Sevenseas Posted February 21, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 21, 2015 It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus. Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? The Pharisees said "if we all could but live a day without sin, then the Messiah would come" In the mean time they created about a thousand laws from sneezing to breathing, so that no one even dreamed of perfection. I don't think Jesus would tell us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect, if it was a difficult thing like the Pharisees put out. Perfection has to be simple and attainable by faith. Trusting as a child does. That's OK isn't it? even to the newby. So, like, how perfect are you? I don't think you quite understand the biblical injunction to be perfect...cause none of us can be perfect in the current suit we wear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2015 It is dangerous to burden a new believer with the expectation that they be perfect. Well aged Christians can't even agree on what is sin. I dare not believe I am equal to Jesus. My righteousness is Jesus. We all come to Jesus as we are. Broken in humbleness. He puts us together. Changes us from the inside. Each is a work in progress for the rest of our lives. To tell someone they must be perfect is a burden nobody can fulfill but Jesus. Trust in Jesus. Do you think our idea of perfection is one that cannot be attained to? The Pharisees said "if we all could but live a day without sin, then the Messiah would come" In the mean time they created about a thousand laws from sneezing to breathing, so that no one even dreamed of perfection. I don't think Jesus would tell us to be perfect as His Father in heaven is perfect, if it was a difficult thing like the Pharisees put out. Perfection has to be simple and attainable by faith. Trusting as a child does. That's OK isn't it? even to the newby. So, like, how perfect are you? I don't think you quite understand the biblical injunction to be perfect...cause none of us can be perfect in the current suit we wear Well, that depends on what your idea of perfection is. If it is Christ's idea, we have no fear of His word "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." But if the idea is ours, then yes, no one can possibly be perfect. But then in hindsight you certainly would not want to be perfect as sinners imagine perfection to be. So up tight - yuk! I am pretty sure that day you were born was one of the most memorable, a tender new life, no education, no etiquette, no proper speech, possibly no manners!, but how can anybody not love that child with perfect love, and it does not even matter how much love it does not recognize it is getting either, because whatever response is there form the child is perfect. We can be perfect today, because God loves us perfectly, no matter how little we love back, if it is all we can love, it is so perfect in God's eyes. Am I perfect? In God's eyes I am. Can I see it? No, do I know what perfection is? No. Am I a sinner? Yes. Do I know how much I am loved? No. Am I sinning in ignorance? Probably. Do I sin? Yes. How can I be perfect then? I repent. Is a life of love and repentance perfection in God's eyes? Yes. Can He make me more perfect? Yes, He invented growth. Am I loved more for maturity? Absolutely not. How much does God love the worst sinner? Perfectly. Is it possible to live without sinning? Absolutely. Is that me? Absolutely not. Am I perfect through repentance? Yes. Does Jesus put a new life and spirit in me? Yes. Is it mine? No. Is it perfect? Yes. Can I depend on it? Yes. Can it prevent me from sinning? It will only do that. Do we need to be filled with this spirit? Yes. Will the saints - which is you all - be perfected before the return of Christ? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted February 24, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2015 Is it possible to live without sinning? Absolutely. Is that me? Absolutely not. It isn't possible to live without sin in these bodies. I don't know why you would state that; at least you recognize that is not you...not me either BTW I'm sorry Kan, but reading your responses (not just the one addressed to me) I find that you seem to vary your responses and are not consistent in what you state...maybe that is how I read them, but even in your response to me here, you seem to state one thing and then negate it with your next sentence...ie the quote above in which you state it IS possible to live without sinning but you admit you don't. Perfection in the sense it is being used in the op actually refers to completion...we are complete in Christ..His righteousness is our righteousness We really don't have to twist scripture into a pretzel to understand that Will the saints - which is you all - be perfected before the return of Christ? Yes. That is certainly not my understanding For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. I cor. 13:12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 25, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2015 My responses seem to vary because if I were perfect, I would not know it. So when you ask "are you perfect?" the answer is no, which seems to contradict what I am saying. Job said though "I were perfect my own mouth shall condemn me." Perfection is in God's eyes, it is His doing for the sinner, so why should the sinner weave his own filthy works into it? "The just shall live by faith" - and "if any man draw back" through unbelief in the works of God, God "will have no pleasure in them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmbld Posted February 25, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,491 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 1,457 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/23/2011 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/02/1971 Share Posted February 25, 2015 My responses seem to vary because if I were perfect, I would not know it. So when you ask "are you perfect?" the answer is no, which seems to contradict what I am saying. Job said though "I were perfect my own mouth shall condemn me." Perfection is in God's eyes, it is His doing for the sinner, so why should the sinner weave his own filthy works into it? "The just shall live by faith" - and "if any man draw back" through unbelief in the works of God, God "will have no pleasure in them." Seems like playing with words, or dancing with meanings of words, I think i understand what your getting at, but to me its simple, we are becoming more Christ-like in this life but will never reach perfection in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted February 25, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 25, 2015 My responses seem to vary because if I were perfect, I would not know it. So when you ask "are you perfect?" the answer is no, which seems to contradict what I am saying. Job said though "I were perfect my own mouth shall condemn me." Perfection is in God's eyes, it is His doing for the sinner, so why should the sinner weave his own filthy works into it? "The just shall live by faith" - and "if any man draw back" through unbelief in the works of God, God "will have no pleasure in them." Oh. And here I just thought you were waffling to try and have the right answer for everyone Sorry, your responses are not in keeping with the simplicity of the gospel...I can understand you may be attempting to better understand 'perfection' but since we can never attain that, we can only look at it through the definition of scripture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 26, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2015 Truth is always a paradox, it is simple and profound at the same time, hence the apparent confusion. I believe the OP was talking about the perfection of Christ in humanity, as an example for sinners to follow. I don't believe that some estimates on the words of Christ are an example of obedience and faith, because of the continuous need to claim moderate sinning as part of the Christian life. Going by the OP's other posts, it was clear that Christ is our example in every way, and only because He is the one who has intended to fulfill the command to be perfect. It is up to us to believe in his ability and work, instead of our progress based on acclimatizing to new forms of behavior. But if righteousness came by faith, then praise God for doing the impossible. I can understand the opposition to what Christ promises, seeing that the Christian walk is measured by general performance as compared to others, and the general evolution in goodness, as opposed to the naked gift of a new life by faith in Christ. But apparently this gift is only fit for those who mourn, are spiritually poor, are persecuted, etc. It does not work for people who have their own righteousness, their own proof of a new life, and who have made a loop hole in their theory by saying that sin will linger indefinitely. Even if that were true, we cannot afford to think of a future without complete victory. Paul said consider yourselves to be dead to sin. He did not say convince yourselves to sin less and less. So here is the paradox. The believer is awed by the contrast of his or her life and character, compared to the infinite compassion revealed in Christ's life. There is a feeling of disparity, yet great respect and admiration of the Lord. Such a heart is one that is perfect in the eyes of God and produces the works that He approves, yet it only knows how poor it is and how rich He is. It does not have a social scale to mark improvements. This common view cannot bring about the necessary changes which Christ named as perfect. So those who insist on a moderated life without the perfection of Christ transforming the soul, are actually depending on their own righteousness, because they believe in their abilities 'helped by God' and are convinced that they are doing fairly good, not ever perfect, which would account for their secret sins which they cannot let go. But sin must be overcome, for whatever is not overcome will overcome the sinner. And Christ is the only one to do it. Therefor we are dependent on His understanding of what perfection is, and His ability and promise to make that happen. Does Christ bring complete victory? Does He create or does He wait for evolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted February 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2015 Well, if one is going to view scripture as philosophy 101, I can understand the circling around the point and never quite arriving at the destination, which in this case is understanding what perfection means from a Christian perspective, and that, based on what the Bible says it is...rather than some circling of the campfire without ever getting close enough to warm one's hands. So here is the paradox. The believer is awed by the contrast of his or her life and character, compared to the infinite compassion revealed in Christ's life. There is a feeling of disparity, yet great respect and admiration of the Lord. Such a heart is one that is perfect in the eyes of God and produces the works that He approves, yet it only knows how poor it is and how rich He is. It does not have a social scale to mark improvements. This common view cannot bring about the necessary changes which Christ named as perfect. Sorry, but my first thought is 'oh baloney'. Shades of mysticism is what came to mind next. Would you happen to be able to source your quote? It is a quote after all The only heart that is perfect in the eyes of God is the one that has submitted itself to Christ and allowed for His perfection and God's grace as the only attainable perfection we have offered to us freely. No hoops to jump through, no coals of fire to walk on, and really, far far more then respect or admiration. The only works that God approves of, are the ones enacted through His Spirit in obedience to Him. The Bible says the heart is desperately wicked....and deceitful above all things and I would suggest that the actual author of the quote above, has perhaps reflected too long on his own state and too little on the state of his life hidden in Christ. So those who insist on a moderated life without the perfection of Christ transforming the soul, are actually depending on their own righteousness, because they believe in their abilities 'helped by God' and are convinced that they are doing fairly good, not ever perfect, which would account for their secret sins which they cannot let go. But sin must be overcome, for whatever is not overcome will overcome the sinner. And Christ is the only one to do it. Therefor we are dependent on His understanding of what perfection is, and His ability and promise to make that happen. Does Christ bring complete victory? Does He create or does He wait for evolution? Well, the perfection of Christ does not transform the soul. Our souls are never made perfect. Our life is hid with Christ in God. What that means, is that God does not see our sins... He sees the perfect sacrifice of His Son in our place...in other words, we are redeemed. Further, we are redeemed at the very moment of salvation. NOTHING we do makes us better in God's eyes then what we receive when we accept Christ, when we admit we are a sinner and that God's only Son died in our place. The rest, is, to put it colloquially, hogwash. I believe the OP was talking about the perfection of Christ in humanity, as an example for sinners to follow. It appears the op may have strayed from the truth and obtained a one way pass with a leave of absence granted by his strange doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted February 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,247 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2015 Col. 2:8-9 NKJV Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. FOR IN HIM DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Phil. 2:7-8 NKJV but made Himelf of no reputation, taking the FORM of a bondservant, and coming in the LIKENESS of men. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man-- Our Christ did not grasp or hang onto the reputation and Name that He held in the beginning, and He gave up being in the form and likeness of God the Father, but emptied Himself-- His full and complete Godhead--into the form of a man or the appearance of a man. This just says that He no longer looked like the Father in heaven but looked like a man. He took on the reputation of a man born out of wedlock (according to the rumors) who died among thieves on a cross. He was of no reputation. So while He took upon Himself a bad reputation and the limitations of a human body, all the fullnes of the Godhead dwelt in bodily form. He was fully God and fully man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kan Posted February 27, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,661 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 1,292 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2015 Well, the perfection of Christ does not transform the soul. Our souls are never made perfect. Most of what you have said agrees with scripture, and what I have posted, with the exception of the above. A transformation of the heart is what God requires as perfection. If the heart and soul is not transformed, then our worship is a lie. The philosophical and well meaning ideas of perfection that people have, religious or otherwise, are not on the same par as God's desires and requirements. Romans 12:2, "be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, acceptable and perfect will of God." If the heart is right then the works of Christ will follow - "If you love me," said Christ, "keep my commandments." The natural consequence of a transformed heart and mind, is obedience motivated from the renewed heart. To say that we will continue to sin, sounds like a humble thing to say, but it is actually a disbelief in Christ and a reliance on self. Christ does transform the soul, it is the ultimate goal of the gospel. If not, we might as well join a gym or an elocution class instead of bothering with a failing savior. "Our souls are never made perfect." So the soul just gets a makeover, like "a whited tomb stone full of dead men's bones," as Jesus said? "Make the tree good first and then it will bear good fruit" another quote from the Lord. Jesus makes the tree good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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