Serving Posted June 9, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hi Retrobyter, Thanks for adding your views .. besides a couple of things I'd like to discuss with you concerning some things you stated .. I think you may have misunderstood me on a few things Let’s get the simple part out of the way, first. We will finally “get to see His Face & hear His voice” when we finally get to see and hear the Master, Yeshua`, the Messiah, (the Lord Jesus Christ) for ourselves. “God," we are told, "is a Spirit" - a WIND (Hebrew: ruach; Greek: pneuma), John 4:24. We are also told, When we get to see His Face, it will be because it will be a literal event .. which is the context I was using it in brother .. we will literally look upon His Face .. since at that point, we will be spirit just like the angels John 14:9 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Jesus was not speaking about God being seen literally in the above Retro .. but by them seeing God through Him .. through His works & doctrine & mannerisms .. love & mercy etc etc etc Like Jesus Himself declares : John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. John 14:9 is in the same vein as the useage below .. John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. So just to be clear .. I was speaking of literally seeing His Face brother. The Father - God the Father - is NOT Someone we CAN see, EXCEPT through His Representative, the Son of God, Yeshua` (Jesus)! Don’t be misled by the philosophy/“theology” and rhetoric of the Mormons. God the Father is NOT just another being, like an angel or a human being. He TRANSCENDS ALL of His Creation! Again, I was speaking of seeing God after we are made spirit .. God is not invisible to spirit Retro .. Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. Secondly, the books “which were written” does NOT mean that they "were BEING written.” They were ALREADY "written." So, can you see that no writing was going on? It was already finished! They were merely being judged from what was ALREADY written! It doesn’t say this, so this is speculation on my part, but I surmise that the “books” were biographies written on each person’s life, recording the good and bad deeds of each person. No you misunderstood me .. of course the books are already written .. how else could it possibly be? Lol .. Anyway .. your speculation on the books is fine .. I don't necessarily think the books contain their biographies .. I believe the main content within the books is just their cut & dry recorded deeds .. after all .. the books do contain their works be they good or bad .. I think that is the main focus. Since these resurrected persons, becoming whole with their living bodies, were never so justified by God, their punishments by death may be deferred; however, it’s NEVER been about “their good deeds outweighing their bad deeds!" They are judged by their works .. whether they have done good or they have done bad .. that pretty much sums it up in a nutshell .. this is the 2nd judgment remember, we are not speaking of Christians gaining mercy here but unbelievers & the process they must go through before they can be considered worthy to receive grace .. now don't get me wrong .. they will still need to feed on the doctrine of Christ as a no brainer .. they won't be coming in as neutral children newly welcomed .. but as fellow members of Christ's family .. just think of the glory this beautiful display of mercy will bring our Lord .. Praise His Name! Anyway .. thanks Retro & blessings to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 9, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted June 9, 2015 Hi Sister, Nice to have you on this post .. Hi Serving. Yes I agree with all that you have said and can see it so clearly. I have been discussing this subject on another thread recently. This judgement appears different because it is "works based". Well .. Praise The Lord . ...however, the Lambs book of life is there also. All those who came to Christ during the millennium will be written in that book, and I can't see them going through the works test, but their salvation secured. But of course .. I was only focussing on the unbelievers .. So this judgement includes the 2nd resurrection also at the same time for those believers. ...but for those who are judged by their works, and the good weighed against the bad, and we know they will have sin in there because no man is without it, but lets say they have more good works than bad, then how do they automatically transfer into the Lambs book of life? It makes sense to me that they will have to prove themselves for a little while in the flesh,..meaning they have to be introduced to Christ first, and live his ways for a time....but I don't know. It's hazy for me. Can God just forgive them and make them perfect in one hit? This is the big question. Yes the millennials will be there I agree .. again, I was mainly focussing on the unbelievers for a reason I haven't mentioned yet Yes .. it is a hard one to know the process that unbelieving group that were shown mercy will have to go through I agree .. will they be taught during that virtual scriptural "blackout" after the millennium? Since 7 years passes after Gog & Magog are destroyed .. what is going on there? Of course God can imbue them with His Holy Spirit containing that word instantly if so desired .. but will He is the question? .. If not .. then they must otherwise go through it in the flesh .. again .. that 7 year interval after Gog & Magog is disconcerting .. what is up with that?? Something is being hidden there .. it must be something big for delaying the new heaven & new earth !! .. something is not yet complete of that I am sure. God bless you Sister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steward George Posted June 9, 2015 Group: Steward Followers: 110 Topic Count: 10,465 Topics Per Day: 1.25 Content Count: 27,780 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 15,481 Days Won: 129 Joined: 06/30/2001 Status: Online Birthday: 09/21/1971 Steward Share Posted June 9, 2015 Of course God can imbue them with His Holy Spirit containing that word instantly if so desired .. but will He is the question? .. If not .. then they must otherwise go through it in the flesh .. again .. that 7 year interval after Gog & Magog is disconcerting .. what is up with that?? Something is being hidden there .. it must be something big for delaying the new heaven & new earth !! .. something is not yet complete of that I am sure. What if the Gog / Magog war was a prophetic event detailing 2 separate and different wars of different times? Perhaps a dual-fulfillment hidden in the passage. Eze 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years (in Hebrew -- achrarit ha-shamim -- it's the ONLY TIME this phrase is used in the entire Old Testament) you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days (in Hebrew -- acharit ha-yamim -- used often to describe the time when the millennial Kingdom is established) I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted June 9, 2015 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,991 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,689 Content Per Day: 11.79 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 9, 2015 It is my understanding that they are two separate battles. Ezekiel 38:2-3 occurs during the tribulation.The first 31/2 years. Revelation 20:7-8 occurs at the end of the millennium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omegaman 3.0 Posted June 9, 2015 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 57 Topic Count: 1,546 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 10,320 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 12,323 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/15/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1951 Share Posted June 9, 2015 I confess I did not read all of this thread, and I feel certain someone has already mentioned this, but just in case, I will make this point (easier that reading all of the above). I noticed it was speculated of the two books, that one might be of book of good works and one of bad works, at least that is what I thought was being said. In any case, I think the books are both about works, but one book is the book of the saved, the other is the book of the lost. The lost, will be judged based on their shortcomings. This is not so for the saved, because the sins where covered by the lamb. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. Since this is the case, there are so sins left to be judged for the saved. What is left, is good works, for which the saved will receive rewards. I think the one book of the saved, the lamb's book of life, has the names of the saved. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth (the world) will worship him (the antichrist), whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. While the beast is making war with the saints, and overcoming them, these earth dwelling beast (antichrist) worshipers are the unsaved, but look who the other group is, those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. They were always known to be saved, before they ever did any works, good or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 (edited) Why hello George, pleasure to hear from you .. What if the Gog / Magog war was a prophetic event detailing 2 separate and different wars of different times? Perhaps a dual-fulfillment hidden in the passage. Yes George I hear you, there is a kind of duality at work, it's like history repeating itself all over again, Satan using a man to gather all the hostiles against God pre millennium & then it happens again post millennium soon as he is released from prison, slipping right back into his same old wicked ways of gathering the hostiles once more against God's workings in the world .. of that I'd agree heartily, but to be honest with you, in my discernment, that is where the similarities / duality end .. for my humble discernment. Eze 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years (in Hebrew -- achrarit ha-shamim -- it's the ONLY TIME this phrase is used in the entire Old Testament) you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. Ah yes, latter years .. though I do not know Hebrew or Greek, It did eventually become apparent that latter years was important because of it's uniqueness & as a consequence linked it's uncommon use as reference to the millennial period, chiefly, the end of the millennial age due to context, that is, seeing there will be no learning of war during the millennium & no wars until Satan is released right at the end of the millennium (since Rev 20 states that Gog & Magog occurs after the 1000 year reign), and the only other place Gog & Magog can be found is Ezekiel .. well, that is how it showed itself to me .. through the prophetic picture itself .. thus latter years to me, as with you, is also linked with the millennial period .. again, in my case, it refers to the end of the millennial period .. which is indeed near the very end .. hence latter years .. the final years of "old earth" before new heaven & new earth. As for some signposts in the verses which seal the deal for me .. & though my KJV uses different wording, I will just use the quotes in your version to save messing about with translations if you don't mind George .. anyway, the signposts that speak to me .. "Latter years" - already covered. "Restored from war" - restored as in "already accomplished" .. the land was in a state of already being previously "restored from war" .. which means it was at peace .. Israel has never been at peace since 48 .. she has had outright wars since 48 & ongoing military skirmishes & defensive military posturing's till today .. thus to me Israel is not yet "restored from war" since she still uses her military daily in whatever capacity that may be (it is still learning of war) .. only during the millennium will war & learning of war be prohibited by Christ Himself .. where not just Israel, but the whole world under Christ will be "restored from war" for that period where every man can be at rest (rest = millennial reign of peace) under his own vine .. again, learning of war still occurs worldwide including in Israel, until that learning of war ends, no nation is yet, in my opinion, "restored from war". Now because of translation differences, the other signposts are harder to convey for me through your version, yet the above made it easier for me .. lol .. ironic !! Nevertheless I will try, seeing those (signposts) have lost their power (for my stance) within the version above .. but here it is anyway .. "Gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel" - Since Israel was "restored from war", this gathering then speaks to me of all of Israel being there, that is, the lost tribes return home & Israel for the first time since Solomon lost the 10 tribes, become one nation again .. the two sticks become one again at last (Ezekiel 37:16-1717 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions: And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand. ) .. leading to "upon the mountains of Israel" meaning, to me, all the mountains of Israel that God originally gave to them which today are still not in Israel's possession as per the OT dimensions revealed to Abraham which are still yet to be restored. "which had been a continual waste" - spiritually speaking, those inhabiting the "mountains of Israel" have & even today are still spiritually desolate ... "waste" (since Christ was rejected and Judaism upheld) not forgetting those in Moslem hands, but are desolate (at that point) no more .. since they will know Christ during the millennium .. thus those mountains that were previously a "continual waste", that "had been a continual waste", means that by the time of the Gog Magog attack, he is attacking those mountains that are no longer "a continual waste", since when Gog & Magog attacks, those mountains that "had been a continual waste" when he attacked .. are no longer "waste".. that is, they were "restored" .. And only Christ's direct millennial rule cancels out the spiritual waste / desolation of Israel. "dwell securely, all of them" - again, this to me means to be "at rest" .. even if one single rocket hits Israel, she is not dwelling securely .. even if only one of Israel's citizens are merely injured by said rockets (which still happens) she is not dwelling securely, even if the tunnels are still being constructed to smuggle arms against Israel, she is not dwelling securely etc etc etc .. Israel still has walls & fences surrounding her borders .. her military (learning of war) still at their posts & around her borders etc etc etc .. but during the millennium, God promises to be their wall .. a metaphoric wall existing because of the worldwide peace enforced by Jesus Himself .. thus when Gog observes the land (where the Hebrews once again live up to that name "Hebrew" .. herders!!) and sees flocks of animals everywhere (God's millennial promise of abundance & cattle bearing land) & a land of milk & honey (Israel's blessings restored as of old) & a land which is un-walled (Israel still has walls & fences & military everywhere on her borders) .. well, this all speaks post millennium to me George .. Thus, to me, I can not see Gog & Magog being a possible duality with anything that occurs before the millennium other than the similarities I acknowledged further above.. but once the millennium ends .. all those conditions will already be in place (no walls - peace etc) as a consequence of Christ's 1000 years of peace. This is what I see anyway George .. any thoughts you'd like to add or disagree with is fine by me & I'd welcome your thoughts either way .. Blessings to you & yours. Edited June 11, 2015 by Serving Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 It is my understanding that they are two separate battles. Ezekiel 38:2-3 occurs during the tribulation.The first 31/2 years. Revelation 20:7-8 occurs at the end of the millennium. Hi bopeep, Thanks for adding your "voice" to this subject .. if you look at my answer to George, you will see my position & why it is different to what you have just stated I realize the majority of Christianity sees Gog & Magog as pre millennial .. I do not however. Nevertheless, it is a good subject I think all should scrutinize greatly ..thanks again bopeep .. blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serving Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 934 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 905 Days Won: 2 Joined: 09/05/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1969 Author Share Posted June 11, 2015 I confess I did not read all of this thread, and I feel certain someone has already mentioned this, but just in case, I will make this point (easier that reading all of the above). I noticed it was speculated of the two books, that one might be of book of good works and one of bad works, at least that is what I thought was being said. In any case, I think the books are both about works, but one book is the book of the saved, the other is the book of the lost. The lost, will be judged based on their shortcomings. This is not so for the saved, because the sins where covered by the lamb. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. Since this is the case, there are so sins left to be judged for the saved. What is left, is good works, for which the saved will receive rewards. I think the one book of the saved, the lamb's book of life, has the names of the saved. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth (the world) will worship him (the antichrist), whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. While the beast is making war with the saints, and overcoming them, these earth dwelling beast (antichrist) worshipers are the unsaved, but look who the other group is, those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. They were always known to be saved, before they ever did any works, good or bad. Hi Omegaman, If you had read the main point of this post, you would find that I am pointing out that the 2nd resurrection is the judgment of the "lost" as you put it .. (not concentrating on there being those who lived in Christ during the coming millennium being there too however since my point concerns unbelievers finding mercy after their works based judgment .. I see that works based judgment as a minimal requirement to be met before being considered to gain mercy to finish off that judgment .. seeing that mercy through Christ is the only way man can attain eternity) Thanks again bro .. Regards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry 2 Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 205 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2015 I confess I did not read all of this thread, and I feel certain someone has already mentioned this, but just in case, I will make this point (easier that reading all of the above). I noticed it was speculated of the two books, that one might be of book of good works and one of bad works, at least that is what I thought was being said. In any case, I think the books are both about works, but one book is the book of the saved, the other is the book of the lost. The lost, will be judged based on their shortcomings. This is not so for the saved, because the sins where covered by the lamb. As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. Since this is the case, there are so sins left to be judged for the saved. What is left, is good works, for which the saved will receive rewards. I think the one book of the saved, the lamb's book of life, has the names of the saved. Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth (the world) will worship him (the antichrist), whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. While the beast is making war with the saints, and overcoming them, these earth dwelling beast (antichrist) worshipers are the unsaved, but look who the other group is, those whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. They were always known to be saved, before they ever did any works, good or bad. Hi Omegaman, If you had read the main point of this post, you would find that I am pointing out that the 2nd resurrection is the judgment of the "lost" as you put it .. (not concentrating on there being those who lived in Christ during the coming millennium being there too however since my point concerns unbelievers finding mercy after their works based judgment .. I see that works based judgment as a minimal requirement to be met before being considered to gain mercy to finish off that judgment .. seeing that mercy through Christ is the only way man can attain eternity) Thanks again bro .. Regards. I accidentally responded to the wrong post, and deleted it. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry 2 Posted June 11, 2015 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 40 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 791 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 205 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2015 Of course God can imbue them with His Holy Spirit containing that word instantly if so desired .. but will He is the question? .. If not .. then they must otherwise go through it in the flesh .. again .. that 7 year interval after Gog & Magog is disconcerting .. what is up with that?? Something is being hidden there .. it must be something big for delaying the new heaven & new earth !! .. something is not yet complete of that I am sure. What if the Gog / Magog war was a prophetic event detailing 2 separate and different wars of different times? Perhaps a dual-fulfillment hidden in the passage. Eze 38:8 After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years (in Hebrew -- achrarit ha-shamim -- it's the ONLY TIME this phrase is used in the entire Old Testament) you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them. Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days (in Hebrew -- acharit ha-yamim -- used often to describe the time when the millennial Kingdom is established) I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. Dear Brother George, I hope you don't mind my input in answer to your post here. Notice that Gog is in the conflict at the end of the tribulation, and it takes 7 months to bury them at the start of the millennium. Ezk 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. Ezk 39:12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. This is part of Armageddon and Matthew 24:28 we read, For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Now notice what occurs at the end of the millennium. Revelation 20:7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." Revelation 20:8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea." Armageddon including Gog begins the millennium, whereas the battle of Gog & Magog, the nations from all over the world ends the millennium. I think I have this in its proper order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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