The Rapture

[rollinTHUNDER]

I have gone into these verses before, but you apparently didn't get a chance to read it, so here goes again:

Now this 62 weeks, does have me puzzled, but this time period once was explained to me. The important thing here is that it was at the cross when this 62 weeks ended. I believe it has something to do with the initial 49 years of the 69 weeks perhaps being the time of construction mentioned in vs. 25.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can certainly see that you are still puzzled. As scripture shows, Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, not 70; and Christ never confirmed a 7 year covenant either.

You are reaching when you assume that Messiah went to the cross in the middle of the 70th week.

Is this your idea of the abomination of desolation? (Matt. 24:15)

Matthew 24:15-16

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

May I remind you that the temple stood standing for more than three (3) decades (70 A.D.) after Jesus went to the cross, so this can not be the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel.

Go fish!

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings RT,

I can certainly see that you are still puzzled.  As scripture shows, Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks, not 70; and Christ never confirmed a 7 year covenant either. 

So you disagree with the scriptures that Jesus came after 69 weeks passed?

Your interpretation of being "cut off" after 69 weeks is in error. You said yourself that it was after 62 weeks, in an attempt to "correct" me.

Both the NT and OT makes clear that the Jews would eventually come into a New Covenant. This New Covenant is the last week of Daniel. There is a break right in the middle of it in order for the gentiles to receive the Gospel and be allowed into the Kingdom BEFORE "ALL ISRAEL" is saved.

Jesus "came unto His own and His own received Him not." Then the "kingdom of God was taken from them and given to a nation (people group) which would produce fruit".

The Jews killed their Messiah in the middle of the 70th week, yet the Daniel Covenant, of their return to righteousness, has not yet been fulfilled. Guess what my friend? Revelations reveal only a 3 1/2 year period and never speaks of 7 years. Each instance of mention of 3 1/2 years in Revelation run concurrently and NOT consequitively. It is during this time (see Deut 4:26-31) wherein Israel shall receive the Gospel (see Romans 11:30-31) and be restored to righteousness with God.

Is this your idea of the abomination of desolation? (Matt. 24:15)

Matthew 24:15-16

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

If you would leave the party-line and examine the scriptures, you would find that the Holy Place, is the Body of Christ.

May I remind you that the temple stood standing for more than three (3) decades (70 A.D.) after Jesus went to the cross, so this can not be the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel.

Non-sequitor.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[rollinTHUNDER]

So you disagree with the scriptures that Jesus came after 69 weeks passed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How do you get that? I never disagreed with the scriptures, only your interpretation of them. Forget about your party-line mumbo jumbo:

Can you pin-point exactly when you think Messiah came to Israel? It appears that you would start when He was baptized by John in the wilderness, is that correct? If so, can you also prove that Messiah was cut off (crucified) exactly 42 months or 3 1/2 years later?

[RustyAngeL]

I go by what scripture says... 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. That to me is the rapture. No the word rapture does not appear however this is what the rapture is. It is a catching away of the church. Hey I don't care if He sends a cab after me so long as I am with Him!

[Dad Ernie]

Can you pin-point exactly when you think Messiah came to Israel?  It appears that you would start when He was baptized by John in the wilderness, is that correct?  If so, can you also prove that Messiah was cut off (crucified) exactly 42 months or 3 1/2 years later?

Greetings RT,

The reason for the Daniel Covenant in the first place is the "return of Israel to righteousness with God". Can you agree with that? It was told Daniel that it would be the Messiah that returns them to righteousness. Would you agree with that? When did the Messiah's ministry to the Jews begin? Was Israel "restored to righteousness" during His ministry? How long did He minister to them? If you understand Romans 9-11 and Deut 4:26-31, et al, then you would understand that Israel has yet another day in which to receive their "right standing with God" and that comes at the end of time, just before the coming of the Lord. Read Ephesians 1-3. Christ is building a "habitation" composed of both Jew and Gentile and it will not be completed until ALL ISRAEL is saved which according to Deut 4:26-31 will be in the latter days in times of great trouble.

So where does that leave us? Jesus ministered to the Jews for about 3 1/2 years - it may be even exact, and I believe it is. I think we must start the 70th week at Cana when Jesus performed His first miracle. There is left 3 1/2 years in which Israel's heart shall be returned to the Messiah, because it will be those Christians, mostly gentiles who will take the Gospel to them in the last days. See Romans 11:30-31.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[rollinTHUNDER]

So where does that leave us? Jesus ministered to the Jews for about 3 1/2 years - it may be even exact, and I believe it is. I think we must start the 70th week at Cana when Jesus performed His first miracle. There is left 3 1/2 years in which Israel's heart shall be returned to the Messiah, because it will be those Christians, mostly gentiles who will take the Gospel to them in the last days. See Romans 11:30-31.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Greetings DE,

You claim Jesus ministered to the Jews for about 3 1/2 years and you believe it may be exact. You'll never be able to prove such a belief, nor will anyone else for that matter. In fact, it doesn't even matter how much or how often He ministered to the Jews. Daniel's prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with Messiah's ministry. In fact, His ministry is not even mentioned in this prophecy.

I believe the reason you are still puzzled is because you are trying to make scripture fit what you believe, when it should be the other way around. And as I often say, "God is not bound by what we believe." So how are we to understand this prophecy:

Daniel 9:25

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

There's an old saying that God is never early, He's never late; He's always right on time. And there's another Prophet that tells us the exact time that Messiah was to come, and his prophecy was very precise and it was fulfilled exactly as it was foretold:

Zechariah 9:9

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

Matthew 21:1-5

"And when they drew nigh unto Jerusalem, and were come to Bethphage, unto the mount of Olives, then sent Jesus two disciples,

(2)Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

(3)And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them; and straightway he will send them.

(4)All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, (5)Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass."

So Messiah came precisely at His appointed time, right at the end of the 69th week. Then [after] the 69th week was ended, they took Him captive and crucified Him. There was no 3 1/2 years to be considered here.

Daniel 9:26

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

There was no 3 1/2 years or 42 months to be counted in this prophecy. If this is not enough proof for you, wait there is more:

You say that Messiah came when He performed His very first miracle in Cana, but when His mother asked Him to do this, Jesus Himself, said that His time had not yet come. So when exactly did Jesus say that His time had come? It was just before the Passover, and before His Triumphal Entry which took place at the end of the 69th week.

Matthew 26:17-18

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

(18)And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples."

I hope this will give you a better understanding of Daniel's prophecy and it's fulfillment.

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction...eVerseID/22016/

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings RT,

You claim Jesus ministered to the Jews for about 3 1/2 years and you believe it may be exact.  You'll never be able to prove such a belief, nor will anyone else for that matter.  In fact, it doesn't even matter how much or how often He ministered to the Jews.  Daniel's prophecy has absolutely nothing to do with Messiah's ministry.  In fact, His ministry is not even mentioned in this prophecy.

Now this REALLY puzzles me. The only place Messiah is mentioned in the KJV is Daniel 9, and we have these statements to verify that indeed Jesus ministered to the Jews during his active ministry for the sole purpose of their salvation:

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

In addition to other prophets, Daniel 9 gives the actual time frame in which these events were to take place to which Daniel could look toward.

What do you think the following verse is all about anyway?

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Remember this prophecy is about Israel.

As for not being able to "prove" the exact dates, I would agree, because I have read numerous commentaries of the starting and ending dates of the 70 weeks and it is rare to find any two that agree. But the only "dates" that "fit the historical facts", are the ones I have already enumerated on.

There's an old saying that God is never early, He's never late; He's always right on time.  And there's another Prophet that tells us the exact time that Messiah was to come, and his prophecy was very precise and it was fulfilled exactly as it was foretold:

Zechariah 9:9

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass."

This gives no reference to the "time", as in Daniel. This above reference speaks to the WHOLE ministry of Jesus, but NOT WHEN.

So Messiah came precisely at His appointed time, right at the end of the 69th week.  Then [after] the 69th week was ended, they took Him captive and crucified Him.  There was no 3 1/2 years to be considered here.

In the Gospels, when you see where Jesus said: "My time is not yet.." is referring specifically to the crucifixition:

Matthew 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

John 7:8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

Mark 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

This is not speaking of the Lord's ministry to Israel for their salvation, for THAT began 3 1/2 years prior to the cross.

And as we agree, Jesus came at the END of the 69th week, leaving 3 1/2 years AFTER the cross, even after the salvation of the gentiles in which the Jews shall be saved.

Sorry, RT, you have bought into the party line, and you are the one that remains confused.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[ajesuschrist_mathetes]

Google:Daniel 9:27 "Jesus Christ" antichrist

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=danie...G=Google+Search

Google:Daniel 9:27 "Jesus Christ" antichrist Rapture

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Danie...G=Google+Search

Edited January 24, 2005 by ajesuschrist_mathetes

[rollinTHUNDER]

Sorry, RT, you have bought into the party line, and you are the one that remains confused.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry? Well maybe you are, but I know you are the one that said you were still puzzled at Daniel 9:26, not me. I have no problem with this prophecy whatsoever. You are the one trying to make a case for a 3 1/2 year ministry, and that the tribulation will only be 3 1/2 years in duration. I'm just waiting for you to prove it. All I see so far is assumptions based on your own personal interpretation and speculation. Sure, Jesus began His ministry by doing signs, wonders and miracles, but this has nothing to do with the 70th week, especially when it occurred before the 69th week had ended, and scripture is very, very clear that He was cut off after the 69th week, yet you must begin your version of the 70th week before Messiah was even cut off, 3 1/2 years before. Why would God begin the 70th week before the 69th was finished? Is there overlapping weeks? Just call me on the partyline and let me know when you are finally able to prove this.

Oh yeah, and good luck!

Also, don't forget to remember that God is not bound by what we believe.