why weeks don't mean weeks in Daniel

[seandavids]

I am perplexed at how so many theologians have interpreted Daniel 9 and the seventy sevens to be interpreted as weeks of years

 

when the angels himself tells Daniel "understand the vision concerns the time of the end"

 

and "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath"

"because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end"

 

the vision is completely about the rise of the antichrist, the antichrist is completely at the end of time

 

the the kings of Media  and Persia and Greece are represented by the ram and the goat, but can human kings and princes hold angels hostage for 21 days

 

I think these kingdoms represented by the animals do infact represent what would happen on earth with the human kingdoms and its human empires but the scripture is more about whats going to happen in the heavenly realm and the change of power within the principalities and powers in the heavens

[Cyrus]

.

Daniel was taken into the Babylonian captivity as a child. He was raised up during Babylon's 70 year rule.

Daniel was familiar with Jeremiah's prophecy that Babylon's rule would only last 70 years and he counted

the number of years and determined that Babylon's time was up. Indeed that was what the mysterious

handwriting on Babylon's wall... that Daniel interpreted... also said... " Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. "

Those are Aramaic words which when translated literally read: counted and counted, weighed and divided.

This relates to Daniel 12 = time, times and half-time = the time period of Babylon's rule and the destruction

of the power of the holy people = 70 years. On that very night the mysterious handwriting appeared

on Babylon's palace wall, Cyrus' troops conquered Babylon via a secret invasion. One might even say

that Cyrus conquered Babylon suddenly and unexpectedly "like a thief"... Cyrus is an archetype of Christ.

At the beginning of Daniel 9, Daniel was in prayer because he knew the timing... that Babylon's 70 years

had ended... and God would deliver Israel. Gabriel tells Daniel that at the beginning of his prayer the

commandment went out. What commandment ? Cyrus' decree for a portion of Israel to return to

Jerusalem and rebuild the temple [Ezra 1.] Gabriel then tells Daniel the mysterious "70 weeks" prophecy

which also symbolically dovetails with Babylon's 70 years, Israel's destruction, captivity and liberation.

Notice the number 62 in the "70 weeks" prophecy. Interestingly, this relates to the first verse of Daniel 9,

"Darius the Mede." Many Bible scholars [me included] believe "Darius the Mede" is another title for Cyrus.

That means Cyrus was 62 years old when he conquered Babylon [Daniel 5:31.]

Ironically, the world is now in a repeat historical pattern... another 70 year Babylonian rule and captivity.

We are also in a repeat historical pattern as the first coming of Christ.

.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Cyrus

[Riverwalker]

Okay add this to your thinking

 

70 x 7   490

 

the amount of years that God forgave the Jews in between His last formal prophet Malachi and John the Baptist

 

And 70 x 7 is how many times we are to forgive others

 

not sure how it applies, but there it is

[seandavids]

.

Daniel was taken into the Babylonian captivity as a child. He was raised up during Babylon's 70 year rule.

Daniel was familiar with Jeremiah's prophecy that Babylon's rule would only last 70 years and he counted

the number of years and determined that Babylon's time was up. Indeed that was what the mysterious

handwriting on Babylon's wall... that Daniel interpreted... also said... " Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. "

Those are Aramaic words which when translated literally read: counted and counted, weighed and divided.

This relates to Daniel 12 = time, times and half-time = the time period of Babylon's rule and the destruction

of the power of the holy people = 70 years. On that very night the mysterious handwriting appeared

on Babylon's palace wall, Cyrus' troops conquered Babylon via a secret invasion. One might even say

that Cyrus conquered Babylon suddenly and unexpectedly "like a thief"... Cyrus is an archetype of Christ.

At the beginning of Daniel 9, Daniel was in prayer because he knew the timing... that Babylon's 70 years

had ended... and God would deliver Israel. Gabriel tells Daniel that at the beginning of his prayer the

commandment went out. What commandment ? Cyrus' decree for a portion of Israel to return to

Jerusalem and rebuild the temple [Ezra 1.] Gabriel then tells Daniel the mysterious "70 weeks" prophecy

which also symbolically dovetails with Babylon's 70 years, Israel's destruction, captivity and liberation.

Notice the number 62 in the "70 weeks" prophecy. Interestingly, this relates to the first verse of Daniel 9,

"Darius the Mede." Many Bible scholars [me included] believe "Darius the Mede" is another title for Cyrus.

That means Cyrus was 62 years old when he conquered Babylon [Daniel 5:31.]

Ironically, the world is now in a repeat historical pattern... another 70 year Babylonian rule and captivity.

We are also in a repeat historical pattern as the first coming of Christ.

.

I'm in the process of reading Jeremiah again but I believe a quick look at chapter 25 concerning the seventy years it was decreed the seventy years were alloted to be in captivity in Babylon, and in Daniels prophecy he was told the prophesy concerns the end of time

 

I don't believe the two are talking about the same thing

[rjp34652]

I am perplexed at how so many theologians have interpreted Daniel 9 and the seventy sevens to be interpreted as weeks of years

 

when the angels himself tells Daniel "understand the vision concerns the time of the end"

 

and "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath"

"because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end"

 

the vision is completely about the rise of the antichrist, the antichrist is completely at the end of time

 

the the kings of Media  and Persia and Greece are represented by the ram and the goat, but can human kings and princes hold angels hostage for 21 days

 

I think these kingdoms represented by the animals do infact represent what would happen on earth with the human kingdoms and its human empires but the scripture is more about whats going to happen in the heavenly realm and the change of power within the principalities and powers in the heavens

 

It has been widely acknowledged for centuries that interpretation of the beasts in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation are taken to mean both the alignment of powers and principalities in the heavens (1) as well as on earth.    It has been widely acknowledged that the two are linked.   What happens in heaven affects life on earth.  What is decided upon earth has a direct correlation upon things in heaven.   The prophets indicated this truth, the apostles wrote about it and Jesus taught it.

 

The time differential in terms of weeks of years has two sources, one Biblical and one not.

 

The Biblical reference has its root in Mosaic law, wherein God stated that every seventh day would be a day of rest called the sabbath day.   On that day no secular work was to be done.   It was a day to rest from one's labor - not for trips to Home Depot & the Mall to buy stuff that created or supported more work and certainly not for employment in those places on that particular day.   But I digress......

 

The sabbath day was to be observed at the end of a week of days - 7 of them.   But God also commanded a sabbath YEAR of rest.  An entire year was to be taken off, wherein the ground was to lie fallow, debts were to be released, real property which was loaned or borrowed was to be returned and so on.  The sabbath year, called shemitah (pronunced schmee-tah) marked the end of a series of seven years and is referred to in the Bible as a week of years.  The problem with the law was that the Hebrews never observed it.  As a result God punished them with the loss of their kingdom and slavery in Babylon.   Both the book of Daniel and the historic record tells us that the period of time in bondage in Babylon was 70 years - one year for each sabbath year, shemitah, that the Hebrews failed to observed.  The mathematics are consistent.  Once the shemitah was satisfied, the Jews returned to Israel.  But there is more........

 

At the end of seven shemitah years (7*7=49) a year of restoration was to be observed.  It was called the Year of Jubilee.   The Jubilee year isn't a 50th year, but it occurred every 50 years.  Its supposed to be an additional observance beginning at or near the beginning of the first year following that 49th shemitah year.  (49+1) Jubilee begins during the feast of Yom Kippur, which may or may not coincide with the end of the 49th year, the shemitah year.  At this point, mathematical calculations become muddy and everyone gets a headache. 

 

The Christian calendar, the Gregorian calendar, is based upon a solar year.   The Islamic calendar is a lunar calendar, based upon a lunar year or month.   But the Hebrews kept TWO calendars - one for each.   Exactly when one observes a feast or predicted event is nearly impossible if one uses a Gregorian calendar as a base for calculations.   Additionally, where the Gregorian year adds a day every 4 years to keep the track even, one of the Hebrew calendars adds approximately a week of days every year to do so.(2)  The rough calculation of events and observations seem to slide around the Gregorian calendar without any consistency.  It's a lot like trying to figure out when Easter will be observed.  It gives computers a headache too.  Unless one is an expert in Hebrew calendars and laws, one is liable to make grievous errors.

 

But here's the kicker......

 

Spiritual predictions of events, with regard to specific times and years, cannot be made with accuracy because the Jews lost track of the shemitah year observance.    Scholars simply don't know when it started or ended any more.   The clock was broken when Israel was dispersed following the death of Jesus on the cross.  No human knows.

 

Some people believe that the calendar of observances began again in 1917, but that is the subject of another post.   All I can say is that the speculation has merit.(3)

 

The non-Biblical references have their foundation not in Mosaic law but principally in the writings of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century.  Darby published his work which he called Dispensationalism in an attempt to clarify the events, times and places of prophetic and historic events of Palestine.  Unfortunately he pinned his calculations on the Gregorian calendar and went wrong from the beginning.   One thing stuck, however.   It was his use of the interpretation of prophetic weeks of years.   The caveat of course, was that he simply used groupings of seven years without any attempt to pin it to the shemitah year.   How could he since no one at that time knew when the spiritual calendar would resume?  Darby's work became immensely popular in America and many authors and pseudo-theologians based their work on his ramblings.   Hence we now have a mish-mash of theories regarding Daniel's weeks of years.

 

Unless the student of prophecy clearly understands that;

- prophecy pegged to a calendar is intended for the Hebrew calendars, not Gregorian or Muslim

- the progression of observances of shemitah years has been lost - we don't know when to begin the calculation of the weeks

- calculations of the Year of Jubilee do not coincide with the end of the previous shemitah year or the beginning of the next week of years

- prophecy is both figurative and literal

- John Nelson Darby's theories and conjecture was not Biblically based, but actually intended to transmit another agenda

- modern conjecture is base upon Darby's writings, not Hebrew scholarship

we can never get a truly precise picture of when prophetic events will occur.

 

We can, however, estimate the progression of events by examining trends - or what Jesus called seasons.

 

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

(1) The Bible clearly teaches there are three heavens.  St. Paul wrote about a revelation of the third heaven.  The Old and New Testaments give the pattern of each right down to measurements in standards the reader can understand.

 

(2) The calculation results in nearly an extra year to the sum of years every fifty years on the Gregorian calendar.   Hence the beginning of the Jubilee may or may not happen every 50th year of tracking the shemitah, but it can happen every 50 solar years.   Its' rather confusing and I'm sure I've missed a minor point along the way, but you get the general picture I hope.  And that, after all, is what I'm after.

 

(3) Each Jubilee year brings change for Israel and massive worldwide effect as well.....

Yom Kippur on the Gregorian calendar can fall in either September or October....

Note: that financial crashes usually happen in the fall as in October 1929 and in 2008.

 

1917 - the Balfour Declaration (Jubliee from 1917-1918)  Russian revolution in 1917 - the end of WWI in 1918.  Prophetic calendar restarts.

1917+50=1967 - liberation of Jerusalem 1967 (Jubilee from 1967-1968) 1968 global political & military changes (assassination of MLK, RFK and Tet in Viet Nam)

1967+50=2017 - ??? (Jubilee/Yom Kippur starts on Friday Sept. 29, 2017 and ends Saturday Sept. 30, 2018) Prophetic calendar continues with ?????

[WilliamL]

I am perplexed at how so many theologians have interpreted Daniel 9 and the seventy sevens to be interpreted as weeks of years

 

when the angels himself tells Daniel "understand the vision concerns the time of the end"

 

and "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath"

"because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end"

 

the vision is completely about the rise of the antichrist, the antichrist is completely at the end of time

 

the the kings of Media  and Persia and Greece are represented by the ram and the goat, but can human kings and princes hold angels hostage for 21 days...

You start out talking about the prophecy of Dan. 9, but then all your references are to Dan. 8. Two different prophecies, brother: if you want to talk about Dan. 9, quote it, not the previous chapter and previous vision.

[Kan]

I am perplexed at how so many theologians have interpreted Daniel 9 and the seventy sevens to be interpreted as weeks of years

 

when the angels himself tells Daniel "understand the vision concerns the time of the end"

 

and "I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath"

"because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end"

 

the vision is completely about the rise of the antichrist, the antichrist is completely at the end of time

 

the the kings of Media  and Persia and Greece are represented by the ram and the goat, but can human kings and princes hold angels hostage for 21 days

 

I think these kingdoms represented by the animals do infact represent what would happen on earth with the human kingdoms and its human empires but the scripture is more about whats going to happen in the heavenly realm and the change of power within the principalities and powers in the heavens

 

The term "time of the end" is not "the end of time." It sounds like it, but it isn't, and can be confusing.

 

The experience in Daniel 9 of the angel helping the prophet, was to explain the earlier vision of chapter 8. And the term "time of the end" is a specific phrase denoting "the time of the end" of the 2,300 days in the vision of chapter 8.

(There are 9 time spans in Daniel which all fit into the 2,300 days.

5 of them tie in the beginning of the 2,300 days, and 4 of them tie in the other end of the 2,300 days.

So the great vision which is "for many days" has a definite starting date and finishing date.)

 

It makes calculations and prophecies simple and compact, so that none need be confused, or have dozens of different prophecies that none know where they actually begin or end.

All of the prophecies with a specific time frame fit into the 2,300 days, which can be dated to exact times into the future from Daniel's time.

This is evident when Christ predicted the fall of Jerusalem to His disciples, quoting Daniel and saying let the reader understand.

 

Jesus also knew when He would die by these prophecies in Daniel.

 

The seventy years has nothing to do with chapter 8 and 9, except in symbol. Daniel thought that the vision of Chapter 8, had to do with the captivity and release of the Jews as predicted by Jeremiah. But it was to be "many days," "the vision is long" said the angel.

 

The vision of the 2,300 days would not start until the command to rebuild Jerusalem became effective, and that was some time after the 70 years of captivity were over.

[Kan]

Theologians apply the weeks as weeks of years because the term "day" or "days" and even "time" and "times" denote a year or multiple years when it comes to prophesy of visions. A week then becomes seven days or seven years in prophecy.

 

The idea of calling days - years is an old one which can be read in Genesis, where it says that the "days of Adam were 930 years."

And this principle applies especially and only to two books of the Bible - Daniel and Revelation, where the future is given by visions with symbols, for example the beasts, candles, colors, metals, stars etc.. But there are several other examples, say in Ezekiel in local prophecies for Israel, given by God, where one day represents one year.

 

The prophecies in Daniel and Revelation were designed for all the world to know, even beginning by a heathen King having the first dream.

 

The reason we can safely say this is because in Daniel, the Messiah is predicted and even His death. Now we can work backwards and calculate from the time Christ was crucified and arrive at the date that the temple was supposed to be restored after the captivity. That brings us back to the starting point of the 2,300 days, which span right over and past the time of Christ down to modern times.

[seandavids]

Theologians apply the weeks as weeks of years because the term "day" or "days" and even "time" and "times" denote a year or multiple years when it comes to prophesy of visions. A week then becomes seven days or seven years in prophecy.

 

The idea of calling days - years is an old one which can be read in Genesis, where it says that the "days of Adam were 930 years."

And this principle applies especially and only to two books of the Bible - Daniel and Revelation, where the future is given by visions with symbols, for example the beasts, candles, colors, metals, stars etc.. But there are several other examples, say in Ezekiel in local prophecies for Israel, given by God, where one day represents one year.

 

The prophecies in Daniel and Revelation were designed for all the world to know, even beginning by a heathen King having the first dream.

 

The reason we can safely say this is because in Daniel, the Messiah is predicted and even His death. Now we can work backwards and calculate from the time Christ was crucified and arrive at the date that the temple was supposed to be restored after the captivity. That brings us back to the starting point of the 2,300 days, which span right over and past the time of Christ down to modern times.

but wouldn't that depend fully on the interpretation of the vision being about Christ and not the antichrist, the angel came to Daniel to give him better understanding concerning the vision, would it not make sense to go back to the original vision and see if it was about Jesus coming or if it was concerning end of times and the coming of the antichrist

many people get hung up on terms such as anointed one when Cyrus is called God's anointed one in Isaiah 45 and he is a pagan king

terms as messiah could easily be used in the messiah that Israel accepts, which Christians would see as the false messiah

 

but to make any decision one way or the other one has to go back to the vision itself and study whether it was fully about the antichrist or the real Christ, as the interpretation contextually would need to be inline with the vision itself

[Salty]

When a formula like 'days for years' is given in Scripture for a certain event, that's when that formula is to be applied. If such formula is not... given in other Scripture that mentions 'days', then that formula is NOT... to be applied, lest one creates confusion against what God said in His Own Word.

 

In the Book of Daniel, the formula of 'sevens' is given ONLY for the specific prophecy about the 70 weeks (or 'sevens' if you prefer) in the Daniel 9 chapter. It is not to be applied to any other Scripture.

 

Thus the 2300 days of Dan.8 means... literally 2300 days, not years. And per the events given with it, we can know when that 2300 days period is to end (on the day of Christ's return).

 

Therefore, from the day of Christ's second coming, back 2300 days, is the time period it applies to, about the final one 'seven' of Dan.9:27, ("one week" per KJV translation).

 

The "one week" of Dan.9:27 is divided into 2 halves of 1260 days each. 2300 days from the end of the 2nd 1260 day period gets into the 1st 1260 day half, leaving 220 days:

 

[-----------------------------------------------"one week" or 7 years---------------------------------------------------]

[-------1260 days---------------------------------------][---------------1260 days-------------------------------------]

[--220 days ---][-----1040 days----------------------][---------------1260 days-------------------------------------]

......................][ -------------------------------------2300 days--------------------------------------------------------]