Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

[Guest shiloh357]

Jim, it has to do with context.   Greek and Hebrew are highly nuanced languages and as such, English doesn't reflect those nuances  of  meaning.   That's why context is so important.   I am not correcting the Bible.   

 

The problem with the Word of Faith teaching is that it relies on the KJV (when it suits a particular doctrine).  The KJV doesn't always communicate the shades of meaning and the precision of Hebrew in this case.   

 

In Hebrew, words play double duty, triple duty, quadruple duty...    One word in Hebrew can be translated multiple ways in English depending on the immediate context.  

 

Not only that, but the theological implications of Jesus suffering in Hell for our sins means that Jesus became a sinner on the cross, which He didn't.   It means that when Jesus was on the cross, He wasn't God.    Doesn't that bother you?   Do not see unsound that is?

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

Jim, it has to do with context. Greek and Hebrew are highly nuanced languages and as such, English doesn't reflect those nuances of meaning. That's why context is so important. I am not correcting the Bible.

The problem with the Word of Faith teaching is that it relies on the KJV (when it suits a particular doctrine). The KJV doesn't always communicate the shades of meaning and the precision of Hebrew in this case.

In Hebrew, words play double duty, triple duty, quadruple duty... One word in Hebrew can be translated multiple ways in English depending on the immediate context.

Not only that, but the theological implications of Jesus suffering in Hell for our sins means that Jesus became a sinner on the cross, which He didn't. It means that when Jesus was on the cross, He wasn't God. Doesn't that bother you? Do not see unsound that is?

Jesus never became a sinner and this is not what any one says. What is said is that Jesus took on ALL SIN PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. Have you not read He who knew no sin became our sin ? No see here is why it does not bother me. The word of God tells it a little different then how you see it. See I already know this about you. You feel Jesus never was separated from the Father meaning He never gave up His spirit.

Now that can not be for God can hold no sin HOWEVER my brother, Jesus took on all sin. He did this as a man and not God. This is what troubled Jesus those times He spoke how He was troubled or His spirit was troubled.. BROTHER SHILOH I MEAN NO DISRESPECT AT ALL so please do not take it this way but I simply refuse to see it your way. I know this sounds harsh but If the Holy Spirit shows me something different then I follow but man, there is no way in this life will I follow a man for what he believes with out the Holy Spirit first directing me. So with that said may we continue on with this conversation here or should we start another thread for respect of the OP ?

Brother Shiloh I would enjoy very much to keep this going and who knows, perhaps I will be shown I am wrong and I will be repenting. Blessings and LOVE my Brother Shiloh

Jim

Edited April 25, 2015 by Fish Catcher Jim

[Guest shiloh357]

Actually, they DO  teach that Jesus became a sinner.   I debated that all of the time with Rhema an ORU students.  They did not claim that Jesus merely took all of our sin.  They teach that Jesus literally became sinful because of our sin.  That he was a sinner on the cross, and that he ceased to be God.   

 

I don't believe Jesus died spiritually.   He never ceased being God.  Jesus bore our sins in His flesh, his physical body (II Pet. 2:24).   He did not bear them in His Spirit meaning that Jesus never became sinful and was still able to be God while on the cross.  

 

 

I have started another thread on this.  It is an interesting discussion.

[Guest Fish Catcher Jim]

the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.

Hermeneutics /hɛrməˈnjuːtɪks/ is the theory of text interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts.

Interpretation of the Bible

Hermeneutics is the science of interpreting what an author has written. In Christian theology, hermeneutics focuses specifically on constructing and discovering the appropriate rules for interpreting the Bible. These methods and principles, however, are often drawn from outside of scripture in historical, literary or other fields. It inevitably involvesexegesis, which is the act of interpreting or explaining the meaning of scripture. The goal in applying the principles of hermeneutics is to "rightly handle the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15), striving to accurately discern the meaning of the text.

This to me is a false way to study the written word of God.

[Guest shiloh357]

Well of course you don't like it.   You can't  actually study the texts in context and by means of the object the author has in view AND walk away with the twisted notion that Jesus was not God, that Jesus paid for our sins in Hell and that Jesus had to be born again.    Any intelligent approach to the Bible won't generate those kinds errant and unbiblical teachings.

 

 

Reminds of when the false prophet Benny Hinn taught that each member of the Trinity was also a Trinity and that the Godhead was nine instead of Three and then he got mad when he was taken to task and had to recant that teaching.    He didn't like hermeneutics, either.

[Guest]

 

Beloved, Be Smart

 

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16

 

Be Careful

 

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

 

Be Kind

 

To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. Titus 3:2

 

Be Wise

 

Set a watch, O LORD, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips. Psalms 141:3

 

~

 

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

 

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

 

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

 

Love, Your Brother Joe

[GoldenEagle]

 

@Fish Catcher Jim you said:

G. In short.........ones tithe can bring blessings or nothing or very little depending on the heart and faith of the one who Gives it. God said He would rebuke the devourer for our sake but if the tithe is not given correctly or out of a true heart then yea buy your food instead but for me and my house................We can simply NOT afford to NOT tithe. Every single penny that comes into our home gets tithed on.

G. Looks like the reference here "rebuke the devourer for our sake" is to Malachi 3:11 and "but for me and my house" is Joshua 24:15. Is this correct? Not sure where "if the tithe is not given correctly" comes from. Perhaps the reference is to giving cheerfully like in 2 Cor. 9:6-8?

 

I think you have a point about motivation. That said, God doesn't make promises as to our prosperity based on our giving. The tithe is not a mandatory, compulsory law for the Christian today. It was never transferred as a command from Israel to the Church. Unfortunately, I think we'll have to agree to disagree here.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

What interesting about this discussion is how far its strayed from the original question.

Tithing & giving: The letter and the Spirit of the law? Thoughts?

What the Bible does declare to the New Testament believer is this -- to be a CHEERFUL giver!

 

2Co 9:7  Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

 

First of all -- if you are not a CHEERFUL giver -- than you can't expect ANYTHING in return!  What's interesting is the word -- CHEERFUL!  It's the greek word -- hilaros

 

hil-ar-os'

From the same as G2436; propitious or merry (“hilarious”), that is, prompt or willing: - cheerful.

 

If you are not HILARIOUSLY giving -- then don't bother!  If you are GIVING because you're expecting something in return -- don't bother!

 

However, if you are giving because you want to fulfill the commandment of Jesus --

 

Act 20:32  And now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Act 20:33  I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.

Act 20:34  You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.

Act 20:35  In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"

 

Then I don't believe you can really OUTGIVE God!  I believe the TITHE is just a starting point of one's giving.  The blessings of God are fulfill not necessarily with a financial reward when you give -- but a spiritual reward which you cannot see!

 

If one is giving because he's being coerced into giving by a "guilt" or because of a promise of "financial" prosperity, then the motivation has totally been missed and thus is the error in giving.  However if you're motivation is to be a HILARIOUS giver -- then surely you will be blessed!

 

Surely everyone can agree with that? 

 

I agree that we're to give cheerfully.

God bless,

GE

 

[GoldenEagle]

To all who participated in this thread... Thank you and God bless!

 

We will continue to give cheerfully to our local church as God leads us. We consider giving a core part of our faith and an act of worship to God, regardless of what it is called. 

It may seem like simply semantics to argue the use of the word "tithe" but for many people, the word tithe is not seen in a positive light due to the use & abuse of the term. We have experienced this and I believe others in our church have as well. After extensive study of the Scriptures on the subject, I think it is a very weak case for a Christian to give a mandatory 10% or “tithe” to the local church.

 

To me, the modern tithe is a formulaic, inefficient, unnecessary way of teaching about giving. 

 

I think the teaching on tithing has done more damage than good in many cases. It makes some feel superior because "they're following the rules" and others inferior because they don't measure up to "God's standard" as some would call the tithe. 

 

Others may view the tithe as a way to ensure God’s blessing. I think you made it clear that the church does not promote the “prosperity Gospel”, but the idea that we can in any way earn God’s favor or “blessing” can creep in subtly. Which again nowhere in the Bible is tithing made mandatory for Christians. In fact Gentiles in Acts 15 were not commanded to tithe at all. Giving wasn't even mentioned.

 

We often emphasize at most churches the importance of knowing the context of the passages studied in the Bible, the culture of the target audience, and surrounding passages. But it seems that these guidelines for Bible study go out the window when talking about Matthew 23, Luke 11, Malachi 3, etc. and discussing tithing as it relates to the local church. I believe in approaching this topic, the main emphasis should be on Christian stewardship, not a “tithe”. Everything belongs to God - my cars, my house, my checkbook, my investments, my family, and my very life. I'm a manager of resources God has entrusted to me. I'm to be a good and generous manager and eventually give an account of the resources entrusted to me.
 

In my mind, the tithe which was compulsory giving doesn't even come into play into the discussion of stewardship. Other than to mention the fact that it was part of the Old Covenant God had with Israel. As Christ followers under the New Covenant, with our giving which by contrast is voluntary giving we should aspire to give a whole lot more than 10%.

 

The other side of the coin is the amount of debt people carry between credit cards, store cards, student loans, medical bills, personal loans, and mortgages, etc.

 

For Christians drowning in debt, I would say that if you can't start with 10%, give 1% the first month. Then give 2% the second month. Before you know it you'll be giving 10% or more in a year (or 12 months). And you won't even miss it!
 

As you can see, I’m very passionate about this subject. My heart’s desire is to see Christians experience freedom from financial bondage and utilize their God-given resources to expand His Kingdom. If you care to read further, here are more of my thoughts on the subject of tithing & giving: http://eaglesoaringhigher.blogspot.com/2015/04/why-teachings-on-tithing-have-failed.html

 

God bless,
GE

 

 

PS - If anyone is wanting to work on their finances, get out of debt, and become better stewards of what God has entrusted to them I've found these two groups useful on Facebook: The No Spend Challenge & Total Money Makeover