If salvation is the gift of God..

[Guest wilburnh]

Come now arthur, I can argue this one (and you could've too) without thinking twice. Straw men are not what any of us needs.

When you are saved, you are saved from hell. If you lose faith, you are no longer saved. Were you still saved to begin with? Of course! If the individual were to die at that moment of salvation, hell would have been averted. However, he was given more time to make more decisions and as a result, killed his faith.

Trinity, the scripture in mathew seven does not apply to all people who are not christian. Do all sinners cast out demons? This passage can be attributed to those who had lived a good life, had gifts from the father, but never had a relationship with God the Father.... plain and simple.

[JLW001]

I believe that the Matt7 verse is indeed speaking of Christians who thought they had done every thing right...they had done all these good works...but their faith was in the good works and not in the blood of Jesus Christ.

Now Roms 3:21-31...

First let's back up a step a listen to Paul tell us about the law...

19Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses and to bring the entire world into judgment before God. 20For no one can ever be made right in God

[JLW001]

When you are saved, you are saved from hell. If you lose faith, you are no longer saved. Were you still saved to begin with? Of course! If the individual were to die at that moment of salvation, hell would have been averted. However, he was given more time to make more decisions and as a result, killed his faith

So, if we make bad decisions we can lose our salvation? How many bad decisions does it take? Does this not imply that you can retain your salvation by making good decisions? So, the individual plays a much larger role in their salvation than Jesus?

Let's follow this thinking for a moment. We are saved by Jesus. All agree upon this. Now, after we are saved, keeping that salvation is dependent on imperfect humans. How many of us would truly be saved if it had to do with something we do or did? Jesus Christ is on the right hand of God the Father, yet his salvation for us is dependent on what we do to maintain it? I submit to you that the Son of the Most High God does no imperfect work. If we are saved by our Lord then we are saved! The good works or good decisions come as an effect of our salvation, not as a necessary part of salvation. Will we stumble? Yes. Will we make bad decisions? Yes. Then how many bad decisions does it take to undo the Work of Jesus Christ?

There is one and only one way of losing your salvation. If you turn and defiantly blaspheme (sp?) against the holy spirit, that spirit that was in you as a seal and a down payment of your inheritance to come, then yes you will lose your salvation. Paul writes about this and in Acts the story of Ananias and Saphira show this point very well.

[Guest wilburnh]

JLW001, I think a big problem we have is your misunderstanding of what my beliefs are. In your last post you talk about initial salvation with regards to works. I do not believe that works can save you. I have said that many times and will probably have to continue to say this. What I do believe is that God can and has put limitations on how far a christian can continue in sin before he is cut off. I'm not going to name the scriptures because they have been named so many times before this. So you misunderstand me, or try to set me up falsely, when you equate works with initial salvation.

You are right (anytime I say this, I'm obviously saying this according to my beliefs) in believing that works are a result of faith. We both agree that these works are not required to keep salvation. Where we differ, is that I believe these works are an indication of the man within. The Holy Spirit is there to guide us and to strengthen us, however we still have the choices to make. If we refuse to listen to His guidance, then we can make a lifestyle of bad/no works which leads to dead faith and to hebrews six.

People get to asking when this point is which is frustrating to me. For one, there are scriptures that say work out your salvation with fear and trembling or basically it's between you and God. It is put up to the brothers in Christ to admonish those they see falter. The long answer to the question is: if one makes a lifestyle of living for the flesh which as a result causes a loss of faith in Christ - this person has crossed that line. However this can only be judged by Christ.

I'm glad that you brought up the blaspheming point. I was going to wait until it was brought up before I talked about it. If what you say is right, and Christ makes nothing that fails then how do you explain blaspheming of the Holy Spirit? If salvation is entirely separate from the condition of our hearts, then how blashpeming explained?

Calvin

[JLW001]

Calvin, I understand what you are saying...How can blaspheming the holy spirit cause one to lose their salvation if it isn't theirs to lose? I don't know the answer to that. I only know what Jesus says twice in the book of John. But, we do know that there is only one unforgivable sin. Right. So, perhaps that's where God draws his line in the sand for the believer's wanderings. After all, if there is only one unforgiveable sin, then that means all the others are forgiveable. What Paul says about the unforgiveable sin is that they are crucifying Christ again as they do this. Certainly God the Father draws the line there!

Now let's look at a couple of groups of scripture that I believe are quite straight forward. I have included the text and made bold the points I want to highlight.

John 6:

35Jesus replied,

[Guest wilburnh]

My point with the unforgivable is that on an eternal securitist's standpoint, it is impossible to lose salvation; however we see it happening with this with no opportunity to gain it back. The reason is that this is only said by someone who has utterly lost faith. Now, there are other sins that can be committed that show this utter lack of faith. While these can be forgiven, the only will be if the person averts his lifestyle which is required to gain is faith (hebrews 6).

35Jesus replied,

[JLW001]

OK, let me see if I understand you. You are agreeing that there is election, that God chooses some pots for this and some for that. But, you are giving man the ability to turn away from God once God has picked him. Is that correct?

If it is correct, then you are saying that God will pick someone whom he might lose to the devil so to speak. You are saying that those that God chooses for demonstrating his glory, such as Pharoah, have the choice to reject that road and turn to God. You are saying that one he selects to be his child has the ability to reject him and then be lost.

I believe that this way of thinking gives an incredible amount of power to man while taking away God's power to bring about his plan. You said,

We have no fear that Jesus is going to be negligent or that some other power is more powerful and can take us over His will. The word lose is used here. I can lose my keys because I forgot where I put them; however in light of other scriptures, this does not need to be taken to mean that if we choose to leave, that he loses us. He knows where we are, we are serving satan.

I would say that this is warping what Jesus said. When Jesus says that I will not lose one or that no one can pluck them from my hands, he is saying that the Father has given these to me, and not one of them will be LOST to eternal damnation. It would be non-sensical for Jesus to say, "The Father has given these to me and I won't lose anyone of them. I'll know right where they are no matter if they're with me or the devil." Of course, Jesus knows where they are. God is omnipotent and omnipresent. Why would he say that there is a particular group of people who I will keep track of, but these other people I don't know where they are.

The only interpretation is that God has selected certain beings to be his children. Now, as is shown in the end of the book of Revelation, they're will be some humans that are cast into the lake of fire and some that are not. This is independent of the group of beings He has chosen for His children. I think you and I have discussed this and you have seen my point.

God has knowledge of all. That means he knows what you and I will do for all of our lives. He even says that he knew us, the elect, before the foundation of the world. So, the ones that he chose will NOT reject Him. He already knows what they will do. He knew that you and I, and others, would be having this discussion. Does this mean that we don't make the decisions? No. We certainly do make the decisions, it's just that God already knows all the decisions we have and will make. He knew that Ananias and Saphira would make those decisions. He knew that it would be recorded in the book of Acts and it was necessary for us to read to influence the decisions we made or will make.

When you look deeply at God he is always beyond our grasp. He is always undound by any human limitation. If Jesus says I will not lose one, then he won't. It is necessary for us to read, meditate and study His Word. That's why Paul said to work out our salvations in fear and trembling. We must make the effort and the decision to follow God. It's just that, if we are one of his elect, he already knew that we would not reject Him when He selected us.

What an awe inspiring and humbling thing it is to know that God is in ABSOLUTE control. What we see as our freewill and our own choices, God already knows what we will do. We must study and learn what it means to be a child of God. I won't to know for certain that I am a child of God and His holy spirit is the stamp upon me which labels me as Hid own. That is the seal that distinguishes us from those that will take or have taken the mark of the beast. Others may see the ffruits of the spirit in my daily life, but they will not know for certain as to whether I am a child of God or not. Because no man can know the heart of another the way that God does. However, it is not our responsiblility to know these things about others, because we must work out our own salvation in fear and trembling before the Most High God of Heaven. Its just that he already knows that his elect have not and will not reject Him. Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound...Glory to God the Most High!

Edited March 10, 2005 by JLW001

[Guest wilburnh]

Maybe I explained a little bad let me do better here. I believe that the scripture, "no man may pluck them out of my hand" is giving the believer security that nothing, no thing, is greater than God and that we can have faith that he will deliver us from the trappings of sin. I do not believe that once we are saved that we lose the free will to do what we want, even if that is ignoring the prodding of the Holy Spirit. I also believe that once we do this and turn our hearts away from God that we fall under hebrews 6.

There was a sermon given at our church by a chaplain who believes in OSAS. He addressed the election so these are his thoughts not mine. So far, I think they're sound but I'm still looking at them. He said that every time that the elect is mentioned, they are elected to something. He said that that is to believe. Now, I don't know how this is going to play out. I'm going to start trying to find all the scriptures that talk about the elect and see if he is right. He started this particular part of the sermon by talking about how people think that they're special because they were chosen before they were born. I also think that this could lead to a high and mighty look at others. I do not think it has to but that it can, so I'm leary to jump right in with this belief without fully researching it.

About God foreknowing us and know what all we do. I'm agree that God knows us before we were born, I don't think this in and of itself means that he knows what all we do. I think this comes under his other divine attributes. On that thought, I know that God limits himself to what he knows and will do, we can tie his hands so to speak. Now, on that note lol, I wonder if God has limited himself to know exactly what choices we will make. I would concede that He knows all possible avenues we can take, but does He let himself know which ones we will choose? If you all have an answer to this with scripture please let me know.

So, as you can hopefully gather from my post, I'm in the middle of reading on the election. It's one of the biggest hang-ups I have with my belief. I think it can be reconciled, and indeed I believe it must according to the other scriptures, but as of yet I don't have the details. Jury is still out I guess. Until then I'll continue to try to get in here regularly to post any new thoughts and read yours.

God bless

Calvin

[Trinity]

I think the Un-forgivable sin is Rejecting Jesus...

[JLW001]

Trinity, there are many people right now who are currently rejecting Jesus and will one day be called and accept Jesus. I'm not sure how you think that rejecting Him is the unforgiveable sin. However, if you mean that me as a believer, saying that I reject Jesus as my savior, then I can see your point. If a believer rejects Jesus, then returns to Jesus as their savior, then they would be re-crucifying Him.

Calvin, I think they key you must understand is that God is outside of time. God the Father new that Jesus would die for us "...from the foundations of the world". So, God does know every decision that everyone, who has or ever will live, will make. He is omnipotent. There is no limit to His power.

Jesus said that whoever believes upon Him HAS eternal life. God sees use as we will be, not as we are. Jesus died for all of our sins and for the sins of those not yet born. God knows exactly when you and I will blow it next and sin. We are not sinners, because we are covered by the blood of Christ, but we do still sin. Yet, we are robed in white before our God because of Jesus' blood. Praise be to God Almighty.

Be sure not to limit God by anything. There is no such thing as freewil in the manner that we think of it. Romans 8,9,10 reveal that very clearly. If there was freewill don't you think that Pharoah would have let Israel go and turned to God? All of those tremendous signs and wonders...it seems to most any reasonable person that those signs would have caused some change in his state of mind. But...it was to be accomplished as was recorded so that God's Glory could be revealed...to the world, to the children of Israel, to their descendants, and to us. Where was Pharoah's freewill?

Edited March 18, 2005 by JLW001