Marilyn C Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,225 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,512 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi Shiloh, As I said before I am so amazed to hear someone else understand & expose this wrong teaching that has just been based on assumptions, parables & emotive feelings. Although I was never taught this false (to my understanding) teaching, I can sympathise with people, especially women who hold dearly to it. I do apologise to those whom I may have offended, though not intentionally, by this subject. Have you been taught this truth or did you look into it yourself, Shiloh? Just very interested. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 Ezra you are trying force an interpretation on to Gal. 6:16 that simply isn't there. The Israel of God is not a reference to the church. It is mentioned as a separate entity from, " those who walk according to this rule." He refers to 'those who walk according to this rule' AND Israel of God. Those are two different group, not one and the same. If he said, "those who walk according to this rule, who are the Israel of God," you would have a case. But you make a lot of fluffy theological rhetoric that doesn't really speak to who the Israel of God is. The Israel of God are Christian Jews and Paul makes that distinction namely because He is drawing line of demarcation between the Judaizers and Jews who are believers by faith, and are the "Israel of God." They are true Israel cf. Rom. 9:6 Hi Shiloh, I know that this reply was for Ezra concerning the scripture that is in Galatians 6:16 which within it's context says... Galatians 6:11-18 - Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand...As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised: only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ...For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh...But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world...For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature...(16) And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God...From henceforth let no man trouble me; for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus...Brethren, the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. In my understanding of what you have said concerning this scripture is that there are two seperate entities being mentioned in this verse # 1) The Church and # 2) The Israel of God. I would like for you if you would to please give me your personal difinitions in your use of the words two "groups" and two "entities" for clarification on my part in regards to your seperation of the two. What is it that seperates the two? It also mentions within the verse "And as many as walk according to this rule". Can you tell me what that "rule" is that Apostle Paul is speaking of ? Do you personally even know what that "rule" is ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,225 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,512 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It is a good day when one can agree with Shiloh and Marilyn.... Hi other one, So true, so true. And not just separately but together. Well...it must be a sign!!!!!!! Blessings, Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi Marilyn, I am a dispensationalist and as such, I see Israel and the Church as radically separate. Israel is Israel and the Church is the Church and proper interpretation of Scripture depends in part, on keeping them separate. I have been taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ, but I could not find one place in Scripture where it is actually stated as such. All of the other relational models between the Church and Jesus are stated explicitly, but there is no explicit statement naming the Church as Christ's bride and it makes sense because the only nation on earth that God ever made covenant with is Israel. The New Covenant between is between God and the houses of Israel and Judah. When Paul used bride imagery, it was with individual congregations and in that imagery, he was not saying they were brides, but rather, he was referencing their purity and holiness like that of a virgin bride on her wedding day. Paul was drawing from the image of the bride to make a point about the kind of purity he wanted to see in his readers. The same is true in Eph. 5 when Paul describes how a man is to love his wife. He is love her sacrificially. He is to be constrained to love his wife with the same sacrificial love that drove Jesus to the cross. Paul isn't talking necessarily about marital love. He is talking about being an imitator of God (Eph. 5:1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 26, 2015 Nowhere does the "Bride" notion indicate a mystery It is never associated with "mystery" in the New Testament.Ephesians 5:32 - This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes, but it is talking about the mystery of the Church. The Church is the mystery because the Church is not prophesied in the Old Testament. OT prophecy completely skipped over the Church age. That's why it is mystery that only came as a revelation to the Apostles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted March 26, 2015 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,225 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,512 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hi Shiloh, You have certainly been given a great gift of discernment & teaching bro. It seems we are of the same understanding. And we may have very interesting conversations in future regarding the eternal purposes of God in Christ Jesus, since we have the same basis - Body of Christ, Israel & the nations. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saved34 Posted March 28, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,185 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 667 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/28/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/19/1971 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Wow, I never really questioned the doctrine of the Church as the Bride of Christ until now. I do know of some women who will say things like, 'I don't need a husband because Christ is my husband'. I also have always rejected replacement Theology because scripture is clear that God has not given up on Israel. Shiloh and Marilyn has me really rethinking this now, but what I'm wondering is, if this is kind of straining at a gnat? Scripture is clear that Christ cares for the Church as if it were his Bride. We have so many roles and titles in Christ, that saying the Church(collectively) is the bride, may not be so unscriptural. We are called "his body". we are one Spirit with Christ, we are Ambassadors for Christ. Saying we are the bride is just another of the Churches functioning roles. She is submissive to him as a woman should be to her husband, He is the provider to the Church as a husband should be to his wife, He loved the Church and gave everything for it. Maybe the fact that so many twist scripture and create sensual, and sexual imagery of Marriage, that many Christians reject what seems to be a biblical teaching of the Church being the bride. I don't think we(the Church) are literally a wife to Christ, but in functionality, the relationship of Christ and his Church is the symbol that marriage should be patterned by. I believe Paul may have just used the opportunity of the great mystery of Christ and his Church to bring truth down from it's heavenly heights to the grassroots, and teach on the practicality of earthly marriage and what it should look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 It's not straining at a gnat. We are talking about how we as the Church should relate to Christ. It is important for us to understand our relationship. Marriage is not a church model in terms of our relationship to God. I don't reject the bride model on the grounds that some have sexualized it. I reject it on the grounds that the Bible simply doesn't say it. The Bible uses Israelite imagery with respect to the Church, but the Church is not Israel. It's important to look behind the imagery to see the principles in play. We are joint-heirs with him, his body, his congregation, his disciples, his priests, his friends, and his servants, but we are never called his "bride." He is our Lord, and our Savior, but he is ever called our groom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 28, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.78 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 28, 2015 I always think you do a wonderful job of teaching shiloh and you are doing a great job here but I do think Ephesians 5:23 is clearly equated with the body of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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