before it like what has NOW in these modern times, have now unfortunately become the majorities interpretation .. BUT .. God said AFTER the 1000 years .. yet so called "men with authority" said, "No God, you made a mistake, it is BEFORE the millennium" .. see how crazy the situation has become?

God did not say that war with Gog and Magog will ONLY be after the millennium. War with them will occur BOTH before AND after the millennium, because, as God has prophesied previously, "YHWH will have war with Amalek [Agag/Gog] from generation to generation." Ex. 17:116

[Serving]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

God did not say that war with Gog and Magog will ONLY be after the millennium. War with them will occur BOTH before AND after the millennium, because, as God has prophesied previously, "YHWH will have war with Amalek [Agag/Gog] from generation to generation." Ex. 17:116

William, nobody knows where the Amalekites are today, so to say that they are Gog & Magog is pure speculation .. they are of Esau, yes, but who and where they are now nobody is certain, either wa y it plays no part in Gog & Magog because Gog & Magog are ONLY after the millennium.

How can I be certain? Easy .. but first let me make a brief point and then let me ask some logical questions and please think about them ..

Brief point : We first find mention of Gog & Magog in Ezekiel .. but .. Ezekiel does not mention WHEN that war happens but only mentions that it will be in the "latter years" .. but .. there IS something Ezekiel does provide us with, and that is the CONDITIONS within Israel at the TIME of the attack .. insights which do NOT reflect Modern Israel at all, but instead reflect a more PRIMITIVE lifestyle and one of an Israel of ONGOING PEACE and SAFETY .. other words, an Israel reflected DURING the MILLENNIUM when Christ and His Saints are ruling over the human National Israelites in their restored kingdom.  

And that peace only comes with Christ's return .. which by default means that Ezekiel's account points glaringly at Gog & Magog being AFTER the millennium .. the CONDITIONS Ezekiel describes within Israel (the kingdom) are without doubt MILLENNIAL conditions of peace and safety which ONLY comes to pass through Christ's rule ..

Just a few things Ezekiel says concerning Israel during Gog & Magog's attack :

Israel is :

1) Restored from the sword

2) Whose inhabitants are ALL living securely

3) And are living WITHOUT Walls

4) Having NO bars or gates

Question : Is it truly logical to imagine todays Israel dismantling their armed forces = knocking down their walls and gates (walls & gates are associated with ARMED DEFENCES of a nation) and abandoning ALL MODERN TECHNOLOGY to just kick back and ALL OF THEM raise sheep or raise crops each man sitting under his vine? And all this BEFORE Christ returns??

Or an Israel where EVERY man builds their OWN homes and collects FIRE WOOD from the FORESTS for COOKING and LIGHTING??

Q : Do they BAN LIGHT BULBS and ELECTRICITY in Israel before Christs return too now? LOL .. no offence brother, I can be a bit of a joker now & then is all .. so I'll stop there and not push too hard coz you should see the obvious problems now that would easily arrive IF one says that Gog & Magog ALSO happens before the return .. it only happens ONCE brother, to say it happens TWICE is NOT SUPPORTED in the scriptures, so it is just an assumption.

William, Ezekiel is describing perfectly the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM of Israel's RESTORED KINGDOM ruled by Christ and His resurrected saints who RULE over National flesh Israel who get brought back from the sword .. ALL OF THEM BROUGHT BACK .. meaning .. EVEN the 10 LOST TRIBES .. and THAT only happens AFTER Christ Gathers His Saints in the clouds and THEN touches down on earth and RAISES His BANNER to CALL BACK the EXILES of Israel from EVERY LAND wherefore He drove them so long ago.

So those CONDITIONS Ezekiel describes are NOT PRE Millennial but are POST Millennial .. whose millennial PEACE God GUARANTEES during Christ's 1000 reign .. NOT modern Israel that is TODAY serving BABYLON the GREAT.

Now, unlike Ezekiel, John DOES mention WHEN Gog & Magog happens .. and John is crystal clear, it happens AFTER the millennium .. and John makes no mention of Gog & Magog attacking AGAIN, as we'd expect IF Gog & Magog had attacked before in the past, just like every other example in the OT when God says He will bring a nation AGAIN, or for the first time .. no .. there is not even a hint of it, which is NOT the consistent style that God uses all throughout the bible .. so why should Gog & Magog be an exception?

So to sum it all up ..

Ezekiel makes NO mention of WHEN the Gog & Magog attack occurs BUT does provide us with the CONDITIONS in Israel during the attack .. noting that Gog & Magog never even ENTER Israel nor HURT even ONE Israelite or even ONE Israelite CITY .. not even ONE Israelite SHEEP or GOAT gets turned to brown bread .. NOTHING.

BUT

John DOES tell us WHEN .. and John says it happens AFTER the millennium ..

So I go with John's straight forward declaration USING Ezekiel's CONDITIONS within Israel during the ATTEMPTED ATTACK as a strong supporting element for a future and POST millennial attack.

I leave it with you brother to contemplate.

Serving.