Guest Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 isn't that the attitude that the church (as a whole) is supposed to have.... Amen Beloved Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38 And But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:8-10 Amen Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Daughter Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfenty Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 (edited) Jimmy Swaggart Ministries has an amazing video on this topic. **Video removed** If you don't want to watch the video, here's a summary The bible says that we should keep a sober mind and when you are under the influence of something that alters us, that isn't being sober. If it takes a person 5 beers to get drunk and a person drinks one.. It is a scientific fact that that person is 1/5 drunk. He also explains why the wine in the bible is not referring to alcoholic wine, but instead grape juice. His reasoning is something along the lines of.. to make alcohol there has to be like bacteria breaking down and stuff, and jesus is holy and all-powerful so God would never want bacteria decay alcohol to represent the blood of Jesus. Idk it's better if you just watch the video. It's so informative. Edited October 23, 2014 by ncn Please do not post videos outside of the video forum , all videos need to be approved first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 pfenty, i have a lot of respect for jimmy, but he's wrong on this count. in the water to wine miracle, the people at the wedding were already drinking alcoholic wine, as was the custom. after he turned water to wine, the host was praised for having saved the BEST wine for last. that wouldn't be grape juice. further more, jimmy totally ignores biblical context, which includes all accounts of alcohol in scripture... including the one i mentioned previously where God specifically told His people that they could purchase "strong drink" (hard liquor) for the tithe feast if that's what they wanted as long as they did so with thanksgiving to God, praising Him for His provision. and while the one-fifth drunk phrase sounds catchy, it's not true. a person is either drunk (impaired) or not drunk. people can drink a beer or a glass of wine and not become mentally or physically impaired in any way. i don't know why it is that the faction that believes that the wine was really grape juice can think that every negative reference to alcohol in scripture MUST be about fermented drink, but at the same time insist that every positive reference to alcohol must CERTAINLY be about grape juice. it's just wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 599 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,263 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,991 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Online Share Posted October 23, 2014 pfenty, i have a lot of respect for jimmy, but he's wrong on this count. in the water to wine miracle, the people at the wedding were already drinking alcoholic wine, as was the custom. after he turned water to wine, the host was praised for having saved the BEST wine for last. that wouldn't be grape juice. further more, jimmy totally ignores biblical context, which includes all accounts of alcohol in scripture... including the one i mentioned previously where God specifically told His people that they could purchase "strong drink" (hard liquor) for the tithe feast if that's what they wanted as long as they did so with thanksgiving to God, praising Him for His provision. and while the one-fifth drunk phrase sounds catchy, it's not true. a person is either drunk (impaired) or not drunk. people can drink a beer or a glass of wine and not become mentally or physically impaired in any way. i don't know why it is that the faction that believes that the wine was really grape juice can think that every negative reference to alcohol in scripture MUST be about fermented drink, but at the same time insist that every positive reference to alcohol must CERTAINLY be about grape juice. it's just wishful thinking. It is usually from people who themselves or a close family member has has serious problems with alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 Previously I posted that the method which was developed to prevent grape juice from turning into wine was developed in the late 1800's by Welch. In Jesus time, there was no natural way to prevent grape juice from turning into wine. So to drink grape juice, it had to be during the grape harvest season. Grapes are harvested in Israel, between late June and early September. In scripture, Jesus drank wine during Passover. Passover occurs in March or April. That is at least 6 months after the final grape harvest. Since grape juice can turn into wine in as little as a week, and there was no method to prevent grape juice from turning into wine, at Passover time, the wine had to be alcoholic. Now, if Jesus and the disciples drank grape juice and not wine at Passover, this would have had to be a miracle as the natural process of fermentation either was prevented, starting 6 months previously, or the alcohol had to have been removed, reverting the wine back to grape juice. Had Jesus done these miracles at the last supper, scripture is silent. This would have been a very noticable miracle for the disciples. But, there is no proof of such a miracle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persuaded Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 249 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 107 Days Won: 2 Joined: 06/29/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 I'm probably guilty of being a little flippant here, and that's probably not an appropriate way to discuss communion. I know that the reason churches generally switch to grape juice is to avoid stumbling a pew-sitter. [Rom 14:2,2 KJV] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. It's interesting to note in this discussion of diet, the one who is weak in the faith is the one with the more restrictive outlook. [Rom 14:15-17 KJV] But if thy brother be grieved with [thy] meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of: For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. If a brother is grieved by my diet, I assume that can also apply to my choice about alcohol. I've been thinking about this lately, as I raise a child. I don't want her to have a puritanical "all alcohol is evil" outlook, and thus a forbidden fruit attraction later, but I also don't want her to destroy our family's witness as she discusses these issues with school mates that come from sometimes very non-alcoholic backgrounds. we can't live our life worrying about offending total strangers, and that's not what God intended when He said not to be a stumbling block for your brother. as for your daughter, why not raise her to respond to questions with the answer that your family believes that matters of alcohol are between the individual and God? What about the alcoholic church going Christian? not sure what you mean with your question, but i'll try to respond in a way that covers all the basis in my most humble opinion. first of all, i was answering to the situation that was brought up... a child who attends school who might get into a discussion with other christian kids about the biblical legality of drinking alcohol. i wasn't under the impression that the scenario presented was about alcoholism or even occasional binge drinking. as i understood the scenario, persuaded was referring to situations where their child, coming from a background where the parents might have an occasional beer or glass of wine, might possibly offend a child whose parents taught them that alcohol was evil, period, with no exceptions. in that situation, the child really needs to understand that you can't please everybody, and that they should stand firm on biblical truth... that truth being that alcohol in moderation is between God and an individual. secondly, what about the church going christian who happens to be an alcoholic... is that an adequate rephrasing of your question? if it is, then my response is also a question. what about it? should the church close its doors to an alcoholic? or to an alcoholic who has accepted Christ but still struggles on a daily basis with drinking? there are a lot of christians out there that still have very real struggles with substance abuse. see, this is why i have had such a hard time finding a church to settle into here in texas. everybody wants their pews filled with cookie cutter christians, and those with issues are made to feel unwelcome. i'm so grateful that when we lived in vegas, i belonged to a church that opened it's doors, arms and hearts wide to those with addictions. it was that loving, welcoming attitude that helped my husband go from being a chronic meth abuser to someone who has now been clean for more than three years, and has even been able to put down cigarettes... even though moving back to texas and leaving that church was critical for his getting clean, he couldn't have done it if he hadn't spent years being accepted by the very people he knew without a doubt were praying for him. and my husband isn't the only person i saw change as a result of that church's attitude... if a label can be given to a church, grapevine proudly wore the banner of "recovery church". in the five years i was a member, i knew a whole lot of people who were able to overcome drugs, gambling, drinking, prostitution, you name it. they were welcomed inside the doors even on the occasions when they came in obviously high or drunk, and nobody criticized them for it. prayed with them over it, but never criticized. isn't that the attitude that the church (as a whole) is supposed to have? Funny, for lack of punctuation I completed mis understood Fez's comment until now. He means: "What about the alcoholic, church-going Christian?" ...not that there's an alcoholic church that is "going Christian". Whew, glad I got that straight! To the weightier matters... I do think that the point Paul is making in Romans 14 is that yes we should consider the effect of offending total strangers. While Paul vehemently educated Christians to reject religiosity and legalism, he still had Timothy circumcised to avoid offending a Jewish audience. He emphatically declares that meat is fine to eat, but that if it offends it is not charitable to eat it. It isn't just between me and God, if it offends others, especially those that are weaker in faith. I might also argue that there are no "total strangers". In my circumstance, living in a smallish town, that becomes more real. Whatever else we may be called to do for Him, we are all, all of us, called to be a witness. ----- As a young guy with my dad, we came out of a life of drugs and eastern religion and general hippy lifestyle. The church that took us in had a similar ethos- welcome everyone through the doors, even the barefoot hippies reeking of dope, and let God's message change them from the inside out. For new believers, they worked hard to provide a place away from our old environment in which to get grounded in the Word and established in church fellowship. I have a lot of sympathy for the plight of those that are lost in this way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.70 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 What about the alcoholic church going Christian? not sure what you mean with your question, but i'll try to respond in a way that covers all the basis in my most humble opinion. first of all, i was answering to the situation that was brought up... a child who attends school who might get into a discussion with other christian kids about the biblical legality of drinking alcohol. i wasn't under the impression that the scenario presented was about alcoholism or even occasional binge drinking. as i understood the scenario, persuaded was referring to situations where their child, coming from a background where the parents might have an occasional beer or glass of wine, might possibly offend a child whose parents taught them that alcohol was evil, period, with no exceptions. in that situation, the child really needs to understand that you can't please everybody, and that they should stand firm on biblical truth... that truth being that alcohol in moderation is between God and an individual. secondly, what about the church going christian who happens to be an alcoholic... is that an adequate rephrasing of your question? if it is, then my response is also a question. what about it? should the church close its doors to an alcoholic? or to an alcoholic who has accepted Christ but still struggles on a daily basis with drinking? there are a lot of christians out there that still have very real struggles with substance abuse. see, this is why i have had such a hard time finding a church to settle into here in texas. everybody wants their pews filled with cookie cutter christians, and those with issues are made to feel unwelcome. i'm so grateful that when we lived in vegas, i belonged to a church that opened it's doors, arms and hearts wide to those with addictions. it was that loving, welcoming attitude that helped my husband go from being a chronic meth abuser to someone who has now been clean for more than three years, and has even been able to put down cigarettes... even though moving back to texas and leaving that church was critical for his getting clean, he couldn't have done it if he hadn't spent years being accepted by the very people he knew without a doubt were praying for him. and my husband isn't the only person i saw change as a result of that church's attitude... if a label can be given to a church, grapevine proudly wore the banner of "recovery church". in the five years i was a member, i knew a whole lot of people who were able to overcome drugs, gambling, drinking, prostitution, you name it. they were welcomed inside the doors even on the occasions when they came in obviously high or drunk, and nobody criticized them for it. prayed with them over it, but never criticized. isn't that the attitude that the church (as a whole) is supposed to have? Funny, for lack of punctuation I completed mis understood Fez's comment until now. He means: "What about the alcoholic, church-going Christian?" ...not that there's an alcoholic church that is "going Christian". Whew, glad I got that straight! To the weightier matters... I do think that the point Paul is making in Romans 14 is that yes we should consider the effect of offending total strangers. While Paul vehemently educated Christians to reject religiosity and legalism, he still had Timothy circumcised to avoid offending a Jewish audience. He emphatically declares that meat is fine to eat, but that if it offends it is not charitable to eat it. It isn't just between me and God, if it offends others, especially those that are weaker in faith. I might also argue that there are no "total strangers". In my circumstance, living in a smallish town, that becomes more real. Whatever else we may be called to do for Him, we are all, all of us, called to be a witness. ----- As a young guy with my dad, we came out of a life of drugs and eastern religion and general hippy lifestyle. The church that took us in had a similar ethos- welcome everyone through the doors, even the barefoot hippies reeking of dope, and let God's message change them from the inside out. For new believers, they worked hard to provide a place away from our old environment in which to get grounded in the Word and established in church fellowship. I have a lot of sympathy for the plight of those that are lost in this way! I do appreciate your view, and agree. I would not serve wine in a gathering of Christians where some are sensitive to wine, for whatever reason. Just offering a differing view. A number of years ago, I was attending a church which originated out of the holiness movement of the 1830's to early 1900's. A strict rule of the church was that to be members, one must not drink any form of alcohol. This was an absolutely wonderful church, great pastor, great people. I did whatever I could to assist in anyway I was allowed as a non-member. My family is Jewish. Not saved. Wine in an integral part of many ceremonies. To refuse to drink wine would be seen as an insult and never understood. So, to continue as a family member, in relationship with my family, taking part in the ceremonies is important, as a part of being a witness. I could have refrained when in church or with people from the church, but membership required total abstinence. I couldn't abandon my family and any hopes of sharing the gospel with them. No one in my family is an alcoholic and the ceremonial wine is considered very important. (alcoholism is almost zero among the Jewish people. So much so, that scientists have researched the Jewish people to try to understand why they so few incidences of alcoholism). 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pfenty Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 I disagree with you all, respectably. But, God bless you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfenty Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2014 I say that just because I don't think we should have to rely on any substance (don't get me wrong.. Obviously food, water, shelter.. I'm talking about cigarettes, tobacco, drugs, or alcohol etc.) just to relax. One drink of alcohol does impair/impact our body. Maybe just in the slightest way as just being "relaxed." Idk. And personally, I have never seen any positive effects of drinking alcohol. Only destroyed, broken lives. One drink is all it takes to become an alcoholic. I've watched it happen to so many people in my life. I just believe that God would never want us to partake in anything that could destroy us. We should find all the peace and rest when we worship our Lord and pray. Maybe, my views just aren't watered down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez Posted October 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 683 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,128 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 1,352 Days Won: 54 Joined: 02/03/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/07/1952 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I say that just because I don't think we should have to rely on any substance (don't get me wrong.. Obviously food, water, shelter.. I'm talking about cigarettes, tobacco, drugs, or alcohol etc.) just to relax. One drink of alcohol does impair/impact our body. Maybe just in the slightest way as just being "relaxed." Idk. And personally, I have never seen any positive effects of drinking alcohol. Only destroyed, broken lives. One drink is all it takes to become an alcoholic. I've watched it happen to so many people in my life. I just believe that God would never want us to partake in anything that could destroy us. We should find all the peace and rest when we worship our Lord and pray. Maybe, my views just aren't watered down. Tell me what you think of supersizing meals? Bottomless soda's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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