Where is Joseph and His Land in the End Times?

[WilliamL]

Isaiah 17:1 The oracle/doom of Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease from [being] a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. 2 The cities of Aroer [are] forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. 3 The fortress/stronghold then/also shall cease from Ephraim, and dominion from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 And in that day it shall come to pass, [that] the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

 

Where is, or will be, this “fortress/stronghold of Ephraim” when Damascus is destroyed?

 

Zech. 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

 

Zechariah prophesied this over 200 years after the Kingdom of Israel/Joseph ceased to exist, and Israel/Joseph disappeared as a distinct people. When this prophecy is fulfilled, where will be (is?) Israel/Joseph?

 

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, who shall as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar,from Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, and the harassing [Qal Active Participle] of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

 

Does not this speak again of a period in the End Times when Ephraim/Joseph and Judah are two distinct peoples, whose brotherhood had been “cut asunder,” but will then be restored? Where are they when this takes place?

[Salty]

Isaiah 17:1 The oracle/doom of Damascus. Behold, Damascus will cease from [being] a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap. 2 The cities of Aroer [are] forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make [them] afraid. 3 The fortress/stronghold then/also shall cease from Ephraim, and dominion from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 And in that day it shall come to pass, [that] the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

 

Where is, or will be, this “fortress/stronghold of Ephraim” when Damascus is destroyed?

 

Zech. 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, [even] Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

 

Zechariah prophesied this over 200 years after the Kingdom of Israel/Joseph ceased to exist, and Israel/Joseph disappeared as a distinct people. When this prophecy is fulfilled, where will be (is?) Israel/Joseph?

 

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, who shall as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people who are left, from Assyria and Egypt, from Pathros and Cush, from Elam and Shinar,from Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, and the harassing [Qal Active Participle] of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

 

Does not this speak again of a period in the End Times when Ephraim/Joseph and Judah are two distinct peoples, whose brotherhood had been “cut asunder,” but will then be restored? Where are they when this takes place?

 

One must 'rightly divide' the timelines given in those two separate prophecies. One is for the last days prior to Christ's coming, and the other is for after Christ's coming when He will re-establish Israel like of old, both the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim put back together in the holy land. That latter joining is for after His coming. Prior though, Ephraim is to be weakened and fall away in the last days prior to Christ's coming, which is when the Damascus reference is. In several of those chapters of Isaiah we're given another picture of the Revelation timing prior to Christ's return, and then events that occur on the day of His return, i.e., the Day of The Lord timing.

[WilliamL]

One must 'rightly divide' the timelines given in those two separate prophecies. One is for the last days prior to Christ's coming, and the other is for after Christ's coming when He will re-establish Israel like of old, both the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim put back together in the holy land. That latter joining is for after His coming. Prior though, Ephraim is to be weakened and fall away in the last days prior to Christ's coming, which is when the Damascus reference is. In several of those chapters of Isaiah we're given another picture of the Revelation timing prior to Christ's return, and then events that occur on the day of His return, i.e., the Day of The Lord timing.

 

I agree that the first two prophecies speak of the time before Christ returns, and the third prophecy speaks of the time afterward.

 

That still begs the question, however of WHERE IS Joseph's land, WHERE IS the stronghold/fortress of Joseph? Until the Church, and the remnant of Judah, and the remnant of Israel acknowledge this issue and learn the answer to these questions, they remain in ignorance of a key element of End Time prophecy.

[Salty]

 

One must 'rightly divide' the timelines given in those two separate prophecies. One is for the last days prior to Christ's coming, and the other is for after Christ's coming when He will re-establish Israel like of old, both the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim put back together in the holy land. That latter joining is for after His coming. Prior though, Ephraim is to be weakened and fall away in the last days prior to Christ's coming, which is when the Damascus reference is. In several of those chapters of Isaiah we're given another picture of the Revelation timing prior to Christ's return, and then events that occur on the day of His return, i.e., the Day of The Lord timing.

 

I agree that the first two prophecies speak of the time before Christ returns, and the third prophecy speaks of the time afterward.

 

That still begs the question, however of WHERE IS Joseph's land, WHERE IS the stronghold/fortress of Joseph? Until the Church, and the remnant of Judah, and the remnant of Israel acknowledge this issue and learn the answer to these questions, they remain in ignorance of a key element of End Time prophecy.

 

 

That land location today is where The Gospel was accepted by the majority of the scattered lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[WilliamL]

 

I agree that the first two prophecies speak of the time before Christ returns, and the third prophecy speaks of the time afterward.

 

That still begs the question, however of WHERE IS Joseph's land, WHERE IS the stronghold/fortress of Joseph? Until the Church, and the remnant of Judah, and the remnant of Israel acknowledge this issue and learn the answer to these questions, they remain in ignorance of a key element of End Time prophecy.

 

 

That land location today is where The Gospel was accepted by the majority of the scattered lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

An answer worthy of a diplomat.

 

Time for some review:

 

Reuben has claim to the birthright of Israel,

 

...but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed [he “lay with Bilhah his father's concubine,” Gen. 35:22], his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph... 1 Chr. 5:1

 

Joseph, the new birthright holder, has two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim. Manasseh was the firstborn. Near the end of Jacob/Israel's life, however, he adopted Joseph's two sons as his own:

 

And Jacob said unto Joseph...thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh...are mine; as Reuben and Simon, they shall be mine. Gen. 48:3,5

Note that in these words, Israel spoke the name of the younger Ephraim first. Note also that Ephraim and Manasseh were to be to Israel “as Reuben and Simon”: that is, as the firstborn and the secondborn. Ephraim's elevation to the position of firstborn was confirmed a few moments later, when Joseph brought Manasseh toward Israel's right hand, and Ephraim toward his left hand. Israel crossed his hands, so he could place his right hand on Ephraim's head and his left hand on Manasseh's.

 

And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him... And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [Manasseh] is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head. And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great;but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations [lit. the fulness/abundance of the nations]. 48:17-19

 

The LORD acknowledged Ephraim's primacy over a thousand years later in this word through the prophet Jeremiah:

 

Thus saith the LORD: ...I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Jer. 31:7, 9

 

When Israel laid his hands upon the heads of Ephraim and Manasseh, he blessed them with these words:

 

God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk...the Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth. Gen. 48:15-16

 

By these words, the descendants of Joseph received the first promise that God made to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob: the promise the become a great nation. The tribes of Joseph (including those who later joined with them) came to be called Israel in later years, just as was promised by the patriarch Israel.

 

To be continued... Feel free to jump in, anyone.

[Salty]

Let's not change... the actual 'promise' Jacob gave to Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh involving Ephraim becoming "a multitude of nations" (plural). And his brother Manasseh also was to become "great" (i.e., a great nation). None of that involves the nation state of Israel in the holy lands today.

 

God split the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" apart from the southern kingdom that was called the "kingdom on Judah" after Solomon's days. Then He caused all the ten tribes of the northern kingdom that was under Ephraim's care to be taken captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes, that while Judah remained in the holy land at Jerusalem/Judea, the tribes of Benjamin and Levi with Judah.

 

The ten northern tribes of the kingdom of Israel (or "house of Israel" after Solomon's days), made up the majority of seed of all the 12 tribes. God scattered them among the Gentiles as He said He would if His people fell away from Him (Deut.4; 28). But He did not lose them. They migrated north and west mainly, into Asia Minor and Europe, which is exactly where The Gospel was preached to after Christ Jesus was rejected by the majority of Jews in Judea.

[WilliamL]

Ah, much more specific, and I agree. But rarely talked about in the Church, to its detriment.

Now the question is, where did Joseph end up in our time?

 

A Patriarchal Prophecy of Joseph's Future

[in the following prophecy, the translations and especially the tenses of the verbs are faithful and literal to the biblical Hebrew. Explanations are noted only when most significant.]

 

Shortly after Jacob's blessing of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh,

 

Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days [b-acharith ha-yomim]. Gen. 49:1

 

Of Joseph he foretold,

 

22 Joseph is a fruitful son/bough, even a fruitful son/bough by a spring/fountain; whose daughters/branches ran/have run over the wall:

 

The doubly-fruitful birthright holder has born so many children that his descendants “ran/have run” over the wall” of the biblical Holy Land, and they are inhabiting other lands. [Qal Perfect verb tense: this is an already completed action in the last days.]

 

23 The archers/masters of arrows have bitterly grieved him and shot him [with arrows] and hate him:

 

In the last days, arrows are missiles. Besides Jacob here, these projectiles have been seen by Dimitri Dudeman, Henry Gruver, Sarah Menet, and many others. Missiles are aimed at a specific places, not at people that are scattered and dispersed. Therefore, Joseph's descendants in the last days must be primarily living together in groups: they are not merely dispersed among the nations.

 

24 But his bow shall remain/abide in strength, and the arms of his hands shall be refined (as gold)/made strong by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob; (from there/then [will be] shepherding the Stone of Israel:)

25 From the God of thy father, who shall help thee;

 

The gathered descendants of Joseph, receiving Divine help, will prevail, being shepherded by the Stone of Israel. [“Shepherding:” Qal Participle; “from there/then:” mi-sham.]

 

and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee [with] blessings of heaven from above, blessings of depths lying beneath, blessings of breasts and of womb:

26 The blessings of thy father will have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors [?; lit. conceiving] unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be for the head of Joseph, and for the crown of the head of the separated/consecrated one of his brethren.

 

Awesome blessings are yet to come after the battle and deliverance of Joseph's people. [“For the head,” “for the crown:” the preposition l- is used, which means to or for, not on.]

 

To sum up: “In the last days,” Joseph's multiplied descendants, living together in some place or places, will be attacked by missiles and be grievously afflicted and hated, but they will prevail with Divine help. The Stone of Israel will personally shepherd his people of Joseph, who will thereafter be greatly exalted and blessed.

 

In the vision of George Washington (a patriarchal prophecy in its own right), he was shown that “hordes of armed men” will invade America and “devastate the whole country.” When “the inhabitants of America...[are] well-nigh overcome,” there will “descend from the heavens...legions of white spirits” who will join them, and they will then become victorious. “[T]he whole world united shall not prevail against her ['the Republic'],” which shall once again flourish.

 

The parallels between these two End Time visions are beyond coincidence.

 

Isaiah 17's prophecy (partly quoted in the first post) about the fall of the”fortress of Ephraim” (:3), the desolation of his land (:9), Divine intervention (:13), and the invaders fleeing away “like a rolling thing before the whirlwind,” (:13), is another prophetic witness of these things. Washington saw “the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought...”

Some of you may be old enough to remember when this country was called “Fortress America.”

 

Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36

[Salty]

Ah, much more specific, and I agree. But rarely talked about in the Church, to its detriment.

Now the question is, where did Joseph end up in our time?

 

A Patriarchal Prophecy of Joseph's Future

[in the following prophecy, the translations and especially the tenses of the verbs are faithful and literal to the biblical Hebrew. Explanations are noted only when most significant.]

 

Shortly after Jacob's blessing of Joseph's sons Ephraim and Manasseh,

 

Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days [b-acharith ha-yomim]. Gen. 49:1

 

Of Joseph he foretold,

 

22 Joseph is a fruitful son/bough, even a fruitful son/bough by a spring/fountain; whose daughters/branches ran/have run over the wall:

 

The doubly-fruitful birthright holder has born so many children that his descendants “ran/have run” over the wall” of the biblical Holy Land, and they are inhabiting other lands. [Qal Perfect verb tense: this is an already completed action in the last days.]

 

23 The archers/masters of arrows have bitterly grieved him and shot him [with arrows] and hate him:

 

In the last days, arrows are missiles. Besides Jacob here, these projectiles have been seen by Dimitri Dudeman, Henry Gruver, Sarah Menet, and many others. Missiles are aimed at a specific places, not at people that are scattered and dispersed. Therefore, Joseph's descendants in the last days must be primarily living together in groups: they are not merely dispersed among the nations.

 

24 But his bow shall remain/abide in strength, and the arms of his hands shall be refined (as gold)/made strong by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob; (from there/then [will be] shepherding the Stone of Israel:)

25 From the God of thy father, who shall help thee;

 

The gathered descendants of Joseph, receiving Divine help, will prevail, being shepherded by the Stone of Israel. [“Shepherding:” Qal Participle; “from there/then:” mi-sham.]

 

and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee [with] blessings of heaven from above, blessings of depths lying beneath, blessings of breasts and of womb:

26 The blessings of thy father will have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors [?; lit. conceiving] unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be for the head of Joseph, and for the crown of the head of the separated/consecrated one of his brethren.

 

Awesome blessings are yet to come after the battle and deliverance of Joseph's people. [“For the head,” “for the crown:” the preposition l- is used, which means to or for, not on.]

 

To sum up: “In the last days,” Joseph's multiplied descendants, living together in some place or places, will be attacked by missiles and be grievously afflicted and hated, but they will prevail with Divine help. The Stone of Israel will personally shepherd his people of Joseph, who will thereafter be greatly exalted and blessed.

 

In the vision of George Washington (a patriarchal prophecy in its own right), he was shown that “hordes of armed men” will invade America and “devastate the whole country.” When “the inhabitants of America...[are] well-nigh overcome,” there will “descend from the heavens...legions of white spirits” who will join them, and they will then become victorious. “[T]he whole world united shall not prevail against her ['the Republic'],” which shall once again flourish.

 

The parallels between these two End Time visions are beyond coincidence.

 

Isaiah 17's prophecy (partly quoted in the first post) about the fall of the”fortress of Ephraim” (:3), the desolation of his land (:9), Divine intervention (:13), and the invaders fleeing away “like a rolling thing before the whirlwind,” (:13), is another prophetic witness of these things. Washington saw “the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought...”

Some of you may be old enough to remember when this country was called “Fortress America.”

 

Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Luke 21:36

 

The time for that is getting closer today. Yet I do not believe there will be an all out war here on American soil. I believe it involves the destruction of Satan's host on the final day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns with His army of angels. It's going to be over at an instant, suddenly for His enemies. We still alive do not fight it literally, He does it for us.

 

That's why the seed of Joseph and where God scattered his descendents and then blessed them must remain a mystery among the majority until Christ's second coming. Satan and his servants on earth know already, which is why they are preparing to come take a spoil. We have been made weak against physical battle for this purpose in the last days, so Satan's host and those blinded among God's people will know on that day of their defeat that He... did it by His Own Hand, and not by ours. Otherwise Christ's enemies would merely step back and think, "We'll get 'em next time." When our Lord Jesus steps in to waste Satan's armies, there won't be a next time, and they will then 'know' who The GOD really is (see Ezekiel 39). So until that time, The LORD has given those us who understand a blessing, and a point to make our Faith on Him and His Son stronger, so that we might make a 'stand' for Him in the end, fighting the spiritual battle instead.

[WilliamL]

The time for that is getting closer today. Yet I do not believe there will be an all out war here on American soil. I believe it involves the destruction of Satan's host on the final day of this world when our Lord Jesus returns with His army of angels. It's going to be over at an instant, suddenly for His enemies. We still alive do not fight it literally, He does it for us.

 

That's why the seed of Joseph and where God scattered his descendents and then blessed them must remain a mystery among the majority until Christ's second coming. Satan and his servants on earth know already, which is why they are preparing to come take a spoil. We have been made weak against physical battle for this purpose in the last days, so Satan's host and those blinded among God's people will know on that day of their defeat that He... did it by His Own Hand, and not by ours. Otherwise Christ's enemies would merely step back and think, "We'll get 'em next time." When our Lord Jesus steps in to waste Satan's armies, there won't be a next time, and they will then 'know' who The GOD really is (see Ezekiel 39). So until that time, The LORD has given those us who understand a blessing, and a point to make our Faith on Him and His Son stronger, so that we might make a 'stand' for Him in the end, fighting the spiritual battle instead.

 

Mic 5:7 And the remnant of Jacob shall be in the midst of many people as a dew from the LORD, as the showers upon the grass, that tarrieth not for man, nor waiteth for the sons of men. 8 And the remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles in the midst of many people as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep: who, if he go through, both treadeth down, and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver. 9 Thine hand shall be lifted up upon thine adversaries, and all thine enemies shall be cut off.

 

Zech 9:12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee; 13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south. 15 The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

 

These are just two of the OT prophecies that say that the remnant of Jacob will fight against their enemies in the End Times, going forth in the strength of the Lord: "...the arms of his hands shall be made strong by the hands of the Mighty One of Jacob..." The scriptures indicate that the time will be at the end of the 1260 days/3-1/2 times/42 months (which are fulfilled at the 7th Trumpet):

 

Dan. 7:25 And he [the Little Horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him [the Beast] a Mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. ... 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them [for those 42 months/3-1/2 times]: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

The great battle when the Lord descends from the sky to defeat the Beast itself, not the Mouth of the Beast, his spokesman, is the Ezek. 39 = Rev. 19 = Armageddon battle. This comes at the 6th-7th Bowls. which will be fought much later.

[WilliamL]

...why the seed of Joseph and where God scattered his descendents and then blessed them must remain a mystery among the majority until Christ's second coming.

Judging from the lack of response to this string, this certainly seems to be a mystery to the folks on this website!