Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[DeighAnn]

On 1/16/2023 at 3:39 AM, Diaste said:

2 Thess 2:4...He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

That temple isn't the church. 

 

HOW exactly does 'falling away' from God and

SWITCHING to 'worshipping another in your heart and mind' because of DECEPTION (and the image) 

NOT fit that???
 

1Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on HIM shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of HIM who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

I think to be emphatic, either way, might not be such a good idea.  GETTING anyone to believe a TEMPLE must be built first, is no different than making someone believe a PTR has to take place first.  WE SHOULDN'T place anything that might make a person stumble at any point, IMHO.  

As soon as you show me where it must be constructed 'of the earth', my apology will quickly follow. 

[DeighAnn]

5 hours ago, Diaste said:

You aren't going to like this but...

"When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour."

That's all that's written and it's all I see. I could speculate, as others have, about the extent of this silence and it's purpose and meaning, but it would just that, speculation. I can say it's not the drawing back of the curtain revealing the trumpets.

That would not be possible since the Lord returns at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump hence, the trumps are blowing in some concurrent/successive fashion during the opening of seals.

OMG, You need TO GET A new bible, AND QUICKLY,

as that isn't how it ends. 

Someone has removed the entire ending of your bible 

Have you heard of a polysyndeton? If not, you've heard the song

"Conjunction junction what's your function?  hooking up words and clauses and phrases..." 

 

1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

 

'Apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words -- and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.'

[DeighAnn]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

The doctrine of pretrib is based in fear and plays on the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. That's the root cause of all false doctrine, not just pretrib. Pretrib is bad enough but it isn't the only problematic bit of doctrine out there. There's a flavor of false teaching somewhere to fit every palate.

How much do you think PTR s 'description' of what the tribulation of Satan will 'BE LIKE'  RULES in the minds of Christians today? 


How many even have HEARD 'they will be saying PEACE AND SAFETY'? 

Or have given any thought to - when there is ONE POWER, to which basically ALL the powers give their allegiance, there are NO WARS?   When one power has all the power those who come against are no more really than 'skirmishes'? 

How many even GET that there will be ONE RELIGION?  And everything will SEEM perfect, well, except for those 2 pesky witnesses...  

How many even GET that the DEATHS WILL BE from the DECEPTION, the lack of knowledge, aka SPIRITUAL DEATHS by worshipping a false idol and NOT carnal beheadings going on everywhere? 

BASICALLY NONE.  

He comes in with peace and prosperity and does what none have done before him, and that is, he gives.  ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is worship.....and life is easy.  

TRUE there will be those killed for not worshipping but THOSE ARE GODS ELECT and they are willingly, just like Christ going to be standing up.  MOST CHRISTIANS just need to 'get prepared' to not buy and sell and just hang back for awhile.  BUT THEY don't even know that much.  WHY?  PTR.   It has invaded the MINDSET of Christians to where they can't even PREPARE and those who do are made to look 'unreasonable' somehow.  

So what TRUTH do you possess about the tribulation?  If it had to be shortened because EVEN Gods elect would be deceived, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE DEATH of the flesh and fear and terror?   

NO, he works THOUGH SEDUCTION.  With flattery and lies.  THE rock and the hard place are THE REALITY of what is going on VS the DELUSION the UNREALITY brings.   The DELUSION is that Christ has returned and is ruling the world.  Miracles...the deadly wound HEALED.  The world was headed into total chaos but NOW it is becoming better than EVER.  Who can fight against that?  Who wants to?  Everything he says SOUNDS LIKE A SAVIOR.  TWO HORNS LIKE THE LAMB but speaks with a forked tongue.  He LOOKS LIKE THE LAMB....AND THE DECEPTION IS HE IS THE LAMB.

BUT THE PTR has everyone BELIEVING it is going to be hell on earth.  THAT JUST ISN'T TRUTH THAT IS JUST PURE CARNAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.  BUT WE CAN'T EVEN GET THERE BECAUSE WE CAN'T DISPELL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SEDUCED INTO BELIEVING WHAT ISN'T RIGHT IS.  dONE
 

[Diaste]

On 1/17/2023 at 10:13 AM, DeighAnn said:

How much do you think PTR s 'description' of what the tribulation of Satan will 'BE LIKE'  RULES in the minds of Christians today? 


How many even have HEARD 'they will be saying PEACE AND SAFETY'? 

Or have given any thought to - when there is ONE POWER, to which basically ALL the powers give their allegiance, there are NO WARS?   When one power has all the power those who come against are no more really than 'skirmishes'? 

How many even GET that there will be ONE RELIGION?  And everything will SEEM perfect, well, except for those 2 pesky witnesses...  

How many even GET that the DEATHS WILL BE from the DECEPTION, the lack of knowledge, aka SPIRITUAL DEATHS by worshipping a false idol and NOT carnal beheadings going on everywhere? 

BASICALLY NONE.  

He comes in with peace and prosperity and does what none have done before him, and that is, he gives.  ALL YOU HAVE TO DO is worship.....and life is easy.  

TRUE there will be those killed for not worshipping but THOSE ARE GODS ELECT and they are willingly, just like Christ going to be standing up.  MOST CHRISTIANS just need to 'get prepared' to not buy and sell and just hang back for awhile.  BUT THEY don't even know that much.  WHY?  PTR.   It has invaded the MINDSET of Christians to where they can't even PREPARE and those who do are made to look 'unreasonable' somehow.  

So what TRUTH do you possess about the tribulation?  If it had to be shortened because EVEN Gods elect would be deceived, DOES THAT SOUND LIKE DEATH of the flesh and fear and terror?   

NO, he works THOUGH SEDUCTION.  With flattery and lies.  THE rock and the hard place are THE REALITY of what is going on VS the DELUSION the UNREALITY brings.   The DELUSION is that Christ has returned and is ruling the world.  Miracles...the deadly wound HEALED.  The world was headed into total chaos but NOW it is becoming better than EVER.  Who can fight against that?  Who wants to?  Everything he says SOUNDS LIKE A SAVIOR.  TWO HORNS LIKE THE LAMB but speaks with a forked tongue.  He LOOKS LIKE THE LAMB....AND THE DECEPTION IS HE IS THE LAMB.

BUT THE PTR has everyone BELIEVING it is going to be hell on earth.  THAT JUST ISN'T TRUTH THAT IS JUST PURE CARNAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.  BUT WE CAN'T EVEN GET THERE BECAUSE WE CAN'T DISPELL THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SEDUCED INTO BELIEVING WHAT ISN'T RIGHT IS.  dONE
 

Pretrib affects a great deal but I have heard it's mostly a western church doctrine. Christians in other parts of the world don't buy it since they actually study the scriptures, not just dutifully attend church on Sunday, acting the part. 

I really don't know how the end of the age will play out in any great detail. 

I'm interested in 'when' Jesus returns. Not too much else matters in my mind. 

[Diaste]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:12 AM, DeighAnn said:

OMG, You need TO GET A new bible, AND QUICKLY,

as that isn't how it ends. 

Someone has removed the entire ending of your bible 

Have you heard of a polysyndeton? If not, you've heard the song

"Conjunction junction what's your function?  hooking up words and clauses and phrases..." 

 

1And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

6And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Yes. The several dozen bibles I have all say the same thing. 

I just don't think a normal reading by the common understanding of words sentences and context would lead anyone to believe 'And I saw...' is a phrase showing immediate succession. 

It doesn't. You believe it does. 

The wrath of God begins at the 6th seal and the 7th trump. This means the 6th seal is opened and the 7th sounds near to each other in a concurrence/succession. 

It is not true trumps only and ever follow the 7th seal. That's a dispensational pretribulational misconception. 

On 1/17/2023 at 9:12 AM, DeighAnn said:

'Apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words -- and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.'

Sure. But it's not the case here. If it was something like, "and cookies and cakes and pretzels and punch" then fine. It's not. It's "And I saw..." not "And next...". Just a little further in the reading of the chapter we do see succession and the language is not the same:

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire 

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: 

10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, 

12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten,

Not only do we see the trump and the immediate affect of the trump[succession, cause and effect] , we have the clear succession of trumps by the numbers. 

Such succession and cause and effect does not exist between verses 1 and 2.

"And I saw..." does not mean what was seen is a result of the previous event. 

It could be true but it cannot be proven true from verses 1 and 2 of Chapter 8 of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. 

I can prove it's not true by knowing Jesus arrives and wrath begins at both the 6th seal and 7th trump, to wit:

Rev 6: 6th Seal

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Rev 11: 7th Trump

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, "

This scenario is impossible unless the 6th seal and 7th trump are related in time or, wrath comes twice. Wrath does not happen twice so it's the 6th seal heralding the immediate appearance of Christ and the 7th trump heralding the victory and calling up the dead and living in Christ; both at the nearly the same time. 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 1/17/2023 at 8:57 AM, DeighAnn said:

HOW exactly does 'falling away' from God and

SWITCHING to 'worshipping another in your heart and mind' because of DECEPTION (and the image) 

NOT fit that???
 

1Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,

2As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

3If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on HIM shall not be confounded.

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of HIM who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

I think to be emphatic, either way, might not be such a good idea.  GETTING anyone to believe a TEMPLE must be built first, is no different than making someone believe a PTR has to take place first.  WE SHOULDN'T place anything that might make a person stumble at any point, IMHO.  

As soon as you show me where it must be constructed 'of the earth', my apology will quickly follow. 

Not concerned with what others believe. People will believe what they want no matter the facts. 

You don't believe a temple will stand again, that's fine. 

[JoeCanada]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:21 AM, Brother Duke said:

I do not believe in a treaty being confirmed by the anti-christ or a new physical temple.  The covenant that was confirmed was with God and Christ.  The temple is our body so no need there either.  Christ is the one that put an end to sacrifice and confirmed the New Covenant and was killed in the middle of his ministry,  not some anti-christ.   People are looking for the wrong signs.  

Hi Brother,

While I agree with you that there is no need for a temple for the Christians, I do believe that a temple of some sort will be built. It won't be for the saints of God, but for the Jews who do not believe in the Messiah, the Christ of God.

They will build it, or the antichrist will build it. Not sure. 

Jesus does give us a sign.... in Matt 24:15... " Therefore when you see the Abomination of Desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place..... "

So this would necessitate  some sort of altar, temple, place of worship, place of sacrifice, something for the antichrist to defile. 

Like I said, this is for the Jews. God has already made a one-time sacrifice for all those who believe. The Jews do not believe. They are still waiting for a Messiah.

 

On 1/15/2023 at 9:21 AM, Brother Duke said:

Here is the only sign I know of before the tribulation.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And the falling away is not the church departing in a secret rapture.

Yes sir. I agree 100%. 

[WilliamL]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:21 AM, Brother Duke said:

Here is the only sign I know of before the tribulation.

2 Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There are other clear Pre-trib passages, the two most notable being:

Matt. 24:15, 21 "...when you see the abomination of desolation... 21 then will be great tribulation..."

and

Daniel 11:40, 12:1  At the time of the end [then all the events of :40-45 following] ... 12:1 At that time...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that time. = the Great Tribulation.

[Montana Marv]

On 1/27/2023 at 12:48 PM, WilliamL said:

There are other clear Pre-trib passages, the two most notable being:

Matt. 24:15, 21 "...when you see the abomination of desolation... 21 then will be great tribulation..."

and

Daniel 11:40, 12:1  At the time of the end [then all the events of :40-45 following] ... 12:1 At that time...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that time. = the Great Tribulation.

It all depends if one means pre 70th Week. A pre 70th Week believer puts these two verses at the midpoint of the 70th Week, not necessarily pre trib. Yet our pre trib is before the onset of the 70th Week. So these two verses we consider as mid trib. A lesser tribulation of 3 1/2 years under the rule of A/C, then the great tribulation of 3 1/2 yesrs under the rule of Satan.

The finality of it at the Second Coming when Daniel's 6 tasks will be fulfilled by Daniel s people. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[WilliamL]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

It all depends if one means pre 70th Week. A pre 70th Week believer puts these two verses at the midpoint of the 70th Week, not necessarily pre trib. 

The whole notion of a future 70th week is one of many unsupportable presumptions that far too many people take for granted. Daniel 9 says nothing at all about the end times, or any comparable term.