I want to know what you think about this

[nebula]

I went all over this world at one time searching out the people who claim to be casting out demons. I went to south america all over north america canada europe israel the middle east ect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm glad you have the money, time and resources to do all that travelling around the world!

And you did this just to search for people casting out demons?

[kroschild]

As though the HOLY SPIRIT is different some how between the ONE that was in Elijah and the ONE that was in Paul or Matthew or CHRIST. There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. There has always been only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The SPIRIT of our FATHER in heaven is the HOLY SPIRIT.

No one is saying that there is more than one Spirit--we are saying that he did not LIVE IN people until after Jesus resurrection. Just wanted to clarify what we meant

I think I have seen a woman actually possessed by a demon--but she wasn't a Christian at the time. And no one was claiming that she was possessed, it just appeared to us present that she might have been. The problem with knowing if someone is actually possessed by a demon is those pesky things' tendency to be invisible to the naked eye! Seriously though, I see no evidence that people cannot be possessed today. I also see no evidence that Christians cannot refuse the Spirit and accept a demon into themselves. I just refuse, based on scripture, to beleive that a Christian, indwelt by the Spirit, could be possessed. And since I know someone will ask: I do not believe that both can occur, because then where would the protection of the Spirit be?! I think that a Christian must have a heart in a state where a demon is welcomed in--whether or not they say "I want a demon", their life and heart can be accepting to one. In the cases of non-voluntary possession in the Bible, the people possessed were not Christians. Even IF you claim that Ananias and Sapphira were "possessed" it is clear that THEY themselves welcomed the demon--they are asked why THEY have lied to the Spirit!

Seeking Truth,

KrosChild

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let me make sure Im understanding what you said.....

There are times when we as Christians dont have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

Is that right? I disagree with that statement KrosChild.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooh, that wasn't clear was it? Sorry--it was written in haste. What I meant was, a Christian having the Spirit dwelling in them, in power cannot be possessed. As in, there can be no involuntary possession.

The scripture that Dad Ernie pointed out sums it up well:

Matt. 12

29

[nebula]

The 2nd area of contention is whether a Christian can be indwelt by a demonic spirit, and again I refer to Jesus own words:

Matt 12:24-29 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And Paul goes on to say:

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

REMEMBER: Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Revelation we find that the Beast wages war against the saints of God, but NOT until they have received the SEAL of the Holy Spirit. Once Sealed by the Holy Spirit, NO demonic spirit can indwell a Christian. They may be able to destroy the body, but they CANNOT destroy the soul.

Many a so called "Christian" has believed in Christ, yet we see that even demons believe - AND TREMBLE. These so called "Christians" are met on the day of Judgment with this:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

DE -

I appreciate your research into Scripture, however, I do not see what these verses have to do with demon possession exactly? I only see the first one dealing with demons, but Jesus wasn't talking about possession - rather He was answering the challenge against Him about the power and authority He was using. Thus, using that passage to argue your point is like trying to take the answer to "B" and use it to answer "A".

Have you ever had any personal experience with demons? Would you learn how to play golf from someone who only read about golf or from someone who actually played golf?

I have. I've been a Christian since I was maybe 4 or 5 years old. Yet I had to deal with demon possession in my own life. It was very scary for me, especially since I was so young when it began. Yet I was a Christian! One time, I recognized a demon manifesting itself thorugh me - and I had to cast it out of myself! I can anticipate now what challenges will be thrown at me for my saying this. But I know what happened. I know who I am and who I was then. I was there. I experienced it. You weren't. I know what I went through.

And some of the testimonies I have heard were not from "big name" ministers. They were people I know and am close to. And an actor can't act changes in body size that dissapeared when the demon left!

Sue, there's a lot we don't understand, and a lot we need to re-learn about casting demons out. Demons come in if you let them - and you can let them in through something as simple as unforgiveness - even if you do'nt realize you are doing this. Even a Christian can give a demon this right to access, and you need to deal with that unforgiveness (or whatever right to access you gave the demon) to cast the demon out.

[Ovedya]

the Holy Spirit did not indwell before Pentecost, as far as I can tell.

The Holy Spirit indwelled elijah, elisha enoch, daniel the prophets john the babtist. CHRIST ect.

2Pe 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

In the love of CHRIST

A son of man

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually this is a fairly common misconception. The first to have ever received the Spirit inwardly were the apostles, shortly following the Lord's resurrection:

"And when He said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:22)

This was the fulfillment of the Lord's word in John 7:39.

If you examine the language of the Old Testament and the New Testament respectively, you will see that the Holy Spirit did not actually inwell a person until after the Lord's resurrection. This is because the matter of sin and death were both taken care of by Christ's shed blood. Therefore,the Lord's death and resurrection made possible the release of the Spirit, that He could come and indwell our human spirit.

Up until the Lord's all-inclusive, all-conquoring, and life-releasing death and resurrection, the Spirit was only content to dwell with men, upon men, or empowering men to speak as God's representatives on the earth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed yours is the misconseption. As though the HOLY SPIRIT is different some how between the ONE that was in Elijah and the ONE that was in Paul or Matthew or CHRIST. There is only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. There has always been only ONE HOLY SPIRIT. The SPIRIT of our FATHER in heaven is the HOLY SPIRIT.

Mr 12:29

Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

In CHRIST JESUS

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm afraid you misunderstand. I never said the Holy Spirit was a different Spirit.

[Guest idied2]

I went all over this world at one time searching out the people who claim to be casting out demons. I went to south america all over north america canada europe israel the middle east ect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm glad you have the money, time and resources to do all that travelling around the world!

And you did this just to search for people casting out demons?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I learned very early in life (before the calling of the LORD) that money is the easiest thing on earth to obtain in large quantities. After the LORD opened my eyes. I went searching for One believer that the power of the SPIRIT bore witness of. I even put up a thread here intitled "WHERE DID THE POWER GO". Of corse I was accused of searching after a sign. Which was not the case at all. I was just searching for just one believer who the LORD Put HIS seal on by the power. Here is my final analogy of that thread.

I finally found in scripture where the power went.

Joh 9:4

I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.

So the night is here. which means the day of the LORD is at the door.

Am 5:20

Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?

Mt 6:23

But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Lu 11:35

Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.

That was then but now I understand why the LORD is doing it this way. If they weren't all deluded in one way or another then causing all to enter into the great tribulation, which is the beginning of HIS wrath, would be unjustified.

This scripture says all who dwell on the earth.

Lu 21:35

For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Now these are the ones who I have not met yet. This could be because they are just now being woke up. And are most likely those who will gather the sheep during the great tribulation.

Re 3:10

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In CHRIST JESUS

[Guest idied2]

Greetings All,

I am amazed and sort of amused at the opposite sides taken here. Regardless of my experiences, I MUST rely on the Word of God, and there seems to be two main areas in which someone is confused.

Whether or not the prophets were "indwelt" with the Holy Spirit seems pretty emphatically answered by Jesus:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

It was the "mantle" of Elijah that gave him and Elisha the power to perform certain acts. The cloth itself did not have any power, but it was representative of Jesus comment above: "He dwelleth with you..."

The 2nd area of contention is whether a Christian can be indwelt by a demonic spirit, and again I refer to Jesus own words:

Matt 12:24-29 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And Paul goes on to say:

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

REMEMBER: Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

In Revelation we find that the Beast wages war against the saints of God, but NOT until they have received the SEAL of the Holy Spirit. Once Sealed by the Holy Spirit, NO demonic spirit can indwell a Christian. They may be able to destroy the body, but they CANNOT destroy the soul.

Many a so called "Christian" has believed in Christ, yet we see that even demons believe - AND TREMBLE. These so called "Christians" are met on the day of Judgment with this:

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These verses will probably not change anyone's mind, but I do pray you give them some sincere consideration.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hello Dad Ernie

I believe that everything that you said here is true except that elijah had faith in his mantle and did not have the spirit of GOD in him. It wasn't his mantle that spoke the words of faith over the weather or the captain and fifty or the prophets of baal or the little boy. There are no scriptures that even emply that his mantle was his arch of the covenent. I believe that elijah used his mantle once to claim elisha and once to part the river much like CHRIST using the mud or spit. Elijah was walking in the SPIRIT of GOD and was not even of the world in his day. So the scripture you gave doesn't include him.

In CHRIST JESUS

[deliveranceminister]

Nebula,

I love your testimony. Can I put it on my website ?

I think the Lord is using you to testify that a Christian can have demons inside them. All Christians need deliverance if only they could see with spiritual eyes. I hope Christians realize that we are triune body, soul and spirit. The demons that we have allowed to enter are in the body and soul. The Holy Spirit is in the spirit. The spirit is where demons can not be if the Holy Spirit is there.

Deliverance Minister

Helena

Edited January 16, 2005 by deliveranceminister

[Ovedya]

DM,

Your analogy strongly suggest some really serious and problematic situations. The biggest problem is if you do not believe that once you are the Lord's you are his completely, then essentially every believer can have a demon at any time. Satan and his demons can take conrol of you or me for any reason at any time, in any place. If that's the case then casting out demons would be a huge problem in the churches! We would have no time to read our Bibles, listen to sermon tapes, drive our cars, work, or do much of anything for having to cast a new demon out every time we turn around.

The only possible remedy for demon posession would be for the Lord to glorify us immediately - for glorification is the completion of God's sanctifying work, which is a sanctification of the spirit, soul, and body - in that order. So essentially we are all doomed to lives of demon posession because our glorification doesn't take place until the Lord returns!

This is just not Biblical. The Bible never explicitly states that a genuine believer can be posessed by a demon. But it does explicitly state that once a person believes into Christ he has accepted and acquired the redemption of Christ's blood; and he has inhereted eternal life.

Redemption means "bought back," or "re-purchased." If you pawn your most precious item, then re-purchase - redeem - that item back from the pawn broker, that item is yours to do with as you wish. The same is absolutely true of God's eternal redemption through the Lord's blood. Christ has paid the absolute price for man's inheritance of eternal life. As such, He has absolute and complete control over His people, His household.

Now, the only thing missing from this little analogy is the fact that unlike a small inanimate object, we have a will. Previously our will was completely under Satan's influence. There existed no desire whatsoever to do the Lord's will. However, after having been redeemed the Lord gave us a new heart, and along with it, a new nature. Within this nature is the natural propensity to carry out God's will. So, the insufferable bondage to Satan's will was broken, but there still exists the sin, which remains with its own nature. Paul outlines the entire case in Romans 6-8.

Satan's influence is limited with respect that he can only affect our environment, to cause our inherant sin nature to rise to the surface. Satan cannot directly posess our person (body, soul, and spirit) because we have been committed to the Lord through His shed blood. But he can posess our environments. He can influence us through subtle means - through our immediate environment, through our work and home climates, and through various other means. But Satan cannot have posession of our bodies at any time, because we belong to the Lord. And once the Lord has redeemed something, it stays redeemed.

[nebula]

I learned very early in life (before the calling of the LORD) that money is the easiest thing on earth to obtain in large quantities. After the LORD opened my eyes. I went searching for One believer that the power of the SPIRIT bore witness of. I even put up a thread here intitled "WHERE DID THE POWER GO". Of corse I was accused of searching after a sign. Which was not the case at all. I was just searching for just one believer who the LORD Put HIS seal on by the power. Here is my final analogy of that thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, now that you know what everyone else is doing wrong - what are you doing that is right?

How is the power of the SPIRIT bearing witness in your life?

What are your testimonies?

[deliveranceminister]

[The only possible remedy for demon posession would be for the Lord to glorify us immediately - for glorification is the completion of God's sanctifying work, which is a sanctification of the spirit, soul, and body - in that order. So essentially we are all doomed to lives of demon posession because our glorification doesn't take place until the Lord returns!

I did not say this, you did. What you say is not scripture.

The Lord gave the remedy for dealing with demons Mark 16:17. He will not remove your demons because he told you to do it.

The demons are in the flesh and soul not in the spirit. The demons may not affect a Christians spirit 1 Cor 6 : 17. Rom 8 : 16 He that is joined to the Lord is also on with THE SPIRIT.

This is just not Biblical. The Bible never explicitly states that a genuine believer can be posessed by a demon. But it does explicitly state that once a person believes into Christ he has accepted and acquired the redemption of Christ's blood; and he has inhereted eternal life.

Where in the Bible does it explicitly say that a Christian can not have demons inside the flesh or the soul. What about peter? Satan entered him. Jesus Christ cast out demons IN CHURCH (synagogue) Mark 1 : 23 - 27 and Mark 1: 39 - 42.

Deliverance (casting out of demons ) is the Children's Bread Mark 7: 25 - 30. Will you eat of the Children' Bread?

When you were saved were you automatically perfect ? So , when you were saved your demons did not automatically come out. The Lord said to cast them out.

Deliverance ( casting out of demons) is part of Salvation . Are you really saved? If you are than you have cast out demons ( Jesus Christ gave the BELIEVER the authority to cast out demons Mark 16 :17.

You stated that santification will cause demons to leave your body. There is no scripture to support this logic.

What scripture explicitly says that santification will cast out a demon? When did Jesus Christ use santification as a method to cast out demons? Give scripture that says explicitly that santification is the method to cast out demons.

No offense, ok

Love and Peace in Christ Jesus,

Helena

Edited January 16, 2005 by deliveranceminister