missmuffet Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,993 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,691 Content Per Day: 11.76 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 @ Fresno Joe. There is a difference in righteous clothing and spiritual clothing. The spiritual clothing is what God will give us in the next life if we are accounted worthy to have an inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. That is quite different from wearing clothing that God is pleased with in this life. Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, God does care that men dress like a man and women dress like a woman. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. Deuteronomy 22:5 Again, I would point out that while the Bible never identifies what is man's clothing and woman's clothing, we know certain garments pertain to one sex or the other. I know for instance that a sun dress is not a man's garment, in spite of the fact the Bible never specifically states "neither shall a man put on a sun dress." This is called application. I know the sun dress is a woman's garment, therefore I know it is an abomination for the man to wear it. Likewise, I know that jeans pertain to a man. Pants are a man's garment. I don't need the word pants to be specifically mentioned in the Bible to know that anymore than I need the word sun dress to be in the Bible. By the way, once again, this is off topic. The OP asked specifically about a Pastor who had long hair and tattoos. They asked if we would go to his church or to a church with a Pastor like that. I said no then, and I still would say no. They are violating other scripture. It is not because they aren't wearing a 3 piece suit. It is not because they aren't wearing priestly robes. It is because they are doing something the Bible calls a shame. The tattoos could have happened before they were saved, so I wouldn't make any rash judgments based on that, but if they continue with the long hair, that is a choice they are making. 1 Corinthians 11:1-16 1 BE ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. Isn't that something? Paul is actually telling us to obey ordinances. That sounds like obedience to laws to me. Amazing! Now, often times, when people address this passage, they make the mistake at beginning at verse 4, but in order to understand it properly, you must begin in verse 3, which is what I plan to do. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God. That lays the foundation for what God is about to tell us through the Apostle Paul. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. 5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishounoreth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head, because of the angels. According to verse 4, if a man prays or prophesies having his head covered, he dishonors his head. Verse 3 tells us the man's head is Christ, meaning that if you have a Pastor with long hair, he is dishonoring Christ. I don't want such a Pastor. According to verse 5, if a woman prays or prophesies having her head uncovered, she dishonors her head. Verse 3 just told us her head is "the man," meaning her husband. This clearly shows that the hair length is a sign we are under submission to our spiritual head, and when a man has long hair or a woman has short hair, they dishonor their head. It has nothing to do with homosexuals or heathen worship. It states in verse 7 that a man "indeed ought not to cover his head." That is telling me as a man, I ought not have long hair. This is an ordinance, or something taught by Paul, and back in verse 2, he tells us to keep his ordinances. There is more that can be said about this, but I am focusing on what the Bible is teaching us we are to do concerning hair length, so I am going to try to stay focused on that aspect. 11 Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. 12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. 13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Notice that the Bible says I am to judge this matter in myself. I have the Biblical right to judge if it is comely for a woman to pray to God if she has short hair. I just wanted to point that out. I can do that, even though they are another man's servants. I am judging according to an ordinance God gave us through the Apostle Paul. It has zero to do with personal preference. 14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair; it is a shame unto him? The Bible states that it is shameful for a man to have long hair. The Bible is the Word of God. This is the New Testament. It is a New Testament teaching, and therefore, it is an eternal truth I am to follow, as Paul already told me, right before giving us this passage back in verse 2, I am to "keep the ordinances" that he delivered to us. 15 But if a woman have long hair; it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. This is a very important verse, because it tells us the woman's long hair is her covering. It is not a veil, as many teach. There is nothing wrong with a woman wearing a veil, but if she has long hair, her head is already covered. 16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. Paul has just given us his judgment in the matter of hair length, and even given us permission to judge it within ourselves if a woman is comely if she prays or prophesies with her head uncovered. We know that when a man has long hair, he dishonors Christ when he prays or prophesies, and a woman dishonors her husband when she has short hair. At the same time, this is not mentioned as being a sin unto death. The strongest word used is a shame. Therefore, if someone wants to be contentious, and will not obey this ordinance given by God and delivered by Paul, you are not going to suffer eternal damnation for your choice to disobey. I won't go to a church with a leader who does something that is shameful to Christ. That is my position. Will the way we dress save us? Our good works alone can't save us, but we can do things that condemn us, like doing something we may think we have freedom to do, but that is offensive to others. Notice what it says in Romans 14:21-22. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. It was brought up by another person that one's ministry may be hindered if a Pastor has long hair and tattoos. Clearly that is true, as many of us will judge that to be contrary to scripture. The man may be contentious, and say that since he is saved by grace, he feels free to have long hair, just as the woman many feel ok with having short hair, and maybe even wearing pants to church or anywhere for that matter.. I only bring that up because you brought it up Fresno Joe, but the Bible makes it clear that if you go around doing something others in the church are offended by, though it may not be unclean to you, it can bring condemnation upon you. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Before we get into how impossible it is to please others all the time, and there is no question it is, that doesn't mean the scripture is made null and void, and we aren't capable of doing our best. God knows our heart, and he knows when we are doing our best, or just making excuses to justify our wrong behavior. If we are going into the topic of outward appearance, there is a lot more I could say about it. I could show how even those who claim it doesn't matter will at times say something is wrong about another person's appearance, like in the case where two women came against a woman for the dress she wore to church being too revealing. Who are they to judge another man's servant? They did this while calling others a legalist. We had a thread about "Christian nudists." I believe that is wrong, and so did just about everyone, but who are we to judge another man's servant based on outward appearance? Putting on apparel doesn't save us. While people claim we are not under the law, they sure will pull out the law to come against adultery or homosexuality. If the person claims to be a Christian, who are we to judge another man's servant. The law of Moses allows for polygamy, but people don't mind calling that a sin when the Bible is silent on the matter. Who are you to judge another man's servant? What people do is pick and choose all the time what things they can tolerate and what they cannot, what they like and what they don't like, and when convenient, they discount the Word, and when it helps them, they stand on the Word. Anyone that disputes that, I would be happy to meet in the Soap Box, and I will lay out my case of this blatant hypocrisy for all to see. I hope you will be more noble than the people of Thessalanica, and search the scriptures, because they clearly are not teaching what you are on hair length, clothing or tattoos. I have been called a legalist before because I am so conservative and fundamental.But I do know where to draw the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Your line is anything you make it. Who is to say you know where to draw the line? I draw the line based on scripture. What is your standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyKay Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 385 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 7,692 Content Per Day: 1.92 Reputation: 4,809 Days Won: 3 Joined: 05/28/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 I feel like I should say that I think each of us are serving God the best that we know how too. Rather we agree with long hair or disagree with long hair. Rather we agree with tattoos or disagree with tattoos. Of if we read the KJV Bible or the NIV . I do not think that anyone doing the best that they can to serve God should be criticized or look down upon by follow believers. That is all I want to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 If I was ever forced to get a tattoo I would get a small cross on my ring finger That would be kind of cool, bopeep. The only problem is.....they use a NEEDLE to apply those things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorningGlory Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.09 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 I feel like I should say that I think each of us are serving God the best that we know how too. Rather we agree with long hair or disagree with long hair. Rather we agree with tattoos or disagree with tattoos. Of if we read the KJV Bible or the NIV . I do not think that anyone doing the best that they can to serve God should be criticized or look down upon by follow believers. That is all I want to say. I have to agree, LadyKay. We need to try to not judge fellow believers by outward appearance. It's hard; we are just human but, if we ask God for His help, it's something we can all definitely get better at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 They are one of "the things of this world" But isn't everything "a thing of this world"? No, everything is not "a thing of this world" otherwise the apostle John would not make it a point for consideration (1 Jn 2:15-17). "The world" and "the things of this world" refer to all that is not "of the Father" which means that which has no basis in Scripture and in the character of God. Ask yourself "What is the origin and what is the purpose of tattoos?" Is tattooing something commanded or approved by God, or is it something connected with the Devil or paganism? Does Scripture have anything to say about it? Here's a quote to get Christians thinking: Throughout history the tattoo bears the mark of paganism, demonism, Baal worship, shamanism, mysticism, heathenism, cannibalism and just about every other pagan belief known. The tattoo has NEVER been associated with Bible Believing Christians. And whenever and wherever, in history Christianity appears – tattoos disappear. The only exception -- 20th century, lukewarm, carnal, disobedient, Laodicean Christians. http://www.av1611.org/tattoos/pagan.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ezra Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 134 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 8,142 Content Per Day: 2.34 Reputation: 6,612 Days Won: 20 Joined: 11/02/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 I feel like I should say that I think each of us are serving God the best that we know how too. Rather we agree with long hair or disagree with long hair. Rather we agree with tattoos or disagree with tattoos. Of if we read the KJV Bible or the NIV . I do not think that anyone doing the best that they can to serve God should be criticized or look down upon by follow believers. That is all I want to say. Sounds good, but is this backed up by Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I am not going to try not to judge fellow believers based on appearance, because the Bible tells me we are to judge outward appearance. Again, from the text... Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 1 Corinthians 11:13 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered dishonoureth his head. 1 Corinthians 11:4 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair; it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1 Corinthians 11:14,15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Butero Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I have gone through the passage and broken it down. I would be happy to go verse by verse with anyone that thinks they can dispute what I said about the passage, not based on commentaries or so called historians, but based on the actual text. BTW, that cross on the finger looks like a scab over a cut that happens to be in the shape of a cross. It looks awful. I don't get this fascination with tattoos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alphaparticle Posted May 31, 2015 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 48 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,363 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 403 Days Won: 5 Joined: 08/01/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 31, 2015 I may take this thread as a sign to pull the trigger on one I have been considering for a while. Well, depending on how the wife feels of course.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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