is it okay for the young Christians to drink alcohol?

[other one]

I say that just because I don't think we should have to rely on any substance (don't get me wrong.. Obviously food, water, shelter.. I'm talking about cigarettes, tobacco, drugs, or alcohol etc.) just to relax. One drink of alcohol does impair/impact our body. Maybe just in the slightest way as just being "relaxed." Idk. And personally, I have never seen any positive effects of drinking alcohol. Only destroyed, broken lives. One drink is all it takes to become an alcoholic. I've watched it happen to so many people in my life. I just believe that God would never want us to partake in anything that could destroy us. We should find all the peace and rest when we worship our Lord and pray. Maybe, my views just aren't watered down.

My wife has M.S. and has problems with leg cramps mainly at night......   if she drinks a six ounce of red wine she doesn't have leg cramps and she sleeps well and walks much better the next morning.   When we do run out of wine, she does have leg cramps and it's not good.

 

the drugs that are available to do the same thing have really not good side effects..... 

 

So you should no longer say that you have never seen any positive effects of drinking alcohol.....    and if you want to check with my wife herself, come by and we'll do dinner and talk it out.

[Guest LadyC]

ok going back to the not offending strangers... let me try to clarify.

 

whether it's eating meat or drinking alcohol, you can't live your life afraid to order a pork chop or a glass of wine with dinner because there might be an alcoholic sitting at a nearby table in the same restaurant. however, if we are going to dinner with an orthodox jew, or with an alcoholic, we absolutely should be sensitive to them and order something not offensive.

 

but the strangers who are also customers at the restaurant are responsible for their choices.... you are not.

[Guest]

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Colossians 2:16

 

~

 

ok going back to the not offending strangers... let me try to clarify.

 

whether it's eating meat or drinking alcohol, you can't live your life afraid to order a pork chop or a glass of wine with dinner because there might be an alcoholic sitting at a nearby table in the same restaurant.

 

however, if we are going to dinner with an orthodox jew, or with an alcoholic, we absolutely should be sensitive to them and order something not offensive.

 

but the strangers who are also customers at the restaurant are responsible for their choices....

 

you are not.

 

And whatsoever ye do,

 

do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

 

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance:

 

for ye serve the Lord Christ. Colossians 3:23-24

 

And

 

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

 

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Romans 14;21-23

 

And

 

Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

 

But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
 

For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matthew 15:17-20

 

Amen~!

 

But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine,

 

until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. Matthew 26:29

[OakWood]

I say that just because I don't think we should have to rely on any substance (don't get me wrong.. Obviously food, water, shelter.. I'm talking about cigarettes, tobacco, drugs, or alcohol etc.) just to relax. One drink of alcohol does impair/impact our body. Maybe just in the slightest way as just being "relaxed." Idk. And personally, I have never seen any positive effects of drinking alcohol. Only destroyed, broken lives. One drink is all it takes to become an alcoholic. I've watched it happen to so many people in my life. I just believe that God would never want us to partake in anything that could destroy us. We should find all the peace and rest when we worship our Lord and pray. Maybe, my views just aren't watered down.

 

Then if you believe this, you are ignoring scripture.

 

Previously I posted that the method which was developed to prevent grape juice from turning into wine was developed in the late 1800's by Welch. In Jesus time, there was no natural way to prevent grape juice from turning into wine. So to drink grape juice, it had to be during the grape harvest season. Grapes are harvested in Israel, between late June and early September.  

 

In scripture, Jesus drank wine during Passover. Passover occurs in March or April. That is at least 6 months after the final grape harvest. Since grape juice can turn into wine in as little as a week, and there was no method to prevent grape juice from turning into wine, at Passover time, the wine had to be alcoholic. 

 

Now, if Jesus and the disciples drank grape juice and not wine at Passover, this would have had to be a miracle as the natural process of fermentation either was prevented, starting 6 months previously, or the alcohol had to have been removed, reverting the wine back to grape juice. Had Jesus done these miracles at the last supper, scripture is silent. This would have been a very noticable miracle for the disciples. But, there is no proof of such a miracle.  

 

I agree. Grapes have yeast on the skin. As soon as a grape is crushed the yeast comes into contact with the juice, fermentation will start soon after. It would have been impossible to store grape juice for any length of time without the sugar turning into alcohol. The only way to prevent this without chemical means would be either to keep the juice ice cold (not possible before the invention of refrigeration especially in a warm climate) and even then fermentation would start again as soon as the juice warmed up again, or to boil the juice and kill the yeast. I don't know what boiled fruit juice would taste like, but I imagine it would not be very appetising.

[Guest Butero]

The problem with that teaching Pfenty, is that the Bible never states it was grape juice.  Jimmy Swaggart is only speculating, and I would also say, really reaching using that bacteria argument.  I also disagree that you are 1/5 drunk if you have one drink.  I know when a person is a drunkard, as opposed to someone who has an occasional glass of wine.  I also know that there had to be a logical reason why the host at the wedding would normally serve the best wine first, and the lesser wine later, and the only logical explanation is that when someone had been drinking, since it contained alcohol, their judgment would become somewhat clouded, and they wouldn't notice that the wine didn't taste so good.  Of course, I am speaking of someone who was over doing it on wine, not just someone who had one drink.  I have heard these arguments for years, having been part of holiness churches, and a supporter of Jimmy Swaggart back in the 80s, but I never believed them.  Of course, I do agree with him that you will never become a drunkard if you don't take that first drink, so there is wisdom in that.  I would never fault anyone that refused to partake of alcoholic beverages.  It is just not a sin, unless it is in excess. 

 

I do have to ask you one thing Pfenty.  You admit that a single glass of alcohol can relax you, yet you say you have never seen it have a positive effect.  Some people are keyed up all the time, and becoming somewhat more relaxed is good.  Do you think it is better to take Valium or some over the counter medicine for anxiety, or have a glass of wine?  This is something I have debated within myself over the years.  I never once took issue with a person using a mild drug for anxiety, even while in a holiness church, but everyone condemned drinking any alcohol.  I don't see any difference, and at least with alcohol, you don't need a prescription, and you don't get looked at like you have a mental disorder that you are being treated for.  That prescription goes on your medical record.  I just try to look at this logically.  Unless I have a problem with using medicine at all, including strong pain pills given by the dentist, or after surgery, I honestly can't see being bothered by someone relaxing from a single glass of wine or a beer.  I do however know that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so if a person feels they cannot control the amount they drink, by all means, don't touch alcohol ever. 

[OakWood]

The problem with that teaching Pfenty, is that the Bible never states it was grape juice.  Jimmy Swaggart is only speculating, and I would also say, really reaching using that bacteria argument.  I also disagree that you are 1/5 drunk if you have one drink.  I know when a person is a drunkard, as opposed to someone who has an occasional glass of wine.  I also know that there had to be a logical reason why the host at the wedding would normally serve the best wine first, and the lesser wine later, and the only logical explanation is that when someone had been drinking, since it contained alcohol, their judgment would become somewhat clouded, and they wouldn't notice that the wine didn't taste so good.  Of course, I am speaking of someone who was over doing it on wine, not just someone who had one drink.  I have heard these arguments for years, having been part of holiness churches, and a supporter of Jimmy Swaggart back in the 80s, but I never believed them.  Of course, I do agree with him that you will never become a drunkard if you don't take that first drink, so there is wisdom in that.  I would never fault anyone that refused to partake of alcoholic beverages.  It is just not a sin, unless it is in excess. 

 

I do have to ask you one thing Pfenty.  You admit that a single glass of alcohol can relax you, yet you say you have never seen it have a positive effect.  Some people are keyed up all the time, and becoming somewhat more relaxed is good.  Do you think it is better to take Valium or some over the counter medicine for anxiety, or have a glass of wine?  This is something I have debated within myself over the years.  I never once took issue with a person using a mild drug for anxiety, even while in a holiness church, but everyone condemned drinking any alcohol.  I don't see any difference, and at least with alcohol, you don't need a prescription, and you don't get looked at like you have a mental disorder that you are being treated for.  That prescription goes on your medical record.  I just try to look at this logically.  Unless I have a problem with using medicine at all, including strong pain pills given by the dentist, or after surgery, I honestly can't see being bothered by someone relaxing from a single glass of wine or a beer.  I do however know that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, so if a person feels they cannot control the amount they drink, by all means, don't touch alcohol ever. 

 

Swaggart is more than speculating, he's changing the definition of wine back and forth as it suits him.

 

And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

Acts 2:12-13

 

The above verse makes no sense unless the definition of wine means that it contains alcohol. If wine does indeed mean an alcoholic drink then why does its definition suddenly change to mean 'grape juice' when it suits Swaggart to change the definition? You can't mess around with scripture like that otherwise we'd be changing definitions back and forth all the time to suit us.

[Guest Butero]

Another question I would have Oakwood, is would it be sinful to eat leavened bread?  The yeast, if I am not mistaken, contains bacteria.  Yogurt also has bacteria in it, and it is considered healthy to eat.  I have a lot of respect for the work Jimmy Swaggart has done over the years, and would likely still be a monthly supporter had the scandals not occurred, along with changes in his doctrine, but I never agreed with everything he taught.  This is one of those areas where I couldn't accept what he was saying.  It doesn't make logical sense.  I think there is a hatred for alcohol among Pentecostals, and even conservative Baptists, and they consider it unclean.  They cannot believe Jesus partook of it because he would never do anything unclean or sinful, so they had to find ways to make wine into grape juice.  Jesus never did commit sin, and he clearly did drink wine, so it cannot be sinful in moderation. 

[OakWood]

Another question I would have Oakwood, is would it be sinful to eat leavened bread?  The yeast, if I am not mistaken, contains bacteria.  Yogurt also has bacteria in it, and it is considered healthy to eat.  I have a lot of respect for the work Jimmy Swaggart has done over the years, and would likely still be a monthly supporter had the scandals not occurred, along with changes in his doctrine, but I never agreed with everything he taught.  This is one of those areas where I couldn't accept what he was saying.  It doesn't make logical sense.  I think there is a hatred for alcohol among Pentecostals, and even conservative Baptists, and they consider it unclean.  They cannot believe Jesus partook of it because he would never do anything unclean or sinful, so they had to find ways to make wine into grape juice.  Jesus never did commit sin, and he clearly did drink wine, so it cannot be sinful in moderation. 

 

Bacteria is found in lots of things and we have bacteria in our gut. We need intestinal bacteria to digest our food.

 

But leavened bread theoretically contains traces of alcohol - seriously it does. I read somewhere that if you eat a whole loaf of bread in one go, you are consuming the alcohol equivalent of half a glass of wine. The yeast makes the bread rise because it generates carbon dioxide gas, but alcohol is a byproduct just as it is when wine is made. There would be even more alcohol if the bread wasn't baked but the heat boils a lot of the alcohol off.

 

Of course, you could never get drunk on bread for it would be impossible to eat enough and the bread would line your stomach anyway and make the alcohol absorption much slower.

Nevertheless if you eat bread you are consuming alcohol and because Christians who believe drinking alcohol is wrong believe that even a small amount of alcohol is wrong, then theoretically they shouldn't eat bread or bread products. They should definitely avoid sandwiches, biscuits, cakes etc.

[other one]

the alcohol has a fairly low vapor point and what alcohol is created in the bread will evaporate off as it cooks......   same as using wine in your soups and sauces.

I know a person who has this bacteria growing in his digestive tract and if he drinks a lot of any kind of juice with a lot of sugar in it, his own digestive system will make him drunk.....    he lost his drivers license over it until they discovered his problem.

 

 

BTW that phrase new wine is wine where the fermentation is not complete and there is still a lot of sugar in the wine.....   your system pulls that sugar into your blood system very quickly and sucks the alcohol in with it.....   It actually will make you drunker faster and run your blood sugar up in the process and most generally make one a bit silly.  But still that depends on what you have had to eat during the day and especially if you are drinking with a meal.

[RustyAngeL]

This is something everyone needs to decided for themselves. Personally I do not feel that I should drink alcohol, but I do not judge others who choice to do so. That is between them and God.

This is exactally how I feel.  A long time ago God put it on my heart that I was never to touch alcohol period.  But as Lady said it is between the Christian and God.  I guard my testimony of my faith in Christ like a watchdog.  I cannot do something that may make others stumble.  Again that is between myself and God.  Blessings

 

Because He Lives!  Rustyangel