Defense of the Post-Trib / Pre-Wrath Position

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

I do not believe of that manner: "a hostile takeover of the earth".

Well then how would you describe the Lord's return, when He decimates the armies that are arrayed against Him?  And how is it that the scripture is replete that He will rule the world with a rod of iron?  That sure sounds like a hostile takeover to me.  I don't get the feeling that there will be an election and we vote Him in charge.

And while the earth may be the Lord's, He has not come to claim it yet and it is still ruled by a psychotic super cherub bent on destroying all that God has created.  Paul stated very clearly that Satan is the prince of  the power of the air.   He is not going to just side step and allow Yeshua to take charge.   You advise others to look at the scripture, you might want to take a dose of your own medicine.

In the temptations that were thrown at Yeshua, Satan stated he would give Yeshua all the nations of the world if He would bow down and worship him.  That would not be a temptation if Satan didn't own and control the nations of this world.  Satan has had total control of the nations and the world since the fall of Adam.   Remember when the angel had to fight against the "prince of Persia" 21 days and only was able to get thru to Daniel when the angel Michael came to help him?   Daniel 10.  And after he talked with Daniel, he would have to go and fight against the prince of Greece.  These "princes" are fallen angels that control the world nations and governments.    They will have to be forcibly overthrown by Yeshua when He returns to set up His kingdom on this earth.

And it still remains.  Yeshua was quite clear in Hosea and Matthew that the Hebrew people (all the tribes) still have a purpose and calling.  He is not going to return till they  acknowledge their offense of rejection, turn to Him, and petition His return to rescue them.   It has nothing to do with the Church or what we think about it.  And by extension, it also means that the Church has not replaced the Hebrew people in the plan of God.   YHVH  can walk and chew gum at the same time.  There is a called out redeemed group known as the Ekklesia or Church, but there is also a elect (see Isaiah) national group known as Hebrews that also have a purpose in the plan of God.

You say that Judaism is a Satanic religion.  How is following the Torah satanic?  If you are basing it on their rejection of Yeshua, Paul makes it very clear that it is out of ignorance that they reject.  And the Church has had a lot to do with that.  The way the Church has historically treated the Hebrew people, it is no wonder why they are loathe to accept Yeshua.  They see Yeshua as a pagan idol.  They really have not been presented the true Yeshua, the promised Messiah.   They are blind now, but their eyes will be opened, and in fact are opening now, to see that the one they have rejected is indeed the promised Messiah.  Then the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham will be fully realized.   But they had to be the way they have been for the last 2000 years, so that the gentiles could hear the gospel and accept Yeshua and so the prophecies in scripture will be fulfilled.     You are calling something satanic that was predicted and known by YHVH all along.  The Jewish belief system is what has kept the Hebrew people as a distinct identity thru the centuries to bring them to the this time to fulfill what the prophets said.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

In fact we are living in the times of the 'hostile takeover'. The Lord is coming to take back from the hostiles what is His.

More to the point; it's less a 'hostile takeover' in which we live than the consequence of the weakness of the flesh. 

Mankind started this and is the major player in relinquishing the earth to the 'hostiles'; which role continues to this day.

We are the 'hostiles'. We are our own worst enemy. "I have seen the enemy, and it is us." The Lord is coming to fix that.

[OldCoot]

8 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

The blackness of the darkness of the world of the Devil will be annihilated, even the two heavens that there are, as said Peter the Apostle:

That would be true regarding the period after the millennial reign of Messiah, which is later than the period we are discussing, the period when Yeshua returns to this earth.  Don't confuse different periods as being the same period.

 The kingdom parables of Matthew 13 paint a different picture than what you stated as happening at the coming of Yeshua to rule on this earth. Evil and sin remains even in the 1000 year Messianic Kingdom.

If the "blackness of the darkness of this world of the Devil" is annihilated, then why does Yeshua need to rule with a rod of iron? (Psalms 2:9 and Revelation 2:26-27)  Why is that those who refuse to come to Jerusalem at the feast of Tabernacles will have rain withheld from their land?  (Ezekiel) And how is it that at the end of the 1000 years, when Satan is released, is he able foment a major rebellion against the Lord? (Psalm 2 and Revelation 20)

And if the Millennial Reign of Yeshua is so perfect, why is it only lasting 1000 years and not forever?

You claim that the war during Yeshua's return does away with all that.   Scripture doesn't support that claim.

Edited October 27, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

20 minutes ago, Diaste said:

In fact we are living in the times of the 'hostile takeover'. The Lord is coming to take back from the hostiles what is His.

More to the point; it's less a 'hostile takeover' in which we live than the consequence of the weakness of the flesh. 

Mankind started this and is the major player in relinquishing the earth to the 'hostiles'; which role continues to this day.

We are the 'hostiles'. We are our own worst enemy. "I have seen the enemy, and it is us." The Lord is coming to fix that.

Not really.  See the post above.  

Specifically, the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 along with passages in Ezekiel and the Psalms don't paint the wonderful Kumbaya picture you do.  You are individually spiritualizing the context when there is no reason to do so.  

When Yeshua has returned and is ruling from Jerusalem per the scripture, sin will still be a problem.  Many confuse the millennial reign here on earth with some perfect idea of heaven.  They are not the same entities.  During the millennial reign on the earth of Yeshua, there will be sin, death, even rejection of His authority.  This is why He will need to rule with a rod of iron as per the scripture.  And discontent with Yeshua's running things will lead to Satan being able to foment one last major rebellion when he is released.  

Like I stated in the last post, if the Millennial Kingdom is so perfect, then why does it only last 1000 years and not forever?  Just that fact alone lets us know that the Millennial Kingdom is far from perfection.

Edited October 27, 2018 by OldCoot
Spelling

[Steve Conley]

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

The Pre-Wrath model for the timing of the catching up of the saints is the teaching of the Apostles, Prophets, and our Lord Jesus Christ. It is a synthesis of what is true and correct about the pre and post trib models, but unlike them, it does not conflict with any of the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. The pre-wrath model is a harmony of all that Christ, the Prophets, and the Apostles had to say about the matter.

Here is a short synopsis of the pre-wrath model for the timing of the rapture.

• There is a future week of seven years spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Dan. 9:27) which comes at the end of the present age (Mat 24:3).
• This seven-year period of time is initiated by the Antichrist when he confirms the covenant with many (Dan. 9:27).
• In the midst (middle) of the seven years the Antichrist, or Beast as he is called by John in the book of Revelation, sits in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and demands to be worshipped as God (2 Thes 2:3-4).
• This revelation of the man of sin is the abomination of desolation that Jesus refers to (Matt 24:15).
• When this takes place, Jesus says, “then shall be great tribulation” (Matt 24:21).
• The great tribulation is an unprecedented time of violent persecution of both Israel and believers in Jesus Christ, the Church (Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1; Matt 24:9, 21-22; Rev 6:9-11; 7:9-14; 12:11-17; 13:7,15).
• To prevent the Beast and the False Prophet from killing every last Christian the great tribulation is shortened (Matt 24:22).
• Jesus says that “immediately after the tribulation of those days” (the days in context it is the great tribulation of verse 21) the cosmic sign, which announces the arrival of the Day of the LORD, happens (Matt 24:29).
• There is a great earthquake, the sun, moon, and stars go dark, and Jesus is seen coming in glory in the clouds of heaven (Rev 6:12-14; Matt 24:30).
• The dead in Christ are resurrected (1Cor 15:51-52). The persecuted saints (the elect), who remain alive, lift up their heads, look up, and are caught up by the angels to be with Jesus in the clouds (Luke 21:28, Matt 24:31).
• The unbelieving Beast followers hide themselves for fear of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev 6:15-17).
• The very same day there is half an hour of silence in Heaven then the Lord begins to pour out His wrath in the form of the trumpet judgements (Rev 8).

This teaching is extremely important to communicate to pretribulationists, because their eschatological misunderstanding leaves them unprepared to face the unprecedented violent persecution and demonic deception of the great tribulation. They do not prepare for that which they believe they will never face. It is those who have embrased the great escape (pre-trib rapture) that are at the greatest risk.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

[OldCoot]

Marv Rosenthal, one of the primary proponents of the pre-wrath position is a fine man and a committed Christian brother.  But I still disagree with his analysis promoting the pre-wrath position.  That's ok.  We can disagree on a these sideline issues and still maintain Christian fellowship. 

7 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

This teaching is extremely important to communicate to pretribulationists, because their eschatological misunderstanding leaves them unprepared to face the unprecedented violent persecution and demonic deception of the great tribulation.

That there is quite an assumption.  Mostly that anyone can actually be "prepared" for what is coming down the pike.  Most folks in all eschatological camps are woefully ignorant of what is going to transpire on the earth.  Just imagine all the evil that has been done over the span of man's existence on this planet.  And it will pale in comparison to what is coming.  There is no real frame of reference to prepare for what is coming.  Even Yeshua said that many would go into cardiac arrest just seeing what is coming upon the earth. 

There is a lot more to the meaning behind what Yeshua said regarding "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be" than many folks have any grasp off. What was going on there was bad enough to cause YHVH to destroy most of everything except 8 people.  And Yeshua said that the GT period would be worse than that.  How does anyone really prepare for that?  I am not sure it is possible.

The question then becomes, knowing that it will be the worse period of time in all history, why would Yeshua allow those He has already redeemed go thru that?  What would be the purpose?  To purify those He has redeemed?  Well such an assertion would imply that Yeshua's redemption was not enough to get the job done.  That is bordering on blasphemy, but at least an insult to YHVH.  At the very least it doesn't make sense in regard to those already redeemed.    So what would be the purpose of causing the redeemed to go thru that period?   There really is no good answer to that without bordering on some sort of "purgatory" idea or some form of works righteousness concept.  Either way, it implies that the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua just wasn't good enough to redeem anyone. 

And is the pre-trib "escapism"?  You bet your life it is!!   But no more so than turning to the Lord and trusting in Him is escapism from eternal punishment.   What part of redemption is not essentially escapism?

Edited October 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

22 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

No, I do not. If you know the Word of God, you should know that Yeshua did not say that the father of the Jews is a boogeyman, but the Devil, that is the Old Serpent and Satan, which will be cast into the bottomless pit in this time of Apocalypse. 

By the way, according to the book of Revelation 12:v.3-4, the Devil's body has 7 heads, 10 horns and a TAIL, which are the church of Satan throughout the earth, whose church is formed by Catholicism, and Judaism, and also by dead evangelical denominations and modern pseudo-Christians like the evangelical followers of diabolical movements so-called Gospel, and this revelation of what the Devil's body looks like and it is real has nothing to do with your boogeyman, do you understand?
 

I do not believe of that manner: "a hostile takeover of the earth". It because the Word of God (God is a title, the Word is God) says clearly that: "The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof."  The earth is not of the Devil, who is the father of the Jews, except few of them which believe in JESUS really, yea, the earth is not of the Devil, actually Satan is an Usurper, and now he will be cast down into the bottomless pit, by the Power of the Word of God.

Yea, Satan will be cast down into the bottomless pit, and the followers of him, that are, the Catholic Beast, the Pope, and his satanic church (Rev.13:1-10), the woman that is the Great Whore, which rides upon the Beast with his 7 heads, they will be cast into the hell's fire, togetherly with the 10 horns representing the 10 tribes of Isreal which rebelled themselves against the house of David (1Kings 12: 16-19. JESUS is of the house of David).

These 10 tribes, today involved in a satanic religion called Judaism, which will have as head the false messiah, an IMPOSTOR, they will be guided and leaded by him,  the son of perdition, the man of sin, who was born from one of the 10 rebel tribes (tribe of Dan), who will "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the holy place, even in the temple of God in Jerusalem, shewing himself that he is God. Actually he is the Abomination of Desolation, who will reign in the second period of de 42 months or 1.260 days or yet three years and half.  . 

What is written above describe the two parts of Devil's body, that ares his satanic church in the whole earth. 

I must now speak of the TAIL of the body of Satan, that is the third part of his satanic church, which is the third part of his accursed body.

In fact, the Devil with his cursed body was and is cursed by the Most High God and Almighty from the beginning. The prophet Isaiah - Isaiah 9: v.15-16 - is who explains to us what is or who the devil's TAIL is, I do not have to explain, whoso reads, let him understand:
 
v.15 The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the TAIL.

16 For the leaders of this people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed.

verse 14: 14 Therefore the Lord will cut off from Israel head and tail, branch and rush, in one Day.    (This Day already arrived and this prophecy will fulfil itself LITERALLY)

JESUS left very clear, saying: Mat.25:v.41

41 Then shall he - JESUS - say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels:

Decided to revive your post.  I listened today to what the guy who shot up the Pittsburgh synagogue today said and had posted online and the quoted portion above regarding the Jews sounded came to mind.   Hitler and the Nazis quoted Luther extensively regarding their justification for the holocaust against the Jews also.  And much of it was the same Judaism is Satanic rant that was posted above.  

Kinda makes one wonder how this fits in "I will bless them that bless you and curse you that curse you" that YHVH promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and all their descendants.  Especially when one says they are Satanic or even goes so far as to try and use secular reasoning to suggest there are no real Jews anymore and all that make that claim are imposters.

More and more I am made aware that the time is getting short.

Edited October 28, 2018 by OldCoot

[enoob57]

As this wicked influence rants about the Jews remembering Jesus cried out on the Cross Father forgive them they know not what they do... easy seeing which spirit this is of!

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Marv Rosenthal, one of the primary proponents of the pre-wrath position is a fine man and a committed Christian brother.  But I still disagree with his analysis promoting the pre-wrath position.  That's ok.  We can disagree on a these sideline issues and still maintain Christian fellowship. 

I never thought to call the end of the age, the return of Jesus, our redemption, the first resurrection and the beginning of our eternal life 'sideline issues'. Weird.

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

  Most folks in all eschatological camps are woefully ignorant of what is going to transpire on the earth. 

But you feel free to generalize? I very much doubt you have talked to "most people in all eschatological camps" to know this is the truth. Why, oh why, can we not just stick with biblical fact?

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

There is a lot more to the meaning behind what Yeshua said regarding "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be" than many folks have any grasp off. What was going on there was bad enough to cause YHVH to destroy most of everything except 8 people.  And Yeshua said that the GT period would be worse than that.  How does anyone really prepare for that?  I am not sure it is possible.

You have to quote the complete thought here. 

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. "

This only means the world will be unaware their destruction is coming. Even if it meant more we know what was going on in the days of Noah;

"The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time."

That's pretty bad. It won't take much to imagine the depraved behavior by mankind in the days of Noah.

It's not preparing for the events that are coming, it's preparing out hearts and minds in the spirit of truth so that even as we die our lives are secure in the love of our Father. I don't think anyone is talking about physically preparing for unprecedented events and conditions, that just seems to completely miss the point.

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

The question then becomes, knowing that it will be the worse period of time in all history, why would Yeshua allow those He has already redeemed go thru that?  What would be the purpose?  To purify those He has redeemed?  Well such an assertion would imply that Yeshua's redemption was not enough to get the job done.  That is bordering on blasphemy, but at least an insult to YHVH.  At the very least it doesn't make sense in regard to those already redeemed.    So what would be the purpose of causing the redeemed to go thru that period?   There really is no good answer to that without bordering on some sort of "purgatory" idea or some form of works righteousness concept.  Either way, it implies that the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua just wasn't good enough to redeem anyone. 

I have heard these emotional pleas many times. It's a desperate act to eschew fact and fall back on emotion and casting doubt. Everyone of these types of weak arguments concerning scriptural truth always reminds me of,  "Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?" This casts doubt, is a partial quote, and an emotional plea; by Satan.

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

But no more so than turning to the Lord and trusting in Him is escapism from eternal punishment.   What part of redemption is not essentially escapism?

That's actually pretty good. Not proof of anything, but still a good point.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Not really.  See the post above.  

Specifically, the kingdom parables of Matthew 13 along with passages in Ezekiel and the Psalms don't paint the wonderful Kumbaya picture you do.  You are individually spiritualizing the context when there is no reason to do so.  

When Yeshua has returned and is ruling from Jerusalem per the scripture, sin will still be a problem.  Many confuse the millennial reign here on earth with some perfect idea of heaven.  They are not the same entities.  During the millennial reign on the earth of Yeshua, there will be sin, death, even rejection of His authority.  This is why He will need to rule with a rod of iron as per the scripture.  And discontent with Yeshua's running things will lead to Satan being able to foment one last major rebellion when he is released.  

Like I stated in the last post, if the Millennial Kingdom is so perfect, then why does it only last 1000 years and not forever?  Just that fact alone lets us know that the Millennial Kingdom is far from perfection.

I don't think I have posted my thoughts on the Millennial kingdom in a reply to you. I have had some discussion on who populates the kingdom, and the kingdom in relation to Ezekiel 38-39, but that wasn't in this thread. 

My point was; the hostile takeover occurred in Genesis 3, which condition will last until Rev 10 events begin and run their course. The King is coming to rectify the situation and put down the rebel leader whose foment led to the conditions extant.

We are the hostiles, Jesus is the righteous authority and will reclaim the earth, taking it back from the ones who ruined the perfection, us. 

It's not 'hostile' to impose rules then enforce those rules under the legitimate patent of righteous nobility and authority; it's the proper order of creation.

That being said, I agree with the general condition of the Millennial Kingdom, e.g., mankind will populate this kingdom, they will be unruly, some will not obey the King's commands, and there will be a war at the end.