If salvation is the gift of God..

[Guest wilburnh]

I do believe in everlasting salvation and that no one can pluck us out of the Fathers' hand and that we are saved by Jesus Christ. I believe all these scriptures, however the scriptures that I've given and that I'll continue to give causes me to look at the eternal security scriptures anew and to re-evaluate exactly what is meant by eternal security and if He ever puts guidelines on what believing is and what constitutes faith. If one will peruse the scriptures for these markers, there are many to be found.

Something I was reading last night that stood out like it never has before is romans 3:21-31. Once again I have no Bible with me so please forgive my paraphrasing. It starts out talking about God put Jesus forth as a propitiation for the remission of sins that are past. Now some people have said that this is for those who have died before the covenant. I think they're probably right, while I don't see it explicitly laid out in the KJV, I think it may be a bit more definitive in the original; however, this is not what stood out. It then goes on to compare how the jews tried to reach righteousness and how the gentiles were going about it. Jews through righteousness through works and the gentiles through faith. It then goes on to say something like, "is the law then made to no effect? God forbid, but it is founded through faith." I know that's not exact so please read it should be verse thirty-one. My point is this, the jews tried to reach salvation/righteousness through their own merits, i.e. did works to be good according to the law. The gentils went about this a different way. They were able to reach righteousness through faith. The key is what constitutes faith or what makes faith alive. The answer is obviously works. So, their faith validated the law since their real faith naturally followed the law. Do you all see the implication of this? Your assumption of my doctrine is wrong, thus our misunderstanding. These gentiles did not try to have righteousness by doing good works, rather they had faith which naturally produced good works(followed the law). This is the condition that Jesus lays on salvation many times through the scriptures (salvation through faith).

Quoted by Mr&Mrs Mike Irish:

Those that stand before the white throne judgement will be those that are

unrightous and will have sentence passed over them at one time..... and the

punishment is the Lake of Fire.

A problem with this interpretation is that the Bible says that those whose names are not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. This means that it is possible for their names to be in the book of life as a result the can not all be unrighteous.

Thank you all for your patience in reading this.

Calvin

[Guest wilburnh]

Come on guys, don't let this die. I'm really enjoying hearing what you all have to say.

Calvin

[JLW001]

Well, I think the truth in the bible shows that God didn't just create men so that some could burn in hell, while his chosen ones were to live with Him.

God does talk of election in many places. The bible speaks of this in Romans 8:29-

29For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. 30And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory

So, God chose those who would be brothers and sisters to Jesus Christ. Now, what of those people whom God did not choose? Were they made to serve his purpose like Pharoh (Romans 9)? Some of them. Pharohs heart was hardened because it could be hardened.

What of the other people? The White Throne Judgement (WTJ) is for those whom God did not choose to be his children or for those that do not take part in the first resurrection. Does this mean its ok to forget Jesus and just live how you want to live? Heaven forbid! Happy are those that take part in the 1st resurrection. If you are not saved by Jesus in this life, then you will face a judgement on everything you did in this life. The bible does not tell us what the standard is or what is just good enough not to be cast into hell. But for those humans who are judged worthy to have their name in the book of life, the will live as humans with God Almighty and his Family.

Those of us who are saved by Jesus are brought into God's Family. Jesus is our elder brother and His Father is our Father. We will be made spirit and will understand all mysteries and we will be before our Father worshipping Him always. Have you been in the presence of God during the worship service at your Church? Imagine that presence multiplied tremendously. Who would choose to throw that away for having a chance (whatever that chance might be) to just be human again?

[Guest wilburnh]

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the

image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If this is to be interpreted that only the elected will be saved, we then move away from the scriptures that say that it is his will that none should perish but all come to everlasting life. These two scriptures, taken at your interpretation, seem to be in conflict with each other. Some other scriptures that this interpretation goes against, whomever calls on the name of Jesus shall be saved (obviously paraphrased).

What are your thoughts on the romans 3:21-31?

Thank you for you response.

Calvin

[irishcowboy]

I do believe in everlasting salvation and that no one can pluck us out of the Fathers' hand and that we are saved by Jesus Christ.  I believe all these scriptures, however the scriptures that I've given and that I'll continue to give causes me to look at the eternal security scriptures anew and to re-evaluate exactly what is meant by eternal security and if He ever puts guidelines on what believing is and what constitutes faith.  If one will peruse the scriptures for these markers, there are many to be found.

Something I was reading last night that stood out like it never has before is romans 3:21-31.  Once again I have no Bible with me so please forgive my paraphrasing.  It starts out talking about God put Jesus forth as a propitiation for the remission of sins that are past.  Now some people have said that this is for those who have died before the covenant.  I think they're probably right, while I don't see it explicitly laid out in the KJV, I think it may be a bit more definitive in the original; however, this is not what stood out.  It then goes on to compare how the jews tried to reach righteousness and how the gentiles were going about it.  Jews through righteousness through works and the gentiles through faith.  It then goes on to say something like, "is the law then made to no effect?  God forbid, but it is founded through faith."  I know that's not exact so please read it should be verse thirty-one.  My point is this, the jews tried to reach salvation/righteousness through their own merits, i.e. did works to be good according to the law.  The gentils went about this a different way.  They were able to reach righteousness through faith.  The key is what constitutes faith or what makes faith alive.  The answer is obviously works.  So, their faith validated the law since their real faith naturally followed the law.  Do you all see the implication of this?  Your assumption of my doctrine is wrong, thus our misunderstanding.  These gentiles did not try to have righteousness by doing good works, rather they had faith which naturally produced good works(followed the law).  This is the condition that Jesus lays on salvation many times through the scriptures (salvation through faith).

Quoted by Mr&Mrs Mike Irish:

  Those that stand before the white throne judgement will be those that are

  unrightous and will have sentence passed over them at one time..... and the

  punishment is the Lake of Fire.

A problem with this interpretation is that the Bible says that those whose names are not found in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.  This means that it is possible for their names to be in the book of life as a result the can not all be unrighteous.

Thank you all for your patience in reading this.

Calvin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SORRY, you are taking what I said out of shape, if you are not found in the Lambs Book of Life, you will be standing before the Great White Throne Judgement. only those found in the Lambs Book of Life will share in the rewards ( crowns).... only those found in the Book of LIfe will have everlasting life...

in Ephesians, it is said that we can not make it to heaven, we can not get to the Father, we can not do anything on our own.... it is only thru the Blood of the Lamb, it is by Grace alone that our faith stands, it is only by the Grace of God that we can stand with those and be counted as Rightous. if a person does not have Jesus as their Lord, then they will not be found in the Lambs Book of Life, and thus, they will be tossed into the eternal lake of fire.

mike

[Guest wilburnh]

I'm still getting from what you're saying that only those whose name is not found in the book of life will stand before the great white throne judgement. This I disagree with.

Second, what I said about romans 3:21-31 hasn't been fully understood. In that passage it plainly says that trying to get to heaven on one's own merits fails every time. However, when one has excepted christ, righteousness can then be obtained not by doing good works, but by having faith. Now, if one will do a study of the scriptures about faith and what faith comprises of, he/she will see that it works are the basis. Once again, I want to say that it is NOT works one does to follow the law to gain righteousness, but rather it is the works that naturally comes from faith. The difference between these two idealogies must be seen before the rest can be understood.

Calvin

[irishcowboy]

I'm still getting from what you're saying that only those whose name is not found in the book of life will stand before the great white throne judgement.  This I disagree with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why do you disagree?

if we make the first resurrection, then we have been found to be righteous thru the Blood of the Christ, and we will stand and be judged, but for what we have done with what we have been given, we do not have to stand further judgement on whether or not we will make Heaven.

those that are found righteous will see the first resurrection (rapture, where those that are dead in Christ shall rise and then those that are alive, living for Christ will follow ) and stand before the Judgement seat of the Lamb, those with their names in the Lambs Book of Life.

there is more to the entire set of events then one can post in these message boards. you may be a pre trib believer, or a mid trib or even a post trib, or a combination there of, and no matter what one might post, you may never come to agreement with them on the end times, for there is some that will never be known to us until it actually happens, as there was some that was shown and then it was told not to be written.

personnally, arguing the matter will not change a thing, but only build strife and cause division. I have studied the matter, have what I have, if you have studied or whether you have taken the information others have given you dont really matter.

some people will hear something a pastor tells them and will take it as total gosple and never check up on it, others will hear what a pastor tells them and verify every word of it.

mike

[JLW001]

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the

    image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

If this is to be interpreted that only the elected will be saved, we then move away from the scriptures that say that it is his will that none should perish but all come to everlasting life.  These two scriptures, taken at your interpretation, seem to be in conflict with each other.  Some other scriptures that this interpretation goes against, whomever calls on the name of Jesus shall be saved (obviously paraphrased).

What are your thoughts on the romans 3:21-31?

Thank you for you response.

Calvin

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must say that to understand God's call and why he doesn't call everyone we must read and understand the whole book of Roman's. First, we know that the Bible never contradicts itself. If a contradictions seems to occur then we are lacking in understanding. Especially focus on Romans 8 through 11.

There are some very straightforward remarks. For example in Romans 11 we find Paul speaking of the Jews,

5It is the same today, for not all the Jews have turned away from God. A few are being saved as a result of God

[Guest wilburnh]

The reason why I disagree with you mike is that in the passage being talked about, it clearly allows for some who stand before the great white throne judgement to have their names in the book of life. If this is the case, then they can not all be unrighteous. This is about as straightforward as I can make it.

Calvin

[Deez131]

JLW001,Feb 3 2005, 08:39 PM]

Well, I think the truth in the bible shows that God didn't just create men so that some could burn in hell, while his chosen ones were to live with Him.

JLW001,

I think I understand where you're coming from on most of your posts, but you're arguing against your beliefs in the above statement. Or at least, what I'm thinking you're trying to express in your posts. Romans 9:21-22: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessell for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

God does talk of election in many places.  The bible speaks of this in Romans 8:29-

29For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. 30And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And he gave them right standing with himself, and he promised them his glory

Just out of curiousity, what version of the Bible are you using? I'm seriously not being a smart aleck. I just want to know.

So, God chose those who would be brothers and sisters to Jesus Christ.  Now, what of those people whom God did not choose?  Were they made to serve his purpose like Pharoh (Romans 9)?  Some of them.  Pharohs heart was hardened because it could be hardened. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Careful here. Pharaoh's heart wasn't actively hardened by God. He didn't need to. All God had to do was leave Pharaoh alone. A heart can pursue a sin-nature on it's own without any help whatsoever.