If salvation is the gift of God..

[JLW001]

Well, I think the truth in the bible shows that God didn't just create men so that some could burn in hell, while his chosen ones were to live with Him.

JLW001,

I think I understand where you're coming from on most of your posts, but you're arguing against your beliefs in the above statement. Or at least, what I'm thinking you're trying to express in your posts. Romans 9:21-22: Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

You're right. I was wrong in that sentence.

What I intended to say was that even though some are not called to be brothers and sisters of Christ, there will be some who are found worthy of everlasting life as human beings, not as spirit beings. There ARE some "vessels" who are made to burn (destroy) or made in order to bring about the completion of God's plan through their disobedience to God's will. This is clearly bore out in Romans 9 as you quoted.

Just out of curiousity, what version of the Bible are you using? I'm seriously not being a smart aleck. I just want to know.

I believe these verses are from the NLT(New Living Translation).

Careful here. Pharaoh's heart wasn't actively hardened by God. He didn't need to. All God had to do was leave Pharaoh alone. A heart can pursue a sin-nature on it's own without any help whatsoever.

I think the scripture does bear out that God did indeed "harden" Pharoah's heart. And, of course Pharoah's heart was hardened because it could be.

14What can we say? Was God being unfair? Of course not! 15For God said to Moses,

[Guest wilburnh]

JLW001 could you please respond to the first post on page three concerning romans 3:21-31? I would like to see what an osas individual, specifically you since you seem versed in the Bible, has to say about it. If you already have, I apologize and please direct me to that site.

I still question your belief that only those who belong to the elect shall be saved. I think to say that only these shall be saved is going directly against the scripture that says it is God's will that none should perish but that all should have everlasting life. I wouldn't have so much of a problem with believing that the elect are individuals used in crucial events throughout history who are required to do the Lord's work. Now if this were the case, I believe it would make much sense. I would be able to see this fit more scriptures than only those referring directly to the elect. It also goes along with pharoah and the hardening of his heart. At certain times, God chooses to show his power and at those times, there are key people who he needs to do certain things. Just let me know what you think and if you have any more clarification/justification for your beilefs regarding the elect.

Calvin

[JLW001]

JLW001 could you please respond to the first post on page three concerning romans 3:21-31?  I would like to see what an osas individual, specifically you since you seem versed in the Bible, has to say about it.  If you already have, I apologize and please direct me to that site.

I still question your belief that only those who belong to the elect shall be saved.  I think to say that only these shall be saved is going directly against the scripture that says it is God's will that none should perish but that all should have everlasting life.  I wouldn't have so much of a problem with believing that the elect are individuals used in crucial events throughout history who are required to do the Lord's work.  Now if this were the case, I believe it would make much sense.  I would be able to see this fit more scriptures than only those referring directly to the elect.  It also goes along with pharoah and the hardening of his heart.  At certain times, God chooses to show his power and at those times, there are key people who he needs to do certain things.  Just let me know what you think and if you have any more clarification/justification for your beilefs regarding the elect.

Calvin

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Will do, wilburnh. I apologize for the delay.

[Guest truebeliever7]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums and I hope to have productive discussions with many of you.

As I was looking through the topics and forums I saw that some have taken a stand against the "once save always saved" doctrine. First I would like to say that I also did not believe this, but God has revealed to me the truth of His salvation and I thought that I would share some of it with you.[\Quote]

If you are right about once saved always saved then what is Judgment day all about. There seems to be an opportunity to be sent to hell at that point.

Rev 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.

14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

(NKJ)

May God Bless you

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The passage you quote is about the Great White Throne Judgement. That judgement is what people who have not been saved by Christ will face. That comes well after Christ's return to earth (which is when the 1st resurrection or the resurrection of those who were saved and died) and after themillenniumm of Reign by Jesus Christ on earth. See my reply a couple posts up to get a better explanation.

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JLWOO1;

I guess even if you think you are saved if you don't endure to the end you wont be saved.

Matt 24:13

13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

(NKJ)

[Guest wilburnh]

Now I feel like I was being rude. I apologize if that's the way it was taken. I'm just anxious to see what you write lol.

calvin

[Guest wilburnh]

I think that the only scripture that I mentioned was the romans 3:21-31 passage. The other passage that deals with the salvation through one's own merits or through faith is romans 9:30-33.

This seems to be telling me that the Israelites were going after salvation through the merits of works (like on previous post, "I can do this myself by being good") however the Gentiles have: "attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith". If one looks in the Bible where it talks about an individuals' faith, they will see that faith if it is without works is dead. This, once again, DOES NOT mean that we attain righteousness by doing good things, but rather our faith manifests itself by our acts being in his will. Something else that's interesting is that in romans 14:23 says that, "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". You have to read the whole passage to get context, but the basic truth is there to be easily grasped(also see james 1:14-16 talks about how sin develops).

I didn't plan on this being so long. I originally intended to just mention the other scripture, but when I get on this subject, I just seem to ramble. Anyway, looking forward to reading some replies soon. Take care all

Calvin

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Regarding Romans 3:21-31 I've taken the liberty of paraphrasing the scripture in modern english to try and help us to understand it a little better. underneath I have included the original text (ESV) with my verse-for verse paraphrasing so that people can judge for themselves whether my interpretation bares faithful resemblance to the text.

Righteousness is no longer attained by a show of faith through adhering to the law, but by something other than the law.  This righteousness is through faith in Jesus Christ, and in him there is no distinction between jew and gentile, there are only "believers".

For everyone (both Jew and Gentile) has sinned and fallen short of God's glory and are justified by the gift of redemtion in Christ Jesus, whom God has provided as payment by his blood to be accepted by faith.  This was to show Gods kindness because in his kindness he had previously passed over sins (by atonement through law) which was a foretelling of the redemption to come, so that we might see God's righetousness by justifying us through faith in Jesus.

So, why should we boast? We have no cause to boast because we are not justified by a law of works but a law of faith, for we maintain that one is justified by faith which is not defined by adhering to a law of works.  Or is God only for the Jews? Is he not also the God of the Gentiles? Indeed he is.

Since God is one (unity) he will justify both those who are "circumsised by faith" (Jews) AND the "uncircumcised" (gentiles) THROUGH faith.

Should we then discard the law of works because of redemtion through faith? By no means, we uphold these laws.

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Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NO LONGER ATTAINED BY A SHOW OF FAITH THROUGH ADHERING TO THE LAW, BUT BY SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE LAW

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, AND IN HIM THERE IS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEW AND GENTILE, THERE ARE ONLY "BELIEVERS"

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

FOR EVERYONE (BOTH JEW AND GENTILE) HAS SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF GOD'S GLORY

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

AND ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE GIFT OF REDEMPTION IN CHRIST JESUS

Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

WHOM GOD PROVIDED AS PAYMENT BY HIS BLOOD TO BE ACCEPTED BY FAITH. THIS WAS TO SHOW GODS RIGHTEOUSNESS BECAUSE IN HIS KINDNESS HE HAD PREVIOUSLY PASSED OVER SINS (by atonement through law)

Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

WHICH WAS A FORETELLING OF THE REDEMPTION TO COME SO THAT WE MIGHT SEE GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS BY JUSTIFYING US THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS

Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

SO WHY SHOULD WE BOAST? WE HAVE NO CAUSE TO BOAST BECAUSE WE ARE NOT JUSTIFIED BY A LAW OF WORKS, BUT A LAW OF FAITH

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

FOR WE MAINTAIN THAT ONE IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH WHICH IS NOT DEFINED BY ADHERING TO THE LAW OF WORKS

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

OR IS GOD ONLY FOR JEWS? IS HE NOT ALSO THE GOD OF THE GENTILES? INDEED HE IS

Rom 3:30 since God is one. He will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

SINCE GOD IS ONE (UNITY) HE WILL JUSTIFY BOTH THOSE WHO ARE "CIRCUMCISED BY FAITH" (JEWS) AND THE "UNCIRCUMCISED" (GENTILES) THROUGH FAITH

Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

SHOULD WE THEN DISCARD THE LAW OF WORKS BECAUSE OF REDEMPTION THROUGH FAITH? BY NO MEANS, WE UPHOLD THESE LAWS.

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What this passage says to me is simply that redemption and salvation through Christ is for both Jew and Gentile and that one who has faith in Christ Jesus should also uphold the law (that is to behave righteously as the law defines as well as being righteous through faith in Christ)

I'm particularly struck by the language of this verse. Note the tense:

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

By the redemtion that is in Christ we ARE justified. not that we will be. By accepting the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ we ARE justified.

[Guest wilburnh]

Exactly, we are justified and washed anew. After this initial cleansing we enter the 'interpretation' areas.

This is what I get from these scriptures. We are judged according to our faith. This is a generic term to most people so what do we mean? Do we mean the kind of faith that is associated with wanting a new car? No, I'm talking about the faith that is evidenced by works. Once again, my other posts make clear that this is not the works of the jews. The jews sought works on their own merits to earn salvation. This is an obvious no-no. However, if one lets the Holy Spirit work through his or her life, good works are a result which has resulted from the faith of the holder. So I guess to better understand this passage, the word faith must be understood.

Also, the last verse catches my attention. If one looks at the whole book, it seems like the law keeps getting demeaned and made of no consequence. This would obviously be a huge problem to a religion that supposedly promotes good behavior. This view is nicly quelled with comments like the one in verse thirty-one. He says, "Do we then make voide the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." This seems to be addressing those who would take this passage as a license to ignore the law. He specifically says that this is not the case. That the law is still important to be followed, but not to be followed to get ones' salvation, but rather to please God and to allow ones' faith to grow.

I am running short on time so I'll have to wait to make any further comments when other replies are made.

Calvin

[Arthur Durnan]

If one can be "re-lost" after being saved, then pray tell, what was he saved from in the first place? He WASN'T!

http://arthurdurnan.freeyellow.com

[Trinity]

Matthew 7:22-23

Many will say to me on that day,