Woman , Man Child, dragon

[Omegaman 3.0]

Well, if not for the situation, it would make for an interesting camping trip:

14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’^a standing where it^b does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 

I assume that means "don't pack a tent either!" No shelter for 3.5 years in the desert - not many places there with much space inside, and not abundant food or water . . .  not your typical picnic! Hmmm . . . .  that instruction seems to say to flee to the mountains . . . . Petra is in a Valley! In any case, God is a God of miracles.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Some here have discussed how could the evil one and his followers not figure out that the woman was hiding in Petra?

Has anyone ever seen how under hypnosis a subject can be made to forget a number? They say they cannot make you do anything against your will under hypnosis, but to me at least this proves the opposite. The artist hypnotizes the subject and tells them not to remember the number four. Wakes them up and asks how many fingers are on each hand?

The subject shrugs with the obvious answer "Five." Count your fingers the artist says. Okay, one, two, three, five six... six? Again, one, two, three, five, six... Well I'll be hornswoggled. I always thought it was five.

Would this ability be beyond Almighty God to provide for his remnant a sanctuary in Petra in the wilderness?

I think the Romans were more interested in making a statement to the Jews by destroying their Temple and Jerusalem, than pursuing those who escaped, such as the christians, to Petra.

Jerusalem and the Temple were their goals.

You don't anticipate a future event? Eusebius said of the 70 A.D. event:

"The people belonging to the church at Jerusalem had been ordered by an oracle revealed to approved men on the spot before the war broke out, to leave the city and dwell in a town of Peraea called Pella" 

[thereselittleflower]

Some here have discussed how could the evil one and his followers not figure out that the woman was hiding in Petra?

Has anyone ever seen how under hypnosis a subject can be made to forget a number? They say they cannot make you do anything against your will under hypnosis, but to me at least this proves the opposite. The artist hypnotizes the subject and tells them not to remember the number four. Wakes them up and asks how many fingers are on each hand?

The subject shrugs with the obvious answer "Five." Count your fingers the artist says. Okay, one, two, three, five six... six? Again, one, two, three, five, six... Well I'll be hornswoggled. I always thought it was five.

Would this ability be beyond Almighty God to provide for his remnant a sanctuary in Petra in the wilderness?

I think the Romans were more interested in making a statement to the Jews by destroying their Temple and Jerusalem, than pursuing those who escaped, such as the christians, to Petra.

Jerusalem and the Temple were their goals.

You don't anticipate a future event? Eusebius said of the 70 A.D. event:

"The people belonging to the church at Jerusalem had been ordered by an oracle revealed to approved men on the spot before the war broke out, to leave the city and dwell in a town of Peraea called Pella" 

He was talking about 70 AD.

The quote is from Ecclesiastical History Book III chapter 5

Chapter 5. The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.

1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months,Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign inJudea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, forRome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.

2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel,relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in myname.

3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalemas in a prison, to use his own words.

6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up as in a prison, they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your question in relationship to this though.

 

 

Well, if not for the situation, it would make for an interesting camping trip:

14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’^a standing where it^b does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 

I assume that means "don't pack a tent either!" No shelter for 3.5 years in the desert - not many places there with much space inside, and not abundant food or water . . .  not your typical picnic! Hmmm . . . .  that instruction seems to say to flee to the mountains . . . . Petra is in a Valley! In any case, God is a God of miracles.

 

As you see Eusebius tells of the abomination of desolation during the 70 AD event, and that this was well documented by Josephus.   I've read Josephus' account and he makes it very clear how the Romans did indeed do this.  And it wasn't just any old day, it was the Passover so there were millions shut up in Jerusalem by the Romans.  Josephus, he says, numbers them at 3 million souls.

The next chapter goes on to talk of the famine the Romans forced upon those Jews locked inside of Jerusalem.  The suffering was very, very great.

 

Now is there a future fulfillment to this?  Some people who acknowledge the fulfillment in 70 AD also look for future fulfillment as well.  

 

I'm not sure what you mean by petra being in a valley  - it's deep in the desert.

Deep within the deserts of Jordan lies the ancient city of Petra. Through a narrow gorge it emerges into view, revealing awe-inspiring monuments cut into the surrounding cliffs. 

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/petra

Edited October 24, 2015 by thereselittleflower

[Kan]

Revelation 12 (NASB95)

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;**

2 and she was with child†††; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems.

4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child†††, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

7 And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11 “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12 “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13 And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

15 And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

16 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17 So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

**Genesis 37:9–10 (NASB95)

9 Now he had still another dream, and related it to his brothers, and said, “Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.”

10 He related it to his father and to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Shall I and your mother and your brothers actually come to bow ourselves down before you to the ground?”

Joseph being the 12th star, the woman in Revelation 12 is prophetically referring to Israel.

††† Jesus the Messiah

the dragon self explanatory

 

There's no doubt that the woman represents the church Israel which was looking forward to the Messiah. But not all those of Israel are Israel, not all Jews are the sons and daughters of Abraham, except those who share the faith of Abraham.

Israel in general did not recognize the Savior, but those led by the Spirit of God did, such as the parents of John the baptist, the officiating priest at the temple dedication of the Christ child, the shepherds and the wise men of the east.

After Christ returned to heaven, He left behind the true Israelites - the believers - disciples who were commissioned to take the gospel to all nations, and anyone who accepted the gospel would be considered the true Israel of God, not the Jews as a nation, whose time was up at the stoning of Stephen, the end of the 490 years as spoken of by Daniel. 

The 1260 years of the church in the wilderness corresponds with the reign of the Papacy for 1260 years from 538 to 1798 AD, the saints were heavily persecuted during this time and had to flee society. There is no Petra and desert hiding of Israel.

"The remnant of her seed" "keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus." The Jewish nation does not have the faith of Jesus, and Christendom or the Papacy does not have the commandments of God, they have their own commandments which replace God's as given to Israel. So where is the true Israel today? It has to be a people who have not rejected the law of God nor the faith of Jesus.

Revelation was written after Jerusalem was over, the temple was gone, the nation was no longer under God's commission, the Jewish people in Jerusalem were dead. The only Israel left was those scattered into the nations, and the true Israel of God was only ever, and has only ever been, the faithful to the gospel.

The remnant are those living in the last days. So if the wilderness experience was that of Israel, how does that fit into the prophecy of the child - Jesus and the following centuries up to now?

It was Rome which ruled at the time of Christ, and it was Rome which became the persecuting dragon of the dark ages. The remnant are those who have followed the teachings of the reformation, and not united with Rome again.

The remnant has to be the same as the beginning - the disciples kept the Sabbath, the last people on earth do the same, but the dragon and the world honor Sunday instead of the Sabbath. The remnant will incur the wrath of Satan, but they will be faithful and saved, the rest will perish. 

Daniel 7:25, predicts that the Antichrist would change times and laws, while in contrast, the remnant keep the commandments of God (not of the Papacy) and have the faith of Jesus.

[Omegaman 3.0]

Some here have discussed how could the evil one and his followers not figure out that the woman was hiding in Petra?

Has anyone ever seen how under hypnosis a subject can be made to forget a number? They say they cannot make you do anything against your will under hypnosis, but to me at least this proves the opposite. The artist hypnotizes the subject and tells them not to remember the number four. Wakes them up and asks how many fingers are on each hand?

The subject shrugs with the obvious answer "Five." Count your fingers the artist says. Okay, one, two, three, five six... six? Again, one, two, three, five, six... Well I'll be hornswoggled. I always thought it was five.

Would this ability be beyond Almighty God to provide for his remnant a sanctuary in Petra in the wilderness?

I think the Romans were more interested in making a statement to the Jews by destroying their Temple and Jerusalem, than pursuing those who escaped, such as the christians, to Petra.

Jerusalem and the Temple were their goals.

You don't anticipate a future event? Eusebius said of the 70 A.D. event:

"The people belonging to the church at Jerusalem had been ordered by an oracle revealed to approved men on the spot before the war broke out, to leave the city and dwell in a town of Peraea called Pella" 

He was talking about 70 AD.

The quote is from Ecclesiastical History Book III chapter 5

Chapter 5. The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.

1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months,Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign inJudea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, forRome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.

2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel,relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in myname.

3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.

4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable—all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

5. But it is necessary to state that this writer records that the multitude of those who were assembled from all Judea at the time of the Passover, to the number of three million souls, were shut up in Jerusalemas in a prison, to use his own words.

6. For it was right that in the very days in which they had inflicted suffering upon the Saviour and the Benefactor of all, the Christ of God, that in those days, shut up as in a prison, they should meet with destruction at the hands of divine justice.

7. But passing by the particular calamities which they suffered from the attempts made upon them by the sword and by other means, I think it necessary to relate only the misfortunes which the famine caused, that those who read this work may have some means of knowing that God was not long in executing vengeance upon them for their wickedness against the Christ of God.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your question in relationship to this though.

 

 

Well, if not for the situation, it would make for an interesting camping trip:

14“When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’^a standing where it^b does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 

I assume that means "don't pack a tent either!" No shelter for 3.5 years in the desert - not many places there with much space inside, and not abundant food or water . . .  not your typical picnic! Hmmm . . . .  that instruction seems to say to flee to the mountains . . . . Petra is in a Valley! In any case, God is a God of miracles.

 

As you see Eusebius tells of the abomination of desolation during the 70 AD event, and that this was well documented by Josephus.   I've read Josephus' account and he makes it very clear how the Romans did indeed do this.  And it wasn't just any old day, it was the Passover so there were millions shut up in Jerusalem by the Romans.  Josephus, he says, numbers them at 3 million souls.

The next chapter goes on to talk of the famine the Romans forced upon those Jews locked inside of Jerusalem.  The suffering was very, very great.

 

Now is there a future fulfillment to this?  Some people who acknowledge the fulfillment in 70 AD also look for future fulfillment as well.  

 

I'm not sure what you mean by petra being in a valley  - it's deep in the desert.

Deep within the deserts of Jordan lies the ancient city of Petra. Through a narrow gorge it emerges into view, revealing awe-inspiring monuments cut into the surrounding cliffs. 

http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/petra

I have been there Therese, I know where it is, and what it looks like, lol. Not sure how things are deep in the desert, instead of out in the desert. It is in a valley (Wadi Musa.- Valley of Moses). The relevance of my posts, was to several things being discussed - the notion that the fleeing might be to Petra - I pointed out that in 70 A.D., beleivers fled to Pella, not Petra. I was also noting, that Jesus said to flee to the mountains - Pella might at least meet that discription, being in foothills, where as Petra does not, being in a low part after a long trek across a pretty flat desert. On the way to Petra (from Amman, the way I went) I recall seeing Bedouin shepherds with their sheep, and wondering how on Earth that works, since at that point, there was not a plant in sight, just flat, dry ground. I guess if Bedouin shepherds can keep sheep alive in that wilderness, God can do at least as much!

A.D. 70 might be a type or a prefillment of the abomination of desolation that Jesus referred to:

He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

but I do not think it fulfilled the part about a 7 year covenant, that seems to me more likely to be an event yet to come, not anything that has yet occurred. 

 

[Kan]

The seven year period was the last of 70 weeks or 490 literal years given to Israel to take advantage of God's grace to them as the chosen nation. Those 490 years began as told in Daniel with "the command to rebuild Jerusalem going forth" or coming into effect. that was in 457 BC. It was predicted that Messiah would be cut off during the middle of that last 7 years.

The ministry of Christ began 3 1/2 years before His death, and 3 1/2 years after that, Paul was called to bring the gospel to the Gentiles, which was the same year Stephen was stoned - the first martyr by the hand of the Jews, which also marked the end of the 490 years for Israel to repent and welcome the Messiah into their hearts. But they failed, and now without the protection of God, only doom awaited them, as the foretold destruction of Jerusalem would take place.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I don't know Kan, not sure I have a handle on this, but it looks to me as though there are 70 weeks decreed, It mentions 7 weeks and 62 weeks (69 weeks) and then Messiah is cut off (killed I assume. That would leave one week to go, not Jesus being cut of in the middle of the last week.

Then a ruler who is to come, sets up a covenant for one week, the last week I assume, and in the middle of that, he set up the abomination of desolation, and that will last until the end decreed is poured out on him. I do not think Christ's ministry is in view in that 70th week, but is in the end of the 69th week, but that is just my ignorant take.

[Kan]

Daniel 9:24 KJV "70 weeks are determined upon thy people" to get it together.

9:25  - from the command to rebuild Jerusalem until the Messiah 69 weeks. That leaves one week till the end of the 70. (Jesus appeared for His public ministry at His baptism.)

9:26 - After the walls were rebuilt, there would be 62 weeks left until the Messiah. That means it took 7 weeks to build the walls.

9:27 - In the middle of the last week the Messiah is cut off or killed. He would put an end to the sacrificial system, which the Jewish nation had perverted until it became an abomination.

If we calculate these times in vision time, they don't fit anywhere, but if vision days are literal years it's easy to work out.

70 weeks = 490 days = 490 years and so forth.

490 years from 457 BC to 34 AD

483 years till the appearance of Christ in public

49 years of rebuilding the walls

another 434 years until the Messiah

In the middle of the last 7 years, the Messiah is cut off.

--------------------------------------------------

457 BC the command to rebuild

408 BC the walls repaired

27 AD Christ is publicly baptized

31 AD He is crucified

34 AD the gospel goes to the Gentiles (the times of the gentiles begins and the time for the Jews is over)

 

 

Edited October 25, 2015 by Kan

[Kan]

The 490 year prophecy was given to Daniel as an explanation for the 2300 years, because Daniel was concerned for the people of Israel and the center of its worship the temple, which was supposed to be filled with the glory of God and not abominations. So the angel explains the fate of Israel and how it fits into the greater picture of the temple in heaven and its services by Christ, because the 2300 years is talking about the greater temple in heaven and not the earthly which would come to an end as predicted.

So the prophetic time spans connected with the beginning of the 2300 years relate to the earthly, and the time spans connected to the end of the 2300 years are concerned with the Antichrist trampling on the rightful place of the heavenly sanctuary in the world through the gospel. The title of the Pope is the vicar of Christ (on earth). No he is not.

How did the Antichrist subvert the truth? by setting up itself as the representative of God on earth and making its own false priesthood. But we worship the Lord Jesus Christ as our high priest and we count on His ministry for us in the heavenly temple.

The Papacy was set up in 508 AD, it began to reign in 538 AD, and ended in 1798 AD.

Daniel 12, The 1335 years are from the set up of the Papacy till the end of the 2300 years. The 1290 years are from the set up until the end of the 1260 years of reign.

This same horn power is still alive today, after receiving a deadly wound in 1798 AD, and it will soon have it's last stand before being destroyed by the returning Christ.

[Omegaman 3.0]

I think I would go with some pre-trib scenarios over that, and for me, that is saying something!